My new HD tool

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Dabster
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:01 am

Murgatroy wrote:
TDW586 wrote:*Sigh*...and now you're discussing an entirely different topic. I'm not getting into shotgun versus rifle with you. Not gonna happen. I've saved you from doing the easiest of research on penetration, learning has occurred, I'm done here.

I don't understand why you dismiss expanding ammunition, other than because it makes it easier to convince yourself that what you have is best.
I agree, I think we are getting off the topic here and I am sorry. I am not trying to be confrontational.

You did give me the information I asked for, thank you.

While I respect that, it has not proven to me that 5.56 is somehow superior. It shows me that all variables even (if they can be) they both perform to the same standard. Unless I am missing something.

I am not dismissing expanding ammunition, I am just stating that by using expanding ammunition you are changing the rules of the game, just as you could use reduced recoil loads, or even a bean bag load. That is the only point I am trying to make with that.

I am sorry to have gone off at a tangent to the origin of the thread. Maybe it is because I have that old school mentality that you must use a shotgun for home defense, thank you for offering a differing point of view.

I have an AR, I have a shotgun, I have a pistol. This is not about trying to justify my SxS shotgun as the be all end all of HD because that is what I have. For the love of god, I just crippled myself out the gate because I only have two shots before I must take cover and reload.

All I was stating is that I did not believe the 5.56 was a better choice based on the fact of penetration. You showed me that my statement was incorrect. I now accept that all things equal, they both over penetrate, though the 5.56 offers one projectile versus nine.





The second part of my argument was not directed at the penetration, and I am sorry that it wasn't more obvious that I was breaking into a second debate there.

The point of that was again, maybe my misguided old school mentality, that nine pellets of buckshot is superior to one 5.56 round, again, all things equal.
Murg,

OP here. Maybe I can address some of your concerns. No one said ARs are better than shotguns. However by selling my shotgun and building a new AR, I certainly implied it.

Why did I imply that a plastic poodle-shootin' pop-gun was superior to a finely crafted, stone cold reliable & dead sexy Italian killing machine? Well, for me, it is. Here's why:

1. the above referenced articles on over penetration. Keep in mind, I was using tactical buckshot in a twelve guage.
2. Already owning an AR-15 and an AR-10, I am extremely familiar with the platform.
3. While I shoot my ARs regularly (At least three times a month, rain, snow or shine), my range forbids shotguns unless firing slugs. Hard to ptactice if you can't.

So there you go. Ain't she pretty?

Dabster
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:12 am

This is why I keep an 870 bedside, and an AR in the closet with a full mag of Hornady V-Max 5.56. Best of both worlds. OP - AR's lookin sexy.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Murgatroy » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:15 am

Dabster wrote: Murg,

OP here. Maybe I can address some of your concerns. No one said ARs are better than shotguns. However by selling my shotgun and building a new AR, I certainly implied it.

Why did I imply that a plastic poodle-shootin' pop-gun was superior to a finely crafted, stone cold reliable & dead sexy Italian killing machine? Well, for me, it is. Here's why:

1. the above referenced articles on over penetration. Keep in mind, I was using tactical buckshot in a twelve guage.
2. Already owning an AR-15 and an AR-10, I am extremely familiar with the platform.
3. While I shoot my ARs regularly (At least three times a month, rain, snow or shine), my range forbids shotguns unless firing slugs. Hard to ptactice if you can't.

So there you go. Ain't she pretty?

Dabster
I am sorry man, I didn't mean to derail your thread.

Your reasons are valid. Having a platform you are well versed in is a big plus. Not being able to practice with the shotgun is a major downer.

I am an AR fan, I don't mean to come off like I am not one.

I am glad you are happy with your new rifle, and I hope it serves your purpose well.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by TDW586 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:46 am

OP, my bad for participating in the derail of the thread.

Damn nice looking rifle.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Mr. Warren Peace » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:27 am

nice looking carbine.... 8-)
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by mwestjeeper » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:54 pm

Murgatroy wrote:
TDW586 wrote:Cool story bro. Continue to be convinced of that. Not my job to teach you better, especially if you don't want to learn.

The shotgun is sufficient for home defense. End. Of. Statement.
I have plainly stated that I have in fact been informed and learned.

You are welcome to take the perceived high road here and walk away from the discussion, but I don't see a need to be arrogant about it thinking that you are somehow better than me.

I asked, you showed, I conceded that I could indeed be mistaken. I then tried to take the discussion to a different area, wondering how different things could have affected the results of the test. Would the 5.56 have pierced through aluminum siding, would it have tumbled and gotten stopped in the insulation.

I am not disagreeing at this point, I am trying to explore rational conversation.

However, if you would prefer to think that we are arguing differing sides of the same coin, then so be it and we can agree to disagree.






To the OP, I am sorry to have derailed your thread.
Yeah, lets not lose sight of the fact that he was just here to show us a new gun that he got. And it devolved into the teaching of ballistics and google-fu.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:36 pm

Dabster wrote:With a new-to-me Eotech 512...
Image

Looking forward to sighting her in this weekend.

Sorry. Just had to share with people who might appreciate it.

Dab
Damn nice rifle, my friend! Can it mount a bayonet?
Murgatroy wrote:Ignore the LEGOs, the chandelier, the dining room table. Focus on the training.

Sure, you didn't train around corners, in the dark, with your heart in your throat.

But you did train with that weapon? Right? You did learn how to fire it, load it, fire it again?
Spoken like someone who has never set bare foot on legos/Matchbox cars/Barbie in the black of night while both hands where on a long gun...

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Dabster
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:02 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:
Dabster wrote:With a new-to-me Eotech 512...
Image

Looking forward to sighting her in this weekend.

Sorry. Just had to share with people who might appreciate it.

Dab
Damn nice rifle, my friend! Can it mount a bayonet?
Thanks. Unfortunately I don't think it will mount a bayonet.

Dab
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Niblick » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:53 am

Kutter_0311 wrote:
A platoon of Marine Grunts will train CQB endlessly, even in the barracks after work.

Know how to fuck up their room entry? Folding chairs and zip ties...
:lol: so true (with anyone, not just Marines).

Nice rifle OP. How do you like the MOE stuff?
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:45 am

I finally got it out this morning. I am as giddy as a school girl. The great stuff:
-- not a single malfunction.
--amazingly easy follow-up shots.
--Wow. Eotechs are as good as they say!
--I loved the Magpul grip, forearm and trigger guard. Nothing spectacular but completely comfortable and intuitive.
--A complete joy to shoot. Feels completely solid yet light and fast.
The so-so stuff:
-- The brake is a bit disturbing. Not terrible but a bit louder than expected and it sort of feels like my hair is getting blown back. As the follow-up shots are faster than my old carbine -this is a fair trade-off.
--The midlength gas system diesn't feel any different. I know: Boo-hoo-hoo...
The bad:
--The litttle holes, I can't see thems!! Must bring a spotting scope. Even at 200 yards I don't really need a spotting scope with my .308.
--So fun, I'mma need more ammo.

Thx,

Dabster
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:22 pm

Dabster wrote:Unfortunately I don't think it will mount a bayonet.

Dab
:shock:

Why not? It has the lug, seems like you've got enough barrel, the muzzle brake doesn't look exceptionally large... :?
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:48 am

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Dabster wrote:Unfortunately I don't think it will mount a bayonet.

Dab
:shock:

Why not? It has the lug, seems like you've got enough barrel, the muzzle brake doesn't look exceptionally large... :?
Excellent points. I will try one as soon as I can get my hands on one.
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:07 am

I still haven't had a chance to try mounting a bayonet on my new AR-15 but I have taken it shooting four times and just tonight finally got a Flat Dark Earth (Remember: Gotta be pretty). Magpul RST stock.

I got it from AzArmament. They were a nudge more expensive but they claimed they'd ship earlier than most (which they did) and they were very nice on the phone.

Mounting the stock was pretty easy. I had to deform the includded plastic cartridge to get it on but I guess that bit did its job.

Pro's
--Cheekweld is amazing, to justify the expense I had my wife shoulder the rifle before and after installation. She said she understood why I wanted it.
--Looks awesome. Being FDE my odds of hitting go up 19%!
--Sling mounting options seem very promising.

Con's
--The battery compartments look and feel fragile and insecure. Not sure if I will put anything in there.
--It's heavy, maybe two pounds but at least double whay my basic collapsible stock weighed. However as some people add weights to the stock of their rifles, this may be s worthwhile trade of weight for improved balance.

Just had to share!

Dab
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Tue May 15, 2012 12:43 am

This evening my litttle creation took another step towards becoming A COMPLETELY OPERATIONAL BATTLE STATION!!

Yes. I installed an IWC recessed forward sling mount, an IWC light mount and a 200 lumen Surefire G2x Tactical light and a Magpul MVG.

Also pictured is my Magpul RST stock that I got last month.

Still to go is a VTac sling.

Image

Image

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Thanks,

Dab
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by lokifz1 » Tue May 15, 2012 2:37 am

I don't buy the whole buckshot is more likely to have a pellet miss. So use an AR. Besides if your firing your AR at a intruder I bet you fire more then one round.

Iam not worried about neghbors I have nice exterior walls and bricks and such that are missing from these tests.

Having cleared homes barns businesses warehouses etc I have used both.

My bump in the night gun is usually my shotgun.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by squinty » Tue May 15, 2012 3:00 am

One round may penetrate less or more than another, and I guess it's worth taking into consideration, but it's folly to think there's any capable self defense round that somehow negates rule 4. Whatever you shoot, a miss can have catastrophic consequences. Never think that because you are shooting X type of projectile, or X type of weapon, that you don't have to worry about where a missed round goes, or who's on the other side of the wall.

OT: Nice rifle! :)
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Czechnology » Tue May 15, 2012 10:02 am

squinty wrote:One round may penetrate less or more than another, and I guess it's worth taking into consideration, but it's folly to think there's any capable self defense round that somehow negates rule 4. Whatever you shoot, a miss can have catastrophic consequences. Never think that because you are shooting X type of projectile, or X type of weapon, that you don't have to worry about where a missed round goes, or who's on the other side of the wall.

OT: Nice rifle! :)
The idea isn't to negate rule 4, the idea is to be realistic and take into account that when there is someone inside your house with malice aforethought, you are going to have much more trouble obeying rule 4. Anything that can mitigate the potential destructive power of what police statistics have shown is going to be at least one likely miss in a defensive shooting is a good thing.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by squinty » Tue May 15, 2012 5:13 pm

Czechnology wrote:
squinty wrote:One round may penetrate less or more than another, and I guess it's worth taking into consideration, but it's folly to think there's any capable self defense round that somehow negates rule 4. Whatever you shoot, a miss can have catastrophic consequences. Never think that because you are shooting X type of projectile, or X type of weapon, that you don't have to worry about where a missed round goes, or who's on the other side of the wall.

OT: Nice rifle! :)
The idea isn't to negate rule 4, the idea is to be realistic and take into account that when there is someone inside your house with malice aforethought, you are going to have much more trouble obeying rule 4. Anything that can mitigate the potential destructive power of what police statistics have shown is going to be at least one likely miss in a defensive shooting is a good thing.
I don't believe any effective SD round is likely to mitigate the effects of a miss to a sufficient extent that it should determine your selection of HD round. It's a factor to take into consideration, but should not be your primary criteria for picking a HD weapon.

As for the OP, that's a nice setup and I look forward to hearing more about it. Sorry to have inflicted my "last-word-o-phelia" on this thread, and prolongimng the derail.
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My new HD tool

Post by Dabster » Tue May 15, 2012 8:36 pm

squinty wrote:
Czechnology wrote:
squinty wrote:One round may penetrate less or more than another, and I guess it's worth taking into consideration, but it's folly to think there's any capable self defense round that somehow negates rule 4. Whatever you shoot, a miss can have catastrophic consequences. Never think that because you are shooting X type of projectile, or X type of weapon, that you don't have to worry about where a missed round goes, or who's on the other side of the wall.

OT: Nice rifle! :)
The idea isn't to negate rule 4, the idea is to be realistic and take into account that when there is someone inside your house with malice aforethought, you are going to have much more trouble obeying rule 4. Anything that can mitigate the potential destructive power of what police statistics have shown is going to be at least one likely miss in a defensive shooting is a good thing.
As for the OP, that's a nice setup and I look forward to hearing more about it. Sorry to have inflicted my "last-word-o-phelia" on this thread, and prolongimng the derail.
No worries, Brother. It's been a very interesting discussion that I have thoroughly enjoyed.

WRT to over-penetration. I don't intend to use it like a Sooper-Soaker, I just hope it will do a better job of not traveling too far, than my shotgun and (the primary reason I got it) it will be much easier to practice with.

By the way, it is an amazingly sweet shooter.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by Caenus » Tue May 15, 2012 9:43 pm

I wish my sig wasn't already so long, I'd totally use this:

Remember, a gunfight isn't a square range, and you'll be firing quickly, from around a corner, with a dining room table in your way, standing on the pile of Legos you know damned well you told your kid to put away last night, and with that ugly-ass chandelier your wife insists is classy blocking your shot, so don't say, "train more and you won't miss," because that isn't realistic.
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Re: My new HD tool

Post by MacAttack » Wed May 16, 2012 1:45 am

Nice carbine. Good choice and layout.



Why does everyone assume that in a HD situation a miss will always hit drywall? Look around your house. If someone is coming in your house they are more than likely in front of a window or door. And if its one of those cardboard interior doors its like shooting a midweek newspaper.

Inspect your homes layout. First from the intruders viewpoint(you might not be the only one with a gun) then from the defenders viewpoint. You best home defense strategy starts outside the home. The last place you want a bad guy is inside. Make it harder for him to get in first.

And I really can't express it enough, get a dog. Any size dog that has the balls to actually confront an intruder. It might suck to have the dog shot or hurt by the intruder but it gives you all the advantages now. All of them. The dog would more than likely hear them first and more than likely raise the first alarm. This gives you time. If the dog actually makes the first attack then you get even more time, time for a better shot.
Plus the dog can tell if its a real intruder or just your kid walking around in their sleep.
Get a dog.

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