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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:43 am 
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The bits of white from the x-ray are jacket fragments. Shot was evidently taken from across the street. The round didn't even hit the bone.
From:
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

More information in the thread. Lots of incorrect information about ballistics innermixed with correct info too. *sigh*

Page 4 sports some other photos of M193 damage on a different victim

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Last edited by Dave_M on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:51 am 
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"Shot from across the street, bullet did not even hit the bone, it was shattered by the shock wave." - from link

I'm guessing that's what you meant by "The round didn't even hit the leg."

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:12 am 
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Darxus wrote:
"Shot from across the street, bullet did not even hit the bone, it was shattered by the shock wave." - from link

I'm guessing that's what you meant by "The round didn't even hit the leg."


fixed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:17 am 
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with all the talk that M193 sucks and specialty round X is better

i will reiterate my take on terminal ballistics.
Getting shot sucks.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:22 am 
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Hoppy wrote:
with all the talk that M193 sucks and specialty round X is better

i will reiterate my take on terminal ballistics.
Getting shot sucks.

+1

I cannot think of any way to further this argument other than that it doesnt matter the caliber, i don't want to be on the pointy end of the bullet.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:58 am 
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I've seen these pics before, and that is why I laugh when someone says 5.56 isn't an effective round. I NEVER want to get shot by one. Then again, I don't want to get shot by anything...but with wounds like that, I especially want to avoid getting tagged by 5.56 :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:02 am 
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Chase The hero wrote:
Hoppy wrote:
with all the talk that M193 sucks and specialty round X is better

i will reiterate my take on terminal ballistics.
Getting shot sucks.

Indubitably, my good sir and/or madam.

I cannot think of any way to further this argument other than that it doesnt matter the caliber, i don't want to be on the pointy end of the bullet.

Everyone knows Hoppy is a beautiful lady..


Those pictures are crazy, I think I'm with everyone else that I'm good with not getting shot..

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:22 am 
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This reminds me of a few things(beyond the "getting shot SUCKS" bit):

1) Cover is your friend.

2) Concealment is not cover. Cover stops whatever the enemy is firing at you, be it 9mm, belt-fed .308, or RPG's.

3) Your cover may suddenly become mere concealment once the enemy has had enough of your shit. Be ready to move.

4) Body armor is also not cover. It sucks only slightly less to get shot in armor than without it, and you'll likely experience both. At the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gunshot Wound AR-15
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:27 pm 
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A few months ago a home-owner in our district shot two burglars that had had been breaking in and stealing his stuff from a rental house he owns (since it wasn't rented yet the home-owner had been using the house to store his tools/construction materials).

Eventually after several break-in's he got sick of having his stuff stolen and so he moved into the house to try and protect his belongings and he brought along his AR (I don't know what brand it was, but one of the cops said it was an A2 with a carry handle and that it's barrel was longer than 16 inches).

Around 9-10AM two dope-fiends with long records for burglary and drugs hopped the back fence and were trying to gain entry when the home-owner heard someone in his backyard. He grabbed his AR and went out back to investigate. As soon as he saw them trying to break into his garage he opened fire on them. He ended up firing a few rounds at them in the backyard and the two burglars (who were uninjured at this point..he missed) hopped back over the fence and ran to their car (out in front) and tried to take off. After firing some rounds at them in the backyard (the cops I talked to didn't know the actual round count of how many shots were fired in the backyard..6 or 7 was the guess) the home-owner ran back through his house and out front and then dumped the rest of the mag at the burglars as they were driving away.

That's a big 'No-No'...even in Texas. Especially since there was a park and a childrens jungle gym in the background on the other side of the street (that's probably the real reason the cops were so pissed off at the home-owner...for dumping SO many rounds and not paying attention to his background...which could have resulted in dead or wounded children).

At any rate both burglars were hit while they were driving away, one in the forearm and the other recieved a wound to the leg which just grazed him. Their car was completely disabled and it quit running and according to P.D., the Firefighters on Engine 2 and the C-Shift EMS crew it supposedly looked like the 'Bonnie and Clyde Death Car'.

After dumping the rest of the mag at the fleeing burglars (20+ rounds at least) the home-owner went back in the grab yet another 30rd mag. :roll:

When the home-owner finally quit firing and ran back into the house to grab another mag both burglars took this opportunity to run for their lives and they both got out of the car and took off. The burglar with the grazing wound to the leg ran several blocks back to his house where he called for an ambulance (no pic of that wound...I don't know the fill-in crew or know if they took a pic). The other burglar who was shot in the forearm only managed to make it a few doors down from where their car was disabled because of the pain, he banged on the door and begged the lady to call 911.

After P.D. secured the scene this is what the GSW looked like. The C-Shift Medic took a quick pic on his cellphone while the staff at (*Edited to take out the name of the hospital) the ER were doing their assessment.

Image

The forearm was so mangled that the limb wasn't able to be saved and his arm was amputated a few hrs later. From what the crew said it was basically turned inside out.

I honestly don't know if he was shot with a M193 round or not. I also don't know the grain weight of the bullet or know who manufactured it, but according to P.D. he was shot with with a FMJ round of some type (the Officers in our district aren't gun-nuts...so they didn't know). However since 55 grains is what most FMJ comes in chances are good that it was a 55 grain bullet.

Because the home-owner was off his property, because they weren't visibly armed, because he continued to fire while the burglars were fleeing down the street in a car and because there was a playground and children at the park and on the jungle gym right across the street who were put in harms way the home-owner was charged with Aggravated Assault and Reckless Endangerment.

During one of our C.E.'s I asked the Police Chief about it and he said that he doesn't think that the Grand Jury will indict the home-owner for Aggravated Assault. However he did say that they'll probably indict him for Reckless Endangerment because he dumped SO many rounds and because there were kids right acorss the street in the background.

Like Hoppy said though...'Getting shot sucks'. This guy got shot in the arm and he ended up losing it. I guess it's better than being dead though.

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Last edited by Browning 35 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Man, those poodles are totally shaped like a human leg and a human arm. That is just bizarre.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:06 pm 
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This is bullshit. Everyone knows that tumbling and fragmenting of 5.56 will blow limbs clean off.

Seriously though thanks for the pictures and context.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Yep, those puny .22 bullets are for mice all right.

(watches proceeding AK vs AR flame war)

I have some autopsy photos back at the house taken in the late 60's early 70's.
M193 ball hit the extremities on 2 dif subjects and removed the flesh in a baseball sized hole.
Like it was cookie cuttered out and blown down range.
The bone and tendon remained intact.
Brachial artery blew out and the 1st subject dropped instantly (more or less, subjective nature of personal accounts aside).
The other was the femoral, same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gunshot Wound AR-15
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Browning 35 wrote:
Their car was completely disabled and it quit running and according to P.D., the Firefighters on Engine 2 and the C-Shift EMS crew it supposedly looked like the 'Bonnie and Clyde Death Car'... This guy got shot in the arm and he ended up losing it. I guess it's better than being dead though.

5) Unarmored vehicles are not cover. While some LEO's have had trouble getting some 5.56 rounds to reach a target through auto glass, I am convinced that this a function of impact angle and high-expansion projectiles. The FMJ fired by most of the gun-toting world goes through everything but the engine block pretty well. Drive your car behind cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Gunshot Wound AR-15
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Kutter_0311 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
Their car was completely disabled and it quit running and according to P.D., the Firefighters on Engine 2 and the C-Shift EMS crew it supposedly looked like the 'Bonnie and Clyde Death Car'... This guy got shot in the arm and he ended up losing it. I guess it's better than being dead though.

5) Unarmored vehicles are not cover. While some LEO's have had trouble getting some 5.56 rounds to reach a target through auto glass, I am convinced that this a function of impact angle and high-expansion projectiles. The FMJ fired by most of the gun-toting world goes through everything but the engine block pretty well. Drive your car behind cover.



glass has some funny effects on bullets. kinda off topic from the GSW wounds, but on topic with 5.56 ballistics and autos. im sure most of you all have seen this, but just incase http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Anyone still think an AR-15 is still inadequate for deer?


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Biggin wrote:
Anyone still think an AR-15 is still inadequate for deer?

Yes. Duh.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Biggin wrote:
Anyone still think an AR-15 is still inadequate for deer?

Only because I want to be able to eat some of the deer after I shoot it...

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Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
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I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Kutter_0311 wrote:
Biggin wrote:
Anyone still think an AR-15 is still inadequate for deer?

Only because I want to be able to eat some of the deer after I shoot it...


Still illegal in allot of places though.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Well, someone has to be the turd in the punch bowl. Two observations....

1) Small volumes of liquid are harder on bullets than larger volumes of liquid. Go shoot a 12 ounces bottle of water and compare that reaction to a 5 gallon jug of water. The bullet will look different too. Notice how both of these shots are in the arms or legs?

2) From the two stories, it looks like these were full length barrels (20 inches), which means more velocity, which means more effectiveness. The 5.56 is a great round, as depicted in the photos, for ranges where the velocity is above the minimum fragmentation threshold.

Now I can not see a valid reason that anyone would call the 5.56 underpowered. This is a quality round with mil spec ammo. Even better with some of the new bullets on the market today. I made the important part in a larger font in hopes that people read it.

What we are left with in these two stories is the bullet impacting the target within the fragmentation velocity, and in both cases striking a limb, which provides for the most graphic results. These two good data points are good reasons for someone to point to the 5.56 and say that the round is clearly at least an appropriate power level. But these two data points are not conclusive proof.

Bonus point: Most of us do not see live tissue after bullet impact, so it may seem shocking. Why I say this is that most of us have no other point of reference, so this may seem "OMFG!!!" When in reality it can be "meh".


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Kutter_0311 wrote:
This reminds me of a few things(beyond the "getting shot SUCKS" bit):

1) Cover is your friend.

2) Concealment is not cover. Cover stops whatever the enemy is firing at you, be it 9mm, belt-fed .308, or RPG's.

3) Your cover may suddenly become mere concealment once the enemy has had enough of your shit. Be ready to move.

4) Body armor is also not cover. It sucks only slightly less to get shot in armor than without it, and you'll likely experience both. At the same time.



Posts like this make me wish ZS had a like button.

Side note: With visual evidence like this out there and available why does the 5.56 round and AR platform still have such a negative connotation?

I was on the range just a few weeks ago and had to correct several of my peers on their belief that the cartridge was nothing more than a glorified .22 varmint round. Is it all just passings on from the oldsters of the Nam' era or what?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:02 pm 
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It tallies with other incidents of very close range shootings with the 5.56, they are known to tumble.


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Liff wrote:
Well, someone has to be the turd in the punch bowl. Two observations....

1) Small volumes of liquid are harder on bullets than larger volumes of liquid. Go shoot a 12 ounces bottle of water and compare that reaction to a 5 gallon jug of water. The bullet will look different too. Notice how both of these shots are in the arms or legs?

2) From the two stories, it looks like these were full length barrels (20 inches), which means more velocity, which means more effectiveness. The 5.56 is a great round, as depicted in the photos, for ranges where the velocity is above the minimum fragmentation threshold.

Now I can not see a valid reason that anyone would call the 5.56 underpowered. This is a quality round with mil spec ammo. Even better with some of the new bullets on the market today. I made the important part in a larger font in hopes that people read it.

What we are left with in these two stories is the bullet impacting the target within the fragmentation velocity, and in both cases striking a limb, which provides for the most graphic results. These two good data points are good reasons for someone to point to the 5.56 and say that the round is clearly at least an appropriate power level. But these two data points are not conclusive proof.

Bonus point: Most of us do not see live tissue after bullet impact, so it may seem shocking. Why I say this is that most of us have no other point of reference, so this may seem "OMFG!!!" When in reality it can be "meh".



Liff not that I'm disagreeing with your other points but your more of a hardass than myself if you consider any of those visuals as just "meh" wounds.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Awesome. Really, it kind of blows my mind. Conventional wisdom is that all the hyper-ballistic-hydraulic hullabaloo was indeed hullabaloo, but I'm starting to get the feeling that there may be some truth to the hydrostatic shock.

Anyone got pics of a longer-range impact though? I've never been closer than 400m from a target, and most of the "range reports" I've read were much less impressive, albeit from a longer distance. Still, remember the rules of gunfighting:

1. The target is not when when you think he is, the target is down when HE is thoroughly convinced of that fact.
2. Small bullets do strange things, big bullets do big things, but neither is a "Guaranteed One-Shot Kill"
3. Every shot counts. Center of mass counts double.

And my favorite: 4. The gun you have trained with is ten times more effective than the gun you lust over.

I had an old (by grunt standards) grizzled scout sniper tell me those rules after I complained about the 5.56's performance, which is why I've stopped arguing over cartridge. I think those pics are a very convincing argument for the use of 5.56 for close (200m or less) work, though I'll still take my aught-six out for deer.

Wouldn't want to take the fun out by field dressing him with one shot!

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MicSteve wrote:
Liff not that I'm disagreeing with your other points but your more of a hardass than myself if you consider any of those visuals as just "meh" wounds.

I would like to point out that I am old and fat, and no where close to being Hard anymore. I sleep in a bed almost every night. I am soft. I think that is some jacked up stuff. But that is my point. I have no way of comparing those pictures to past experience. I don't see a whole lot of human gunshot woulds. I think this applies to most of us. And the gunshot wounds we do see are on thicker skinned animals using bullets that are designed to penetrate and not fragment.

This topic is beyond the scope of my direct experience. As it is with almost all of us.


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