Kel-Tec PF-9 versus Kahr/Other Options

[tarafore]

I am finding that, even with a thick, rigid belt, that carrying a Glock 27 unbalances my hips and causes me back pain.

I could potentially balance this out by carrying two, but I can't really afford a second one right now, and that would be awfully cumbersome.

I'm considering selling the G27 and buying a Kel-Tec PF9. With my family history of joint problems, I have to be careful. The PF9 is 2/3rds the weight of the Glock, so hopefully it will be a happy medium.

I've had a good experience with the Kel-Tec P32, which I've pocket carried for well over six years. The problem is, a .32 with only rudimentary sights is not a great defensive weapon. I bought the Glock because it had more power and (more importantly) better sights. The PF9 has both of those, (I actually prefer 3-dot sights to the dot under a bar sights the Glock comes with), but it holds fewer shots than the Glock.

I'm looking for a deep concealment gun, not a full-size - I know the PF9 isn't going to be as easy to shoot as a G29 or G17, but that's fine. I don't need it for that. I plan on using a tuckable IWB holster, if I can find one for it (I'll need to see if Crossbreed makes one).

But I do want to hear from ZS'ers with personal experience with the PF9. How's the trigger? Have you had any trouble with the later models (I know the first run was rife with the usual Kel-Tec beta test crap)? How's reliability? How accurate is it? If I can't hit quickly and reliably at 10 yards, at the VERY least, I'm gonna look somewhere else.

Thanks!

ETA - if there's something similarly light in 9mm out there that I should try instead (and by similarly light, I mean 20 oz, loaded, at the most), I'd be willing to listen to alternative suggestions, so long as they're not crazily expensive. I've heard good things about the Kahr (CW9, I think). Is it comparable in size and weight? Is the quality worth the price difference?

[Paladin1]

Well your in luck, I have first hand experience with both.

I carried a G27 for years and while I loved the gun (despite it's rather snappy recoil) It is such a little chunk o' gun that many times I left it at home or in the car. Especially in the summer when my usual garb is shorts and t-shirt.

I switched to a PF9 a little over a year ago, and WOW. It's a night and day difference. I always carry it now and it's easy to slip into a pocket, belly band, gangsta style, or holster. I have a cheap Fobus that is a OWB rig and with a baggy shirt it disappears.

The downsides are the trigger and recoil.

The trigger is about the worst trigger I have ever felt, with long travel and what feels like 20lbs of pull. The upside to this is that an AD is virtually impossible, so I'm fine with it pointing at Mr. Happy.

The recoil is SNAPPY to say the least. With the Corbon DPX I run in it it's all I can do to hold on to the little bitch. It's not fun to take to the range and shoot, but that is a trade off that I knew I was going to make with such a light platform.

That being said, it does exactly what I want it to do. It's easy to conceal, super comfortable to carry, and 8rds of 9mm +P's make me all happy inside.

I can hit what I aim at at the distances that you would typically have to engage people behaving badly. The stat is most defensive shootings happen within 20-25 feet.

And yes, I made sure I got one with the later serial #. I've had zero problems with mine.

[SkyGod]

I had a glock 26 for a decade as my off duty gun. Loved it. When I got it, it was one the lightest 9mm available. Shot just as well as my full size on duty G17 out to about 20 yards.

Now I have a PF9. The gun goes with me everywhere. I have a pocket holster for it that I sewed a flap onto. The thing looks like one of those over sized wallets or dayplanners in my back pocket.

It is a great CCW gun, but it is not a G26. Nothing feeds ammo like a glock. So I am more conserned about the PF9 jamming. Though I haven't had a jam yet. Never the less, I use TAP ammo because I believe it feeds more like ball ammo.

IMHO the PF9 is also about half as accurate as my old G26. The stiff trigger makes longer range shots difficult. The PF9 is a close range defensive weapon. To help with accuracy, Santa is getting me a crimson trace laser sight. I oped for the laser because I feel it was a better investment than upgraded sights, considering the likely ranges and conditions I would have to use a CCW gun.

If you have big hands like me get the trigger shoe from keltec to add meat to the factory trigger. The factor trigger pinched my fat finger against trigger guard. The shoe came with a sharp edge at the base which I filed round for increased comfort.

If you are going to carry it in your waist band. Also consider a factory belt clip.

[tarafore]

Well your in luck, I have first hand experience with both.

The downsides are the trigger and recoil.

The trigger is about the worst trigger I have ever felt, with long travel and what feels like 20lbs of pull. The upside to this is that an AD is virtually impossible, so I'm fine with it pointing at Mr. Happy.

Thanks!

Have you shot the P32/P3AT or the P11? How does the PF9's trigger compare to those?

[Sheol151]

I wouldn't trade a glock for a keltec....Triggers are horrible. I can't hit anything with em. Good backup guns i guess.

I've never had a hard time hiding my G26, and in my experience, shooting mouse guns is uncomfortable and iffy as far as accuracy goes. They're called belly guns for a reason. If its worth carrying a weapon, its worth carrying the right weapon IMO.

Have you considered a deep concealment holster for the G27?, If your going to be weaing shorts how about cargo shorts and a pocket holster? Something that places the weapon under your belt? May be easier to hide. But i think buying a shirt that's one size too big is just as easy.

[Paladin1]

Well your in luck, I have first hand experience with both.

The downsides are the trigger and recoil.

The trigger is about the worst trigger I have ever felt, with long travel and what feels like 20lbs of pull. The upside to this is that an AD is virtually impossible, so I'm fine with it pointing at Mr. Happy.

Thanks!

Have you shot the P32/P3AT or the P11? How does the PF9's trigger compare to those?

I have owned a P3AT which has just as much recoil and just as crappy a trigger as the PF9, and is just so slightly bigger as to make no practical difference. So why not go for the 9mm all else being equal.

Rent one at a range if possible, see if it works for you. Keep in mind that it is what it is. A super small, light gun that's easy to carry and conceal and still can effective in a typical SD situation.

I already mentioned it's not a fun gun to shoot with the trigger and recoil. But I don't think that is going to be a concern at the time that I need it to save my ass.

[roscoe]

Have you considered a j-frame in .38 special? They are very light and decent .38 ammo will definitely do the job. Ruger has a new one that is very light with an interesting new trigger system. The downside of those compact 9mm pistols (KelTec, Kahr) is the controllability of 9mm in such a small package. They are not fun to practice with because they are at the intersection of the curves of maximum power and minimum weight.

I have read that Walther has a fairly new single-stack 9mm (the PPS, I believe) that is pretty compact. That is probably the best intermediate between Glock size and the Kel Tec size. S&W also make some single-stack 9mm pistols that are pretty compact.

[Shadowsbane]

I have always enjoyed shooting my father in laws p11. Little too big for pocket carry, but a good product.

[mpi]

edit mistake.

[mpi]

i have all the kt pistols and love them. mine are reliable and accurate for what they are. i carry a p3at of pf9 every single day.

That said, if you have a history of joint problems you may not want to shoot the pf9 too much as it's a snappy recoiler and will make your hand sore at the range in short order! I know older KT'ers that had to stop shooting their pf9's due to joint problems, when combined with the the pistols snappy recoil made their hands hurt too badly to function!

[gelgoog]

well I think the Kahr makes excellent single stack firearms. Their DAO triggers are very nice, they are accurate and just well made. However reputation has it that their polymer guns can often have feed issues( not sure why) where their all steel guns seem to be almost flawless. However keltec's often have issues as well so given the choice I would take a Kahr every time.

[Absintheur]

I have a Kel-Tec PF-9 and have enjoyed shooting it for some time with about 700 rounds through it now. Mine is carried as a BUG either in a Don Hume J.I.T. worn crossdraw which allows not only a stronghand cross body craw but a weakhand twist draw as well. The twist draw is fast with practice...as proven by Hickock. It also gets a good bit of time in a Kramer Confidential or similar T-Shirt. This is worn under a shirt with buttons and I would be very willing to pop a few off to get to the gun if needed. I actually have a couple dress shirts where I had the buttons replaced with snaps to afford fast access for when I have to wear suit and tie. I have thought about adding velco as well to some.

The PF-9 trigger is going to feel just like your P32. I have no problem with it but I am also a long time revolver shooter so the long pull doesn't faze me. It is snappy in recoil but not uncomfortable at all and mine has been dead reliable. I normally carry it as a BUG to my H&K P7M8.

[Sw1tch]

My dad just bought a PF9 for his carry gun and I have to say I really do like it. We bought it used, and it seems to have been carried much and shot little, as there was dust and pocket crud inside, but very little actual wear. The trigger, while it does have a long pull, is smooth and even (at least on this pistol) Compared to my G19c I can't say it's something I'd prefer at the range, but this gun isn't a range gun. It has snappy recoil and is not pleasant to shoot for an extended period of time.

But this gun isn't designed for that.

It's a carry gun, and only what I would call a carry gun. Kel-Tec did have issues with the first batches of the guns but from what I hear quality has gone up considerably and I could easily see myself carrying a PF9 over my G19c when wearing light summer clothes. People will say the trigger is like a staple gun or whatever other thing they feel it resembles, but in a self defense scenario you pull the trigger and it goes bang. Chances are you won't be thinking about how much smoother your custom range gun is when you're trying to deal with a threat.

They're great guns IMO, you won't be disappointed.

[Loquinho]

See my review of the Kahr PM9 here:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p1061696

I'll try to post up another update now that I've been carrying it for a few months.

[mr.trooper]

The Kahr is a more refined gun, but IMO its not refined enough to justify the additional price.

[Mr.Pliskin]

Do you carry extra mags for the G27? 2 mags on the opposite side of the gun should ballance it out pretty well.

On the other side of the question charter arms is coming out with a 9mm snubby fairly soon "we'll see" Im not sure about the weight of the gun but it may be a possibility. And of course the pf9 which I have wanted as a bug for a while now.

[stefan2004]

nutnfancy on youtube did a good comparison between the PF-9 and PM-9

its a good 35 mins long though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNRbkOdUgms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yossarian]

If you're looking at the CW-9 vs. the PF-9 I'd actually go with the keltec. Kahr's CW line is just kind of underwhelming. I've got a K-9 that I like but its a heavy little bastard. The P and PM series are good guns but very pricey. Is the difference justifiable, not to me, but apparently it is to some.

[gelgoog]

nutnfancy on youtube did a good comparison between the PF-9 and PM-9

its a good 35 mins long though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNRbkOdUgms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lol I love his reviews, but damn his voice makes me think airsoft mall ninja

[Czechnology]

lol I love his reviews, but damn his voice makes me think airsoft mall ninja

His voice makes me want to punch a baby panda bear to death.

[Mountain Rooster]

What kinda holster do you use?

[RebelKangaroo]

Something a bit bigger than the Kel Tec or the Kahr but not much heavier (about 20 Oz unloaded): the Walther PPS.

I find its just big enough to be pretty comfortable to shoot vs. the Kahr and Kel Tec. It doesn't punish your hand, and the trigger is great. Its also very accurate for a smaller pistol.

It can come with 6, 7, or 8 round magazines. The 6 fit flush, the 7 is a slight extension that I've found the most convenient for comfort vs. concealment, and the 8 is the longest and makes the grip about as long as a full size Glock.

It has a safety exactly like the Glock mounted on the trigger and its every bit as thin as the PF9 or PM9. The only major difference aside from the slight bump in length is the magazine release is what's called a Euro style and built into the trigger guard as a lever. Very easy to release the magazine with your trigger finger in this configuration.

Its slightly more expensive than the other two, but not by too much. They go for about $550 new. But you get a very well put together pistol that works every time.

[tarafore]

Something a bit bigger than the Kel Tec or the Kahr but not much heavier (about 20 Oz unloaded): the Walther PPS.

I find its just big enough to be pretty comfortable to shoot vs. the Kahr and Kel Tec. It doesn't punish your hand, and the trigger is great. Its also very accurate for a smaller pistol.

It can come with 6, 7, or 8 round magazines. The 6 fit flush, the 7 is a slight extension that I've found the most convenient for comfort vs. concealment, and the 8 is the longest and makes the grip about as long as a full size Glock.

It has a safety exactly like the Glock mounted on the trigger and its every bit as thin as the PF9 or PM9. The only major difference aside from the slight bump in length is the magazine release is what's called a Euro style and built into the trigger guard as a lever. Very easy to release the magazine with your trigger finger in this configuration.

Its slightly more expensive than the other two, but not by too much. They go for about $550 new. But you get a very well put together pistol that works every time.

$550 is doable (sell the G27 for $400-500, put in the rest in cash), and they certainly do look great (I Googled them). I have one question: I absolutely hate the finger grooves on the newer Glocks. Is there a Walther option without finger grooves?

[tarafore]

i have all the kt pistols and love them. mine are reliable and accurate for what they are. i carry a p3at of pf9 every single day.

That said, if you have a history of joint problems you may not want to shoot the pf9 too much as it's a snappy recoiler and will make your hand sore at the range in short order! I know older KT'ers that had to stop shooting their pf9's due to joint problems, when combined with the the pistols snappy recoil made their hands hurt too badly to function!

Hmm. Pain from recoil has never been a real problem for me. Pain from not having enough range time to get sore is what gets me

Seriously, though, I wonder if anyone makes a grip-wrap from a recoil-absorbent material. I've heard of recoil gloves before (a guy wore them when reviewing a S&W .500 Magnum with a short-ish barrel). That wouldn't add much to the gun's size and weight, but might help tame recoil. Hmm.