Trail Gun Revisited

Handgun, Pistol and Revolver topics

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Which of these two for large critter defense?

.44 magnum revolver with 6" barrel
14
40%
10mm Glock model 40 (M.O.S.) with 6" barrel
21
60%
 
Total votes: 35

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Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:44 am

Hiyas,

So, I learned of a Glock model 40: 10mm, 6" barrel, 15 round magazine capacity (+1 in the chamber), and it can mount an optic, such as a Delta Point or something similar on the top of it instead of just plastic or iron sights.

A .44 magnum revolver with a 6" barrel, generally, has a capacity of 6 rounds. The .44 magnum is more powerful than the 10mm, however if we're talking self-defense rather than hunting, I think the 10mm is worth discussing for personal defense from large critters.

Which would you pick?
-Neptune
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:47 am

Open carry or concealed?
Hunting, or just protection?
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Confucius » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:51 am

How large of critters are we talking? I've never felt particularly threatened when I've run into black bears, and that's about the biggest I'm likely to run into where I roam.

Have definitely felt threatened by mountain lions, and the odd dog or rattlesnake, but both options are a bit of overkill for any of those...

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:57 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Open carry or concealed?
Hunting, or just protection?
Either open carry or concealed while trail hiking, depending on local laws.

Just protection. If out hunting, assume somebody is using a shotgun or rifle, and has a sidearm in case they get caught not holding the long gun.
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:59 am

Confucius wrote:How large of critters are we talking? I've never felt particularly threatened when I've run into black bears, and that's about the biggest I'm likely to run into where I roam.

Have definitely felt threatened by mountain lions, and the odd dog or rattlesnake, but both options are a bit of overkill for any of those...
Something larger than a two-legged aggressor, essentially. A person's everyday carry pistol might suit them depending on the wildlife in their area while hiking... but for somebody wanting a more powerful option, that's what I'm trying to get at with this poll.
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:09 pm

Pedantic min-maxing? Don't mind if I do!

I don't know if I agree that .44 MAg is more powerful than 10mm, but that depends on a few things.

Size comparison between a G40 and model 629:
Caliber: .44 Magnum®, .44 S&W Special
- Capacity: 6 Rounds
- Barrel Length: 6” / 15.2 cm
- Overall Length: 11.63” / 29.5 cm
- Weight Empty: 45 oz / 1,275.8 g
LENGTH: 241mm / 9.49 in.
WIDTH: 32.5 mm / 1.28 in.
HEIGHT: 139 mm / 5.47 in.
BARREL LENGTH: 153 mm / 6.02 in.
Weights UNLOADED: 798 g / 28.15 oz.
LOADED: 1138 g / 40.14 oz.
Magazine Capacity: 15
Note that the Glock weighs less loaded with a full mag than the Smith does empty. The Glock is two inches shorter stem to stern, and the Glock's sights run almost the entire length, whereas the Smith does not. The Glock has twice the capacity, and slinging the same weight/velocity the felt recoil should be less.

Now let's look at the ballistics. Quick disclaimer for those who might not know, revolvers get extra barrel length of a sort from the cylinder, but loses a bunch of gas because of cylinder gap. This is important because while revolvers often outpace standard centerfire loads in closed-breech test guns or breechloaders, the cylinder gap eachs velocity, especially with heavier bullets that spend more time in the barrel.

10mm: Cor Bon Cor Bon Buffalo Bore Hornady
165 JHP 155 DPX 180 JHC 200 XTP
6" Test Bbl 1307FPS 1254FPS 1428FPS 1174FPS

.44 Mag: Cor Bon Cor Bon Federal Speer
165 JHP 225 DPX 240 HydraShok 200 Gold Dot
6" Test Bbl: 1321FPS 1320FPS 1380 FPS 1197 FPS
SW 629 6.5": 1360 1283 1296 1153
SW 629 5.6": 1257 1245 1256 1061

So, 10mm tends to sling lighter bullets, but about the same velocities as the magnum within range. I have seen molds for heavier 10mm loads, but y6ou don't have the case capacity. 10mm loaded rounds will just about disappear inside .44 Magnum brass
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OTOH, you get fifteen of them on tap in a slightly smaller package. Both can be made to wear a red dot, the MOS for Glock and a simple mount for the SW or a Ruger, but the revolvers typically command a higher price to get into the game. I cannot comment on the quality of Taurus large-frame revolvers personally. A lot of handloaders will swear you can up-load the 10mm, but that's true of the .44 as well assuming your revolver can handle the pressure. Same goes for saving money on ammo.

Another option would be to step to the .454 Casull. A lot more ass behind it, you can sling hot .45 LC or cowboy loads for plinking as they run about the same price as .44Spl/Magnum. The .454 brass can also be cut down or loaded flush to achieve .45 LC-ish loads that will last just about forever and a half, assuming you handload, which TBH is probbaly a good idea, at least a single stage, for pricey magnum boolits. The downside is that .454 starts at double or triple .44 Mag, but nobody makes plinking ammo in Casull. You could also get a .460 SW, which will shoot .454 and .45LC, but that's just ridiculous.

TL:DR 10mm is probably enough, but then so is .45 ACP or .44 SPL or .44 Mag. Figure out what you're most likely to shoot and carry. For what you're talkign about, I'd be looking at a Redhawk Alaskan, SW 69, or G29, not the moose-fucking souleaters you're looking at.
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by raptor » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:46 pm

I do not see a choice for a rifle like a .444 or a .45-70. If I am facing a critter like a grizzly bear (or a moose) I really would rather have a long gun. I would prefer even a 12 gauge shot gun with slugs to a handgun.

Now if we are talking black bears (in the lower 48, the ones in AK are apparently more aggressive) either handgun would work for me. In my area I use either a .357 magnum or a .45 acp but black bears here are shy and run at the sight of humans.

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Paladin1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:03 pm

Don't listen to any of these guys-your ol' pal Paladin1 has the straight answer for you......

Glock 40 MOS with a Delta point is the best trail gun in the universe.

I know that for a fact, because I just checked.....



:awesome:
WWSD?

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:32 pm

raptor wrote:I do not see a choice for a rifle like a .444 or a .45-70. If I am facing a critter like a grizzly bear (or a moose) I really would rather have a long gun. I would prefer even a 12 gauge shot gun with slugs to a handgun.

Now if we are talking black bears (in the lower 48, the ones in AK are apparently more aggressive) either handgun would work for me. In my area I use either a .357 magnum or a .45 acp but black bears here are shy and run at the sight of humans.
The idea behind this little poll is, even if you were carrying a rifle, what would you want as a side-arm in case the critter showed up when you weren't holding the rifle (pitching a tent, peeing on a tree, etc)... or, if the rifle malfunctioned, or it was dropped / otherwise inaccessable.

I'd rather have a rifle, too... but I would keep a side-arm just in case. My question is: which of those choices would you pick?

Thanks!
-Neptune
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by quazi » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:28 am

I live in a place with large, dangerous animals and I decided to go with 10mm as my general purpose cartridge. I have a Glock 29, and I recently sold my Glock 20 to fund the purchase of a Glock 40 when it becomes available. If I was looking for a handgun specifically for defense against grizzly bears I'd probably get a .44 magnum or .454 Casull, but I think 10mm is adequate for bear* and the greater capacity and lighter recoil make it better for defense against humans.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:So, 10mm tends to sling lighter bullets, but about the same velocities as the magnum within range. I have seen molds for heavier 10mm loads, but y6ou don't have the case capacity
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:A lot of handloaders will swear you can up-load the 10mm, but that's true of the .44 as well assuming your revolver can handle the pressure. Same goes for saving money on ammo.
Most of the people I know who carry .44 mag for bears go with pretty heavy bullets, usually about 300 grains. Of course, that's probably overkill for most places in the U.S. They're also a pain to practice with.

*Edit: Adequate in handgun terms, which is pretty poor compared to a good rifle or shotgun.
Last edited by quazi on Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Paladin1 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:51 am

While my earlier post was whimsical in tone, I do believe the 10MM is a great option for a trail/woods gun.

I just read this morning about an Ohio father and son camping in NC and a black bear biting the sons head while he slept and dragged him away.

The father, of course, jumped on the bear and was kicking and punching it. Managed to get the bear off of him and he survived, but they both could easily could have been killed.

I think that we can all agree that if confronted with a bear of any breed we would prefer something belt fed on a pintle mount.

But since the reality is quite low of a dangerous encounter, you want something that you can carry every time comfortably, yet be viable for defense.

The big wheel guns are certainly viable, but they are also huge and heavy. Not to mention low capacity, which may be fine for a lone bear, but a pack of wolves? Heavy brush to get through? Loss of fine motor skills making getting hits hard? warning shots to scare off?

As Doc pointed out (in great detail :D ) a Glock 40 MOS weighs less fully loaded than the empty wheel gun. We are always fighting with keeping weight down without compromising capability so I think the choice between the options given is clear.

While the 10mm is not as powerful as some of the hand cannons, loaded up with Buffalo Bore or other hard cast, bone crushing ammo, it can kill whatever needs to be killed if you can get good hits.

And it's going to be a far lighter, more compact-hence more comfortable carry for you.

Now if you have a really little pecker, then sure, carry the 454 Cascull around on your hip. :lol:
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Boondock » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:09 am

Ballistics aside, I think "BOOM" factor also is a good element to consider when choosing a trail sidearm for animal defense. Here's two videos of charging grizzlies that turned and ran from the noise and muzzle blast of a warning shot.

Don't know the weapon on this one:



Almost positive this is a .454 Casull:



Not trying to derail or debate. I'm enjoying this thread.

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:54 pm

While I am pretty bias (I have no love for revolvers on any grounds other then aesthetics) I think it pertinent to discuss the follow up shot. Not just in the typical semi-auto vs. revolver sense, but in trigger weight and bore axis.

I will never forget the first time I shot a single-action .44 mag. I was young and didn't know what to expect, the barrel flipped nearly 90* not just from recoil but also because I was wearing wool gloves with a wood gripped gun. Now that would never happen with my dads bear gun (a rubber gripped tarus ultralite .44 mag) but the high bore-axis does make the follow up shot much harder then I think it needs to be. For this reason a Rhino is almost the only revolver I would ever consider buying.
A minor footnote on bore axis too, if a red dot is being considered I would bet on it being far more intuitive to use on a glock then nearly three inches above your hand on top of a revolver.

On top of that the trigger pull on most double-action revolvers is much heavier and longer then on a stiker-fired handgun, I won't even comment on what I think of using a single-action...

while semi-autos are supposedly "less reliable" then revolvers (and being a lefty I have my share of thumb-induced stovepipes) I have been around a lot of glitchy revolvers and don't put much stock in that claim. People messing with springs to get a lighter trigger leading to light-strikes, total cylinder lock from switching between cartridges, sometimes not being able to activate the cylinder release, etc.

I'm not saying that a lot of people, with a lot of practice, can't shoot a revolver well, but I am saying that a modern semi-auto seems to offer nearly every advantage and choosing a revolver in this day and age seems to be more of a philosophical choice rather then a pragmatic one (caveats: balls-out ballistics, cost, form factor, and a few other excuses will be accepted as legitimate justifications).
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:31 pm

I'd say 10mm but get the standard Glock without all the bells and whistles. Faster, lighter, more rounds, potent enough for most any critter.

I love the .44 mag, but it if you aren't in big Grizzly country, it isn't necessary as a 7 or 8 shot .357 mag is easier to shoot.

Now, .44 mag in a lever gun, now you're talking!!!
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by quazi » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:36 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:I'd say 10mm but get the standard Glock without all the bells and whistles.
With the tapering they did a Glock 40 is lighter than a Glock 20 and less than 1.5 ounces heavier than a Glock 29 (unloaded weights). The OAL on a Glock 40 is almost exactly the same as a 4.2" GP100. I think that the G40 might make the G20 even more of a niche gun.

A Leupold DeltaPoint only weighs 0.6 ounces. A Trijicon RMR weighs about 1.2 ounces, which is still pretty light.

I can see a red dot not working out. I'm worried about rain during the summer and fog during the winter. I figure if I don't like the DeltaPoint I bought (on sale) I can put it on a .22 lr pistol for hunting and go back to iron sights.
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by MacAttack » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:16 pm

Just watch your local hunting laws.

Some areas do not allow handguns unless its handgun season. then they do not allow long guns.

CCW permits do not necessarily trump local hunting laws and in many cases CCW only counts while not hunting.

Also check your local handgun hunting weapons that are permissible. Some calibers are not allowed for some game.


In my opinion your best bet for a second gun out hunting is a second hunters and his weapon. It also gives you a better chance at defense in case your weapon malfunctions during that rare animal attack.

If your just out hiking then I would say carry the biggest caliber you feel comfortable carrying. And make sure of your local hunting and carry laws.

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:38 pm

quazi wrote:
JeeperCreeper wrote:I'd say 10mm but get the standard Glock without all the bells and whistles.
With the tapering they did a Glock 40 is lighter than a Glock 20 and less than 1.5 ounces heavier than a Glock 29 (unloaded weights). The OAL on a Glock 40 is almost exactly the same as a 4.2" GP100. I think that the G40 might mack the G20 even more of a niche gun.

A Leupold DeltaPoint only wieghs 0.6 ounces. A Trijicon RMR weighs about 1.2 ounces, which is still pretty light.

I can see a red dot not working out. I'm worried about rain during the summer and fog during the winter. I figure if I don't like the DeltaPoint I bought (on sale) I can put it on a .22 lr pistol for hunting and go back to iron sights.
Might look at an Aimpoint Micro then. Not as light and sleek, but absolutely weatherproof. Bridge mount a present holster issues, but slidemounts will clear open-topped holsters. You will lose your irons, but I've had reasonable success at close range using the tube like a giant ghost ring. The 50,000 hour battery helps with that, and the sealed body will be better at resisting damage and debris.
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:46 pm

The red dots seems cool for range/competition use, but will they be a negative banging in the bush or trying to draw from a decent holster?? I'd think so, but I also have no experience with them. When it comes to the outdoors, I'd keep it low tech.

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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:01 pm

A new challenger has appeared:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super

Higher power, uses the standard .45 ACP barrel as far as I can tell, just replace springs and guide rod. Ammo's not horribly expensive, and you get a serious velocity boost. Underwood sells 255gr HCL that pumps along at just under 1100FPS from a G21.

You'll forgive me, I like numbers. Numbers are qualitative, and I think tend to put things in perspective very well.
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
185 gr (12 g) JHP 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 694 ft·lbf (941 J)
200 gr (13 g) JHP 1,200 ft/s (370 m/s) 639 ft·lbf (866 J)
230 gr (15 g) FMJ 1,100 ft/s (340 m/s) 618 ft·lbf (838 J)
That's all from a 5" barrel. Granted, some folks don't like BB numbers, and that's okay.
Caliber: 45 Super
Bullet Weight: 255 Grains
Bullet Style: Hardcast Flat Nose 21 BHN
Muzzle Velocity: 1075 fps
Muzzle Energy: 654 ft. lbs.
Not .44 Magnum-fast, but also far cheaper to get started and in a smaller package. I've considered ordering the Wolf springs for the bargain 1911 I have sitting around ande ordering a box or two to see how it shoots.
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:21 am

I was actually thinking about mentioning .45 Super since I just picked up a "special edition" Springfield XD that supposedly needs no modifications to shoot .45 Super.

Shit, forget it and just go to .460 Rowland!!!
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Paladin1 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:49 am

Just found these:
http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto- ... box-of-20/

"Underwood Ammo combines our trademark power and precision with Lehigh Defense’s masterfully designed Xtreme Penetrator bullets—the result is one jaw dropping round. This round is solid copper and features a unique nose that maximizes penetration and facilitates consistent and reliable magazine feeding"

Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Muzzle Energy: 700 ft. lbs

Out of a 6" Glock 40 barrel it would be a little more than 1500fps and over 700ftlbs. :shock:

Lehigh Defense makes some nice boolits, I have some of their stuff for my 300BO.
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by Neptune Glory » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:36 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:The red dots seems cool for range/competition use, but will they be a negative banging in the bush or trying to draw from a decent holster?? I'd think so, but I also have no experience with them. When it comes to the outdoors, I'd keep it low tech.
That makes sense to me. If I go with this, will probably just mount my usual sights onto it. Even without the red dot, it's still a high power / high capacity semi-automatic... and that's pretty good!
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by quazi » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:06 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Might look at an Aimpoint Micro then. Not as light and sleek, but absolutely weatherproof. Bridge mount a present holster issues, but slidemounts will clear open-topped holsters. You will lose your irons, but I've had reasonable success at close range using the tube like a giant ghost ring. The 50,000 hour battery helps with that, and the sealed body will be better at resisting damage and debris.
That's a good suggestion. I might go that route if I like how well the DeltaPoint performs but am disappointed in its reliability and/or am fed up with having to remove it every time I want to change the battery.

The DeltaPoint was on sale at Cabelas, and I had a gift card, so it effectively cost me about $275. The other thing is that there is an adapter plate included right now for the Leupold DeltaPoint, but not for the Aimpoint. This is an experiment and I'm trying to keep it relatively low cost.
JeeperCreeper wrote:Shit, forget it and just go to .460 Rowland!!!
I'm waiting for Kriss to come out with their Vector in .460 Rowland. That might actually put their recoil reduction to good use. :lol:
I was looking at those the other day. The Chopping Block on Youtube does a lot of 10mm gel tests with a 4.5" EAA Witness. He got 25.9" of penetration with the that Underwood 140 grain Xtreme Penetrator ammo. LINK

I haven't seen many FMJ penetration tests, but in his testing the CorBon 180 soft points failed to expand and all managed to penetrate four layers of denim, 28" of gelatin exit the back of of the gelatin with the first ending up in a water jug and the next three bouncing off the water jug. LINK

I'm guessing for penetration against large animals a heavier, non-expanding bullet would perform just as well if not better than the LeHigh Xtreme Penetrator. If you're looking for velocity to penetrate soft armor or as a flatter-shooting round the LeHigh might be a good choice. It's not very high on my list, but if a 9x25mm conversion barrel becomes available for the Glock 40 I might pick one up. :crazy:

If you're just looking for velocity for the lulz, The Chopping Block tested a 60 grain load that got over 2,300 FPS from a 4.5" barrel. Maybe a good varmint round? LINK

I'm interested in seeing how well the heavier, 200+ grain hard cast flat nosed bullets perform. The Chopping Block did a test on 220 grain Underwood, but both shots veered off and exited the block. Maybe the weird cross-shaped front of the Lehigh bullet helps keep it going straight? LINK

Brass Fetcher has some gel tests of DoubleTap 200 grain flat-nosed hardcast loads. They don't list the barrel length that they were using for the test. They got 37.7" of penetration on bare gel, and 39.1" on gel with heavy clothing (that would make sense if they were testing expanding ammo, not sure why that was the case this time). LINK

After looking at a lot of 10mm penetration tests out of normal length barrels, it seems to me that in very general terms 180 grain JHP tends to expand a little bit more than 200 grain JHP, and penetrate a little less. Sometimes some 180 grain loads will expand a little bit too much and fail to penetrate 12" in ballistic gel. Sometimes some 200 grain loads will fail to expand at all.

The sub-180 grain loads will expand a lot, but often do not penetrate very deep. Interestingly some of the really light 135-140 grain loads penetrate more than 12", but if you look at the velocities they aren't going as fast as one would expect. I'm guessing they were intentionally downloaded so that they won't over-expand. Maybe that would make a good, low-recoil town load?

I haven't been able to find much in the way of ballistic gel tests on the heavy 210-230 grain loads.

Hopefully when the Glock 40 becomes available we'll see more penetration testing out of 6" barrels. I'm guessing that 200 grain JHP will be in the sweet spot, and get about as much expansion as a 180 grain JHP and as much penetration as a 200 grain JHP our of a normal length barrel.

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olbaid_dratsab
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Re: Trail Gun Revisited

Post by olbaid_dratsab » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:46 pm

Love trail gun concepts.

I vote Glock.

Woods usually means waist deep water at some point for whatever reason. Fishing, crossing, I fell in, whatever. And thats if I'm lucky and its only water and not mud or some crap. I feel like I could clean a Glock using a patch cut from my shirt and a stick.
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