the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:45 pm

Bearcat wrote:
doc66 wrote:
Makembite wrote:Proprietary magazine as far as I know. I wish it took grizzly mags, or Valtro mags. Oh well. I just got it, and I'm surprised how light it is! Just have to get the packing grease off it, and I'll take it out for a blast. I really like how it feels.
Bummer. Why do companies do that? Are they stupid expensive or reasonable?

When you get a chance, give us a run down of what you think...
Perhaps they have come up with a better design? Although most, like H&K, just like to make more profit. In the case of shotgun mags, is there really a mag design considered to be as common as the STANAG AR mag is to 5.56 rifles?
I donno. Maybe the Sagia 12? I guess it would depend more on the question, has anyone really made a magazine fed shotgun that's been successful...?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Grit » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:41 am

on that buck and ball load if the "ball" or in this case the "slug" pushes the buck out into bigger spreads why not load the buck behind the slug? I am asking as I do not know why this wouldn't work.

As far as shot size goes I think lots of people consider everything below buckshot as bird shot. I am sure that is an ok description but you take a 3 inch load of copper plated #4 turkey load and at 25 feet I bet your target wont ask what they just got shot with? We used to hunt coyotes in teams one guy calling the other guy on the rifle, the caller would either carry a pistol or a shotgun as those sneaky critters would circle and pop out right next to you (15 to 30 feet) many of them got laid low with turkey loads.

Just my thoughts I am by no means an expert

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:30 am

I don't know why ball and buck is loaded the way it is... I tried to find something that might give a reason, but I was unsuccessful. I suspect that it might be manufacturing reasons and like a lot of things with the shotgun, tradition. I can say that the reason the load was used was to increase the number of hits achieved from a smooth bore musket at distance in battle.

Turkey loads can kind of be equated to the ball and buck, now that I think about it. They are designed to give the best possible hit ratio against the target as possible. One of the reasons turkey loads are heavy, is that they have to penetrate the layers of feathers to reach their destination, there's a lot of pellets because you might have to take a longer range shot and they increase your chance of success. While the size of the shot is good for turkey, and critters, it does not have the mass to achieve optimal penetration in a man-sized target.

And penetration is key.

When shooting a non-expanding round of minimal diameter you want that thing to go as deep as you can to reach those pesky innards and barring that, for maximum blood loss.

So, why not turkey loads?

Simple, science.

LOL.

No really, Newtons first and second laws of motion. You know; the force on the mass equals acceleration, the size of the mass determines how fast and far... Yeah, that's a really simple way of putting it, but that's kinda the reason. You see things need to go fast, but they also need mass to achieve that balance for penetration.

We recommend 00 buck for the reason that the idea is to put as large a hole in the target as possible and achieve the deepest penetration possible by that round. 00 and 000 seems to be the right size and weight/mass for optimum speed and penetration.

Turkey loads don't have it.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by clarence » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:09 am

clarence wrote:Thanks to this thread, just ordered a Benelli Nova Pump Compact (20 gauge).

I'll probably bob the barrel to 18" (nearest vent rib), add a fiber optic front sight [Trijicon TrijiDot], two-point sling, and shotgun cards, and stock some #3 [buck] shot and rifled slugs.

Not sure what I'll do with it, but it completes the collection.
Thinking what to do with it, wondering if a defensive shotgun makes most sense as a hiking companion? Better against coydogs and hogs than my bolt-action .223?

The #3 buckshot would work against the former, but I assume slugs better against hogs. Do I load alternately?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:57 am

clarence wrote:
clarence wrote:Thanks to this thread, just ordered a Benelli Nova Pump Compact (20 gauge).

I'll probably bob the barrel to 18" (nearest vent rib), add a fiber optic front sight [Trijicon TrijiDot], two-point sling, and shotgun cards, and stock some #3 [buck] shot and rifled slugs.

Not sure what I'll do with it, but it completes the collection.
Thinking what to do with it, wondering if a defensive shotgun makes most sense as a hiking companion? Better against coydogs and hogs than my bolt-action .223?

The #3 buckshot would work against the former, but I assume slugs better against hogs. Do I load alternately?
Where do you live? If it's South Carolina, I'd say get a 10mm, EVERYONE in SC has a 10mm for hiking. LOL

The .223 will do fine against everything you mentioned. I have a buddy who lives in SC and he takes hogs all the time with his AR; 55 grain Wolf to be exact.

As for the shotgun load, while we don't recommend alternate loads, that choice is yours. I'd load it with slugs if your concerned about hogs, though. I don't know your location, but I'm not sure why you are concerned about them; are there a lot of feral and vicious dogs in the area? Are the hogs that aggressive? Curious.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by clarence » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:30 am

Thanks, Doc.

Tallahassee now, I'll be moving to the Texas Hill Country.

Not concerned, just struggling to justify the shotgun (would go with an AR if was).

How'd you set up a shotgun for hiking rather than home defense? Wishing it lightweight, you'd drop the light (unnecessary) and shell cards (only carry rounds on the HD shotgun because otherwise unprepared)?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by ashwednesday » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:43 am

doc66 wrote:
clarence wrote:
clarence wrote:Thanks to this thread, just ordered a Benelli Nova Pump Compact (20 gauge).

I'll probably bob the barrel to 18" (nearest vent rib), add a fiber optic front sight [Trijicon TrijiDot], two-point sling, and shotgun cards, and stock some #3 [buck] shot and rifled slugs.

Not sure what I'll do with it, but it completes the collection.
Thinking what to do with it, wondering if a defensive shotgun makes most sense as a hiking companion? Better against coydogs and hogs than my bolt-action .223?

The #3 buckshot would work against the former, but I assume slugs better against hogs. Do I load alternately?
Where do you live? If it's South Carolina, I'd say get a 10mm, EVERYONE in SC has a 10mm for hiking. LOL

The .223 will do fine against everything you mentioned. I have a buddy who lives in SC and he takes hogs all the time with his AR; 55 grain Wolf to be exact.

As for the shotgun load, while we don't recommend alternate loads, that choice is yours. I'd load it with slugs if your concerned about hogs, though. I don't know your location, but I'm not sure why you are concerned about them; are there a lot of feral and vicious dogs in the area? Are the hogs that aggressive? Curious.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:25 pm

clarence wrote:Thanks, Doc.

Tallahassee now, I'll be moving to the Texas Hill Country.

Not concerned, just struggling to justify the shotgun (would go with an AR if was).

How'd you set up a shotgun for hiking rather than home defense? Wishing it lightweight, you'd drop the light (unnecessary) and shell cards (only carry rounds on the HD shotgun because otherwise unprepared)?
The only sling I use any more is the Ares Armor Huskey. It's on my hunting rifles and my ARs and the Vickers is on my shotgun, lol. That's what I'd use, the Ares. They are the best of the breed IMO. I'd keep shells in a butt sleeve at least. Otherwise, it's just a shotty, and keeping it standard is one of the perks of the thing; no one sees one as being crazy tactical unless you dress it up a lot.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by clarence » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:28 pm

Thanks again.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by 00dlez » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:01 am

Taking a home defense shotgun class next week - comfortable with the basic handling/safety stuff, but outside of learning to reload effectively, is there any skills you recommend I insist on learning (or at least, insist on being exposed to for later practice)?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:30 pm

00dlez wrote:Taking a home defense shotgun class next week - comfortable with the basic handling/safety stuff, but outside of learning to reload effectively, is there any skills you recommend I insist on learning (or at least, insist on being exposed to for later practice)?
Man, the shotgun is all about the reload. And not shooting the thing dry.

You know what? Ask them their thought's on breaching without a standoff device, and if they even recommend it be done. There are techniques to doing so, and I'd be interested to see how they go about it. See if they think that it's even a viable answer to a HD situation; I can see using it in an extreme case where the subject had for some reason barricaded in the house--taken a hostage of a family member and you've cut off points of egress, say something extreme like that--but not really. I'd just be curious to hear an answer.

I'd see if they will set up extreme distances for the shotgun and let you shoot the 00 as far as possible and then do the same with slugs, because I assume they will have you shooting some of those slug things as well, most SG courses still do.

Also, if you don't have a light on your SG, get them to show you how to use one with the SG, If you are running a Surefire, there's a trick to doing it; Twist until it turns on, back the tail cap out until it just turns off, and then as you hold it in the off hand against the forearm, squeeze the light against the forearm, the pressure will turn the light on. It works really well with the old 6P. If they do talk about lights, make sure they explain about hot spots, over spill, and backwash.

But the reload is the key. Don't shoot the tube dry and reload after every third shot. There will be times you can't but reloading like that will keep ammo in there most of the time.

Have fun! Let us know how it went.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by jor-el » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:06 am

Didn't find the discussion on ammo carriers.

Undecided on which MOLLE pouch to go with;

Classic Vietnam War 12 round
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Improved 18 round with 6 exposed
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25 round expanding flap
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Some time ago I stitched several of the 12 round pouches ALICE style onto a LBV copy and it worked OK by itself but was a little heavy added onto body armor.

Wondering if anyone used those 25 round pouches.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:33 am

Any reason not to go with a card like the Esstac or SOE? They use standard AR mag pouches, and you just attach velcro to your scatterblatt in place of a side saddle and replace the velcro-backed cards when each runs dry.

Our breacher issue looked like the 25rd, but wider and with one less row. I think it was 8x4 or 7x4.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by BullOnParade » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:26 am

I feel the folding 25 would hang impractically low if mounted around waist height, or interfere with too much if mounted high.

Do the 12/18 rounders have retention within the pouch? Like, can you hold the flap open with Velcro and jump around a little without losing shells? I don't want to be dicking around with a flap when I need to reload often and am already hindered by the platform.

5.11 used to have a pouch that essentially mounted a full box to your gear (5x5)but I think it would stand out from your person a lot.

Shotgun cards in mag pouches are the cleanest, fastest, and most secure option.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by jor-el » Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:29 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Any reason not to go with a card like the Esstac or SOE? They use standard AR mag pouches, and you just attach velcro to your scatterblatt in place of a side saddle and replace the velcro-backed cards when each runs dry.

Our breacher issue looked like the 25rd, but wider and with one less row. I think it was 8x4 or 7x4.
To be honest, that's a relatively new development I'll have to train myself into.
All of my current muskets are set up with Sidesaddles and Speedfeeds, with the old style pouches or 25 round dump pouches for backup.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:14 am

jor-el wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Any reason not to go with a card like the Esstac or SOE? They use standard AR mag pouches, and you just attach velcro to your scatterblatt in place of a side saddle and replace the velcro-backed cards when each runs dry.

Our breacher issue looked like the 25rd, but wider and with one less row. I think it was 8x4 or 7x4.
To be honest, that's a relatively new development I'll have to train myself into.
All of my current muskets are set up with Sidesaddles and Speedfeeds, with the old style pouches or 25 round dump pouches for backup.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:52 pm

I love my essTac. Best thing for spares on the shotgun.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by clarence » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:09 am

One of my personal favorites is “you just need to rack the shotgun and criminals will run”. This is utter nonsense. In my first shooting, the two carjackers I was up against both told investigators individually in interviews that they heard me rack my Remington 870 as I exited my car. The effect it had was exactly nothing. They did not surrender or change their actions at all, other than to prepare for a fight.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:20 am

I guess I'm ahead of my time. This little write up gets ripped off all over the place.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by 00dlez » Thu May 04, 2017 3:57 pm

It'd be a shame if we let this go a whole year without a post!

Can we talk 20 gauge HD load recommendations? #4 was stated multiple times, but I think I'm missing out on the WHY
I've re-read (ok ok scanned) the thread and this was touched on a few times - pages 18, 32, and 34 mostly - but I don't feel like there was ever a real definitive answer that was clear to me.

00-buck in 12 gauges. 10-4, got it, no argument. 00-buck isn't available in 20 gauge due to the size making it just not work right, so others stated #4 buck was the best available... I don't know what I'm missing here, but #1 buck in a 20 gauge comes with 9 pellets and is the next largest pellet size after 00-buck.

Same number of pellets. As close as you can get in size. Similar velocities (from what I'm seeing). Why step all the way down to #4 with the pellet size and number of pellets so radically different from the venerable 9 pellet 00-buck loads sworn by in 12 gauge?

Is the patterning for #1 atrocious - like the 3 pellet 00-buck that was mentioned before?

Is it simply that #1 buck isn't as widely produced/available in stores in defensive/quality loads as #4 - or as cost effective?

Just curious why folks who recommend 00-buck in 12 gauge seem to depart so drastically in their recommendation for 20 gauge when there seems to be a very comparable load in #1 buck?

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http://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4- ... 250-rounds
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by woodsghost » Thu May 04, 2017 11:20 pm

Quick admission: I have only read the first page. And this most recent page. If this has been covered, I apologize.

There used to be companies selling 00 Buck in 20 ga in bulk. Those days seem to be gone? I can only find 2 companies who still do. Sorta.

http://wolfhillammo.com/20-gauge-specialty.aspx

https://alamoammo.com/shotgun-ammo/20-g ... 20e0809e09

As long as the pellet is going a certain velocity and has a certain mass, it will do the same job, ballistically.

More pellets means more holes in the target. More holes means more rapid loss of blood. That leads to more rapid physiological stops. There is a sweet spot where bigger balls means fewer fit in the tube, you have deeper penetration but less potential for rapid blood loss.

#4 seems to have the greatest potential for high surface area leading to faster blood loss while retaining adequate penetration. 00 Buck seem to have a great balance of deep, reliable penetration and rapid effect on target. #1 loses some of that penetration but more shot means more rapid blood loss potential.

I like looking to hunters when thinking about defensive loads. Pig and deer hunters seem to like 00 and even 000 Buck. If there are hunters out there using #4 on deer and hogs I'd love to hear their experiences. I honestly just have not read about hunters using that load. In fact, the only place I have ever read #4 was liked was in Vietnam where it would have been used on 80-120 lb indigenous people wearing thin cotton clothing. Around here the deer don't come that small.

The thing I have caught from YouTubers who like shotguns is that gauge does not matter. Velocity and mass matter. But gauge and length do matter as they determine how much of a particular shot size can be thrown at the target. I would feel comfortable with 00 Buck and probably with #1 Buck.

Ballistically, #1 Buck is about like a .22. Approx 40 gr at approx 1200-1300 fps puts it in the neighborhood of the .22 I shoot. We all seem to like the .22 for survival and maybe zombies. Putting 9-12 rounds of that on a target instantly seems pretty good to me. But frankly, I don't know. I"ve not actually shot critters with such a load. I actually have not shot any critters with any size shot but #5 and #7.5. The #5 has done much better in my experience.

Just my limited experience and current contribution to the conversation. I have way more to learn than to contribute.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by gunsandrockets » Fri May 05, 2017 8:58 am

00dlez wrote:It'd be a shame if we let this go a whole year without a post!

Can we talk 20 gauge HD load recommendations? #4 was stated multiple times, but I think I'm missing out on the WHY
I've re-read (ok ok scanned) the thread and this was touched on a few times - pages 18, 32, and 34 mostly - but I don't feel like there was ever a real definitive answer that was clear to me.

00-buck in 12 gauges. 10-4, got it, no argument. 00-buck isn't available in 20 gauge due to the size making it just not work right, so others stated #4 buck was the best available... I don't know what I'm missing here, but #1 buck in a 20 gauge comes with 9 pellets and is the next largest pellet size after 00-buck.

Same number of pellets. As close as you can get in size. Similar velocities (from what I'm seeing). Why step all the way down to #4 with the pellet size and number of pellets so radically different from the venerable 9 pellet 00-buck loads sworn by in 12 gauge?

Is the patterning for #1 atrocious - like the 3 pellet 00-buck that was mentioned before?

Is it simply that #1 buck isn't as widely produced/available in stores in defensive/quality loads as #4 - or as cost effective?

Just curious why folks who recommend 00-buck in 12 gauge seem to depart so drastically in their recommendation for 20 gauge when there seems to be a very comparable load in #1 buck?
I've done some research on this, and from what I've found the best choices for a 20 gauge seem to be #2 buckshot in a 3 inch shell (18 pellets) or #3 buckshot in a 2.75 inch shell (20 pellets). In 20 gauge shotguns designed for both 3 inch and 2.75 inch shells, I suspect the 3 inch shell will probably function more reliably in semi-auto shotguns (OAL feed issues?) and the 2.75 inch more reliably in pump actions (less vulnerable to short stroking?).

Of course the best buckshot all depends on what you want from your shotgun. For home defense, the ranges will be so short (under 10 yards) that all buckshot types should work pretty well if they function reliably in your shotgun. I doubt that the patterning and the penetration of different buckshot loads would demonstrate significant differences until longer ranges.

The smaller the buckshot pellet the less penetration it has and the quicker it slows down in air. I wouldn't trust the penetration of #4 buckshot beyond a range of 20 yards. But then a shotgun shell can hold a awful lot of those tiny #4 buckshot pellets.

The larger the buckshot the fewer pellets per shell, and the fewer the pellets the shorter the maximum practical range as the pellet pattern density gets too low to hit the target reliably. Which is why I prefer buckshot smaller than 00 in a 12 gauge shotgun. One nice load is the Winchester 12 gauge with 24 pellets of #1 buckshot in a 3 inch shell.

Are nine pellets per shell enough for home defense? Is #4 buckshot large enough for home defense? If the answers are yes, one could argue for a .410 shotgun since there is a Federal 9 pellet load for the .410 which uses #4 sized buckshot.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 12, 2017 10:32 am

Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by woodsghost » Fri May 12, 2017 12:19 pm

Stercutus wrote:Oh my... what is this?




This guy is not all stupid and wordy like a few I can think of. He has made a few good vids.

1) He is falling into the "28 gauge is less powerful than 12 gauge" myth. See ~9:30. Physics says E=MV(sq), whether that is from a .410, a 28 ga, or a 12 ga. Again, as long as the mass and velocity are the same, the energy is the same. The only difference is how many pellets are in the air. If velocity or mass were different he could claim differences in power. He has some similar issues in a number of his vids. He is not perfect, but he does a pretty good job. I like him.

2) His target analogs are nice, but not nice enough for my taste. None of those were 12 inches thick, and they lack a skin layer. The gelatin is not a direct flesh analogue. Per Fackler, it is simply a test medium that allows us to make predictions about the effect of a bullet in actual flesh based on what the bullet does in the test medium. It is not a "apples to apples" test. It is a "apples to oranges but we can then translate to apples from the effect on oranges" type of test. I forget which of his papers he wrote that in, but he did write it and last I checked they are publicly available for double checking.

3) I stand by my original statement. Look at what is allowed or recommended for hunting. Is #4 birdshot recommended (or allowed) for hog or deer hunting? I have not seen it recommended, so I would not use it for HD. Yes, limiting ranges to 5 yards is different from hunting, but I still have concerns.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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