the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

[00dlez]

I have a bundle of No.4 shot coming that I managed to get at a reasonable price ($55 otd for 100 shells... given its 16 gauge it's not the worst). Given it is a single shot and most certainly NOT a go-to self defense choice (very much my last resort, god forbid) is No.4 even close to serviceable or should I keep my eye out for a 5 box of heavier loads still?

Depends on if you are talking about #4 bird shot, or #4 buck shot.

It's #4 buck - sorry for confusion, thanks for the tips

[AS556]

4 buck is just fine. I think the pellets are .25 with about 27 in a 12 gauge shell.

Here's a gel test of it (not in 16ga but comparable):

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthr ... ?p=5948615

I think that 1 buck maybe the best in theory but I really only use 00 personally.

[ashwednesday]

Hope this isn't too far off-topic. I watched the Predators movie again the other day, the low -rent one by Troublemaker Studios with the flexed-up Adrien Brody, Topher Grace, Michelle Rodriguez, Danny Trejo, and Lawrence Fishburne. Adrien Brody's character has that AA12, which I thought was kinda' b.a. first time I saw the movie. This time around I noticed he was sort of firing it from the hip instead of shouldering it, realized he had the sling coming under his shoulder and over the support shoulder, the opposite of how modern two point slings are used, making it (presumably) awkward to shoulder.

I might have yelled at the tv a little bit. Funny how a (tiny) little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

The only shotgun I'm really interested in currently is the Mossberg 930 SPX.

[doc66]

Hope this isn't too far off-topic. I watched the Predators movie again the other day, the low -rent one by Troublemaker Studios with the flexed-up Adrien Brody, Topher Grace, Michelle Rodriguez, Danny Trejo, and Lawrence Fishburne. Adrien Brody's character has that AA12, which I thought was kinda' b.a. first time I saw the movie. This time around I noticed he was sort of firing it from the hip instead of shouldering it, realized he had the sling coming under his shoulder and over the support shoulder, the opposite of how modern two point slings are used, making it (presumably) awkward to shoulder.

I might have yelled at the tv a little bit. Funny how a (tiny) little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

The only shotgun I'm really interested in currently is the Mossberg 930 SPX.

[AS556]

Funny, I used to run my sling like that til I learned better. Truthfully, for me it shoulders easier that way it's just damn near impossible to transition to your pistol.

[Mikeyboy]

Hope this isn't too far off-topic. I watched the Predators movie again the other day, the low -rent one by Troublemaker Studios with the flexed-up Adrien Brody, Topher Grace, Michelle Rodriguez, Danny Trejo, and Lawrence Fishburne. Adrien Brody's character has that AA12, which I thought was kinda' b.a. first time I saw the movie. This time around I noticed he was sort of firing it from the hip instead of shouldering it, realized he had the sling coming under his shoulder and over the support shoulder, the opposite of how modern two point slings are used, making it (presumably) awkward to shoulder.

I might have yelled at the tv a little bit. Funny how a (tiny) little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

The only shotgun I'm really interested in currently is the Mossberg 930 SPX.

You mean this

[Jeriah]

Re: shot sizes, we were discussing this in another thread (about zombies), so I did a shitload of coconut tests with different loads. And then bought a Vepr 12. Discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=113386&start=120

[Hollis]

Let me know about the Vepr, I just picked one up on a trade with a friend. So far, it is fun.

[doc66]

Thanks for reposting this, Jeriah. I never saw it the first time around.

[00dlez]

Posted in the general chat thread, but thought it would be helpful to include it here as well:

I shot a USSG SAR yesterday and really liked it. (This: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-413)
TLDR: Cycles lower powered rounds fine for me and made the 12g recoil much more manageable to the point I don't think I want a 20 gauge anymore. For the price, it seems like a great deal on a HD styled shotgun.

I've been looking for an HD styled shotgun the GF and I both agree on and it's been rough going so far. She had ruled out 12 gauge pump/single shots due to recoil, so I had planned on a 20 gauge, something like the pistol grip/ghost ring sight version of the Stevens 320. The SAR had the same sights/ergos I was looking for, so I thought I'd give it a try before buying something.

I had read online that it had issues cycling (as most semi-auto shotguns do) with lighter loads, but I gave it a try with some RIO low recoil 00-buck... Cycled 15 shells with no problems, which I was pleasantly surprised by. Felt recoil was right around, and maybe slightly less than what we get from our CETME, which is her favorite to shoot, so I think we've found a winner.

I found that the POI was a little low on the silhouettes using the stock sights, but the patterning overall I was happy with. No concerns at 7-15 yards, and I kept 16 of 18 pellets on the silhouette at 25 yards. It was a very short range trip due to time constraints, but I knew I wouldn't have another chance for probably the next month and I just couldn't wait to get a few rounds through it.

I've only shot the 15 rounds, so I am hardly an expert, but while I'm at it, I'll address some of the criticisms I've seen online:
1) The hold open feature doesn't work!
Yes it does. It's a "smart shotgun" and knows if you pulled the trigger, so it won't hold open until there was a trigger pull and no shells left in the tube. There are several videos online of people demonstrating how it works and various ways to load a specific round without unloading other shells.

2) It won't cycle low powered rounds!
Probably not field loads, but low recoil buck worked just fine for me, and there are several videos out there with suggestions to get it to cycle even lighter loads as well... I seem to recall one video where they ran Estate 6 shot without a problem, or few problems.

3) There are no aftermarket accessories!
That's basically true! Do your research before buying something, then giving it a bad review for your laziness! That said, I believe a Rem 870 tube extension is compatible. There are other reports of people piecing together accessories from various other model that work, so its possible, but a bit of a pain to track down parts. Like I said before, it checked all of my boxes (pistol grip, ghost rings) out of the box, so this wasn't a big deal for me.

[91Eunozs]

OK, so I promise I read through the thread, and while I may have skipped a couple pages and skimmed a few more, didn't see this exact question discussed.

For HD I'm firmly in the 00 Buck camp...after being educated a couple years ago on the nature of alternating 00 Buck and slugs. However, yesterday I was stocking up on a variety of different brands/types of buckshot (#2, #1, 0 and 00 Buck) to feed the latest addition to the armory and then I saw these sitting on the shelf:



I went ahead and bought a box...conveniently 10 rounds to perfectly fill the new 9+1 shotty. My son and I will pattern these along with others to see how it shoots in this gun.

I'm a little skeptical, but mostly good reviews, including some seemingly reputable online blogs.

Thoughts from the hive mind?

[91Eunozs]

I've got a 2+1 870, does that count?

Man, I would LOVE to show up at one of our trap/skeet club meets with that! All the folks standing around with their $3-4K Berettas and Brownings, or their $10K+ Krieghoffs would give me the stink eye for sure... "But it's legal...only 2 in the pipe!"



...sorry for the two year necro, too cool to not post!

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Mixed loads like buck'n'ball and the "Rhodesian jungle" tend to pattern poorly, as the heavier projectile will push the lighter projectiles out of the way.

[00dlez]

I'm pretty sure this did get touched on briefly in this thread (not that I blame you for skimming) and if I recall correctly, the consensus was that you are giving up six 00 pellets for a questionably effective/accurate slug.

ETA: Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=109&t=75701&p=2103261&h ... l#p2103261

[91Eunozs]

I'm pretty sure this did get touched on briefly in this thread (not that I blame you for skimming) and if I recall correctly, the consensus was that you are giving up six 00 pellets for a questionably effective/accurate slug.

ETA: Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=109&t=75701&p=2103261&h ... l#p2103261

Thanks! I thought I'd seen it too but clearly missed it on the re-read... Dunno why the search didn't find it.

[Jeriah]

OK, so I promise I read through the thread, and while I may have skipped a couple pages and skimmed a few more, didn't see this exact question discussed.

For HD I'm firmly in the 00 Buck camp...after being educated a couple years ago on the nature of alternating 00 Buck and slugs. However, yesterday I was stocking up on a variety of different brands/types of buckshot (#2, #1, 0 and 00 Buck) to feed the latest addition to the armory and then I saw these sitting on the shelf:



I went ahead and bought a box...conveniently 10 rounds to perfectly fill the new 9+1 shotty. My son and I will pattern these along with others to see how it shoots in this gun.

I'm a little skeptical, but mostly good reviews, including some seemingly reputable online blogs.

Thoughts from the hive mind?

I'm pretty sure this did get touched on briefly in this thread (not that I blame you for skimming) and if I recall correctly, the consensus was that you are giving up six 00 pellets for a questionably effective/accurate slug.

ETA: Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=109&t=75701&p=2103261&h ... l#p2103261

Mixed loads like buck'n'ball and the "Rhodesian jungle" tend to pattern poorly, as the heavier projectile will push the lighter projectiles out of the way.

The real issue for me is that at close range, you're probably better off with plain old buckshot. It'll pattern more consistently and create the multiple gnarly wound channels that we love buckshot for. The slug is going to push the buckshot out of the way maybe, and if so, it may create flyers that hit off target and become a liability.

Then, at longer ranges, you may need a slug, because your pattern is loose enough at that distance that you can't be sure of where all your projectiles are going to go. In that case, you need a plain old slug, a single projectile, to turn your shotgun into a shitty rifle. A musket, really. This is so you can place one projectile on target instead of peppering your thin interior wall with multiple holes. In this case, adding buck to a slug defeats the purpose of the slug.

Buck and ball was used in the flintlock smooth bored muskets issued to the US Army for the invasion of Mexico in the 1840s, and in that context (pre rifle musket) it made some sense. Big battle lines meant you could aim at one dude and let the buck irritate and annoy the dudes around him. But unless you're marching onto a 19th century battlefield, it's useless. And even then, they replaced it as soon as they developed the rifle musket.

[procyon]

Yes, buck & ball had it's place in Napoleonic battlefields - but not so much today.

[O.D. Green]

I got a KSG and was wondering if any members had any suggestions on some sight options, I'm not interested in red dot on this one, been looking for some ghost ring but the models I saw were not rail mount ones, does anyone know who make decent affordable sights?

[Makembite]

A k12 puma 12 gauge is arriving at my place Monday, and I'm super excited. I think this rectifies a lot of the short comings of a shotgun. I still believe that a shotgun is a half step between a pistol and rifle, but the ability to reload quickly, and use it with one hand make it a formidable weapon.

[KGBrick]

A k12 puma 12 gauge is arriving at my place Monday, and I'm super excited. I think this rectifies a lot of the short comings of a shotgun. I still believe that a shotgun is a half step between a pistol and rifle, but the ability to reload quickly, and use it with one hand make it a formidable weapon.

That thing is ugly as hell and I can see where they kept parts simple to hold the price down, but I sure would like to spend some quality time with one. I like novel designs - and I think shotguns have a lot of room left for innovation. They just aren't my thing for defensive use.

[doc66]

A k12 puma 12 gauge is arriving at my place Monday, and I'm super excited. I think this rectifies a lot of the short comings of a shotgun. I still believe that a shotgun is a half step between a pistol and rifle, but the ability to reload quickly, and use it with one hand make it a formidable weapon.

What magazine does it use?

[Makembite]

Proprietary magazine as far as I know. I wish it took grizzly mags, or Valtro mags. Oh well. I just got it, and I'm surprised how light it is! Just have to get the packing grease off it, and I'll take it out for a blast. I really like how it feels.

[doc66]

Proprietary magazine as far as I know. I wish it took grizzly mags, or Valtro mags. Oh well. I just got it, and I'm surprised how light it is! Just have to get the packing grease off it, and I'll take it out for a blast. I really like how it feels.

Bummer. Why do companies do that? Are they stupid expensive or reasonable?

When you get a chance, give us a run down of what you think...

[Bearcat]

Proprietary magazine as far as I know. I wish it took grizzly mags, or Valtro mags. Oh well. I just got it, and I'm surprised how light it is! Just have to get the packing grease off it, and I'll take it out for a blast. I really like how it feels.

Bummer. Why do companies do that? Are they stupid expensive or reasonable?

When you get a chance, give us a run down of what you think...

Perhaps they have come up with a better design? Although most, like H&K, just like to make more profit. In the case of shotgun mags, is there really a mag design considered to be as common as the STANAG AR mag is to 5.56 rifles?