the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by gunsandrockets » Fri May 12, 2017 1:39 pm

Well, I would never go with anything as small as #8 birdshot for a home defense shotgun. However, BB shot within 5 yards range is probably more lethal than many people give it credit for. I've seen a gel test where at 5 yards range BB shot average pellet penetration was more than 12 inches.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 12, 2017 7:00 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.

1) He is falling into the "28 gauge is less powerful than 12 gauge" myth. See ~9:30. Physics says E=MV(sq), whether that is from a .410, a 28 ga, or a 12 ga. Again, as long as the mass and velocity are the same, the energy is the same. The only difference is how many pellets are in the air. If velocity or mass were different he could claim differences in power. He has some similar issues in a number of his vids. He is not perfect, but he does a pretty good job. I like him.

2) His target analogs are nice, but not nice enough for my taste. None of those were 12 inches thick, and they lack a skin layer. The gelatin is not a direct flesh analogue. Per Fackler, it is simply a test medium that allows us to make predictions about the effect of a bullet in actual flesh based on what the bullet does in the test medium. It is not a "apples to apples" test. It is a "apples to oranges but we can then translate to apples from the effect on oranges" type of test. I forget which of his papers he wrote that in, but he did write it and last I checked they are publicly available for double checking.

3) I stand by my original statement. Look at what is allowed or recommended for hunting. Is #4 birdshot recommended (or allowed) for hog or deer hunting? I have not seen it recommended, so I would not use it for HD. Yes, limiting ranges to 5 yards is different from hunting, but I still have concerns.
Those are fair criticisms. Although he is not comparing a 28 to a 12, he is really comparing a 2 3/4 standard load to a 3 1/2 magnum. There can be a quite a difference between those loadings in velocity.

Not really looking for hog hunting and deer hunting there. I think the point is more along the lines of:

- In the particular situation where HD ranges are 21 feet will #4 shot work and not kill the neighbors?

- Will it lower the odds of fratricide inside your home?

The answer to those questions are most likely yes.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Hokicake » Fri May 12, 2017 7:07 pm

I just don't understand shotguns, why? what is there purpose? for people that can't aim or don't want to? Why on earth would you ever want to use a shotgun to shoot someone? I would have some second thoughts of even shooting a robber in my home cause I don't want any blood or mess unless he was shooting at me then I'd have to but if not I think I would just go grab the person and cuff him and call the police. oh and i have done stuff like that once. actually flipped him down my stairs and he tumbled down and I cuffed him.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 12, 2017 7:18 pm

Hokicake wrote:I just don't understand shotguns, why? what is there purpose? for people that can't aim or don't want to? Why on earth would you ever want to use a shotgun to shoot someone? I would have some second thoughts of even shooting a robber in my home cause I don't want any blood or mess unless he was shooting at me then I'd have to but if not I think I would just go grab the person and cuff him and call the police. oh and i have done stuff like that once. actually flipped him down my stairs and he tumbled down and I cuffed him.
Sounds like you are all set for home defense. Remember the most important part is mindset and you are already there.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by flybynight » Fri May 12, 2017 7:20 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.



3) I stand by my original statement. Look at what is allowed or recommended for hunting. Is #4 birdshot recommended (or allowed) for hog or deer hunting? I have not seen it recommended, so I would not use it for HD. Yes, limiting ranges to 5 yards is different from hunting, but I still have concerns.
Following this criteria, 5.56 should not be used for h d . Just saying ,a lot of places it's not allowed.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 12, 2017 7:25 pm

flybynight wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.



3) I stand by my original statement. Look at what is allowed or recommended for hunting. Is #4 birdshot recommended (or allowed) for hog or deer hunting? I have not seen it recommended, so I would not use it for HD. Yes, limiting ranges to 5 yards is different from hunting, but I still have concerns.
Following this criteria, 5.56 should not be used for h d . Just saying ,a lot of places it's not allowed.
Exactly. 5.56 may not be the best choice for home defense. It really depends upon your particulars.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by flybynight » Fri May 12, 2017 7:28 pm

Hokicake wrote:I just don't understand shotguns, why? what is there purpose? for people that can't aim or don't want to? Why on earth would you ever want to use a shotgun to shoot someone? I would have some second thoughts of even shooting a robber in my home cause I don't want any blood or mess unless he was shooting at me then I'd have to but if not I think I would just go grab the person and cuff him and call the police. oh and i have done stuff like that once. actually flipped him down my stairs and he tumbled down and I cuffed him.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by flybynight » Fri May 12, 2017 7:33 pm

Stercutus wrote:
flybynight wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.



3) I stand by my original statement. Look at what is allowed or recommended for hunting. Is #4 birdshot recommended (or allowed) for hog or deer hunting? I have not seen it recommended, so I would not use it for HD. Yes, limiting ranges to 5 yards is different from hunting, but I still have concerns.
Following this criteria, 5.56 should not be used for h d . Just saying ,a lot of places it's not allowed.
Exactly. 5.56 may not be the best choice for home defense. It really depends upon your particulars.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by jor-el » Sat May 13, 2017 6:02 pm

Hokicake wrote:I just don't understand shotguns, why? what is there purpose? for people that can't aim or don't want to? Why on earth would you ever want to use a shotgun to shoot someone? I would have some second thoughts of even shooting a robber in my home cause I don't want any blood or mess unless he was shooting at me then I'd have to but if not I think I would just go grab the person and cuff him and call the police. oh and i have done stuff like that once. actually flipped him down my stairs and he tumbled down and I cuffed him.

Read the OP from Dave_M down to the current page.

My take? Lots of PDs use them and have a liability rationale for their use. Been in use well over a century.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by w3rdtoyamama » Sun May 14, 2017 1:07 am

Hokicake wrote:I just don't understand shotguns, why? what is there purpose? for people that can't aim or don't want to? Why on earth would you ever want to use a shotgun to shoot someone? I would have some second thoughts of even shooting a robber in my home cause I don't want any blood or mess unless he was shooting at me then I'd have to but if not I think I would just go grab the person and cuff him and call the police. oh and i have done stuff like that once. actually flipped him down my stairs and he tumbled down and I cuffed him.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by 0122358 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:24 pm

So I've been rebuilding my maverick 88 to increase its effectiveness (sling, buttsaddle with magnum slugs, esstac side saddle with magnum 00 Buck, fiber optic front bead, working on a light solution) and when I went to pick up extra ammo, I mistakenly bought (single aught) 0 buck instead of 00 or 000 ( it was on sale so i cleaned them out of the 4 boxes). Would that still be effective at 20-25 yards? I've got the tube loaded with 00 buck, the low recoil flight control stuff and the Single Aught Buck is on my bandoleer I keep next to my ready rack and war belt.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 pm

0122358 wrote:So I've been rebuilding my maverick 88 to increase its effectiveness (sling, buttsaddle with magnum slugs, esstac side saddle with magnum 00 Buck, fiber optic front bead, working on a light solution) and when I went to pick up extra ammo, I mistakenly bought (single aught) 0 buck instead of 00 or 000 ( it was on sale so i cleaned them out of the 4 boxes). Would that still be effective at 20-25 yards? I've got the tube loaded with 00 buck, the low recoil flight control stuff and the Single Aught Buck is on my bandoleer I keep next to my ready rack and war belt.
0 Buck will work just fine at 30 yards.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am

Stercutus wrote:
0122358 wrote:So I've been rebuilding my maverick 88 to increase its effectiveness (sling, buttsaddle with magnum slugs, esstac side saddle with magnum 00 Buck, fiber optic front bead, working on a light solution) and when I went to pick up extra ammo, I mistakenly bought (single aught) 0 buck instead of 00 or 000 ( it was on sale so i cleaned them out of the 4 boxes). Would that still be effective at 20-25 yards? I've got the tube loaded with 00 buck, the low recoil flight control stuff and the Single Aught Buck is on my bandoleer I keep next to my ready rack and war belt.
0 Buck will work just fine at 30 yards.
What he said.

Pattern it with your shotgun, but it shouldn't be too very different from the 00 you have already.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by JF89 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:10 pm

I think Jeff Cooper had the right idea when it came to shotguns :mrgreen:

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by woodsghost » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:48 pm

JF89 wrote:I think Jeff Cooper had the right idea when it came to shotguns :mrgreen:
Interesting. All I know is a little bit I read on the internet. What did Jeff Cooper say?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:28 pm

woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:I think Jeff Cooper had the right idea when it came to shotguns :mrgreen:
Interesting. All I know is a little bit I read on the internet. What did Jeff Cooper say?
Use a rifle.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:45 pm

doc66 wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:I think Jeff Cooper had the right idea when it came to shotguns :mrgreen:
Interesting. All I know is a little bit I read on the internet. What did Jeff Cooper say?
Use a rifle.
I also thought he was an advocate for birdshot in HD
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by woodsghost » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:02 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:
doc66 wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:I think Jeff Cooper had the right idea when it came to shotguns :mrgreen:
Interesting. All I know is a little bit I read on the internet. What did Jeff Cooper say?
Use a rifle.
I also thought he was an advocate for birdshot in HD
This is consistent with what I've read on the internet.

I'm just parroting what I've read, but I understand that Louis Awerbuck, a disciple of Cooper, was probably more worth listening to when discussing shotguns.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:03 pm

woodsghost wrote:Louis Awerbuck, a disciple of Cooper
Kinda like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn?? From the self-proclaimed Jedi order of the gun realm... :awesome:
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by woodsghost » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:14 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
woodsghost wrote:Louis Awerbuck, a disciple of Cooper
Kinda like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn?? From the self-proclaimed Jedi order of the gun realm... :awesome:
Haha from what I understand, yes. Much like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:21 pm

Cooper once flippantly said he used a shotgun "loaded with silver dimes."

I don't know about the bird shot. I'd never recommend birdshot to anyone for anything other than birds.
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