the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by iron_angel » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:07 pm

I've found quite a few #2 (all magnum) and #1 buck loads for the 20ga. No Man's Land Ammo - http://www.custombuckshot.com/product.html - has some interesting loads, though they're not precisely cheap. That said, #3 is still what I see the most of. I have to hunt for the larger shot sizes.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by procyon » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:35 pm

I would be very curious to see how they pattern.
With 00 being .33" and a 20 ga being (nominally) .62" - there is just no way to stack them so that you could get any pellets to stack side by side without staggering them vertically - which results in the horrible 'line' pattern.

I may have to buy a box just to tear apart a couple shells and see how they are put together. And measure the buckshot. I've aquired several micrometers over the years for reloading - and it may be fun to see just how big the 00 is.

Till then, I am interested if slightly skeptical. If they have come up with a way to defy physics and fit the pellets in such a way that they pattern well - I may have to buy a couple boxes. They would definitely increase what I could use our 20 ga shotguns for.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by iron_angel » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:58 pm

Yeah, I'm curious how the 00 shells pattern, too.

I did test out the NML #1 nickel-plated buck shells (high velocity version, since the Saiga likes heavy loads better) in a Saiga (20" bbl, cylinder choke, IIRC) - consistently about a 5.5" pattern at 10 meters, which I'd call pretty good. Not nearly as tight as Federal's Flight Control Wad loads, but AFAIK those only exist in 12ga. I've heard rumors that they might make a 20ga buck load with that wad, but nothing beyond gun-shop-rumor-mongering. Sure would be nice if they did, though.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Das Sheep » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:01 pm

Their only $12.99 for a box of 25 shells at Academy Sports, so its not expensive to test it out!

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by AS556 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:42 pm

Doc, I got 2 3/4" #3 buck in 20ga at Cabelas. I will have to research what load is best but I'm cool with #3 for now. It's coming out of a 22" Mossy 500 youth model.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:34 pm

Groovy. I'll check the next time I'm near one!

So I checked out a buddy's ATI semiauto the other day. It's a pretty neat shotgun. Lightweight and holds eight rounds. I can't wait to do some shooting with it! The price is right as well if it holds up.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by thrillbilly » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:18 pm

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New Haven Mossberg 500 I payed 50$ for last year.

Cut barrel to 18.5'' reinstalled bead
put a polymer stock on it I had around...it's trimmed one inch in length
forearm is what used to be a ATI front pistol grip (bought it years ago, always hated it...recently figured out how to modify it to be useful)

assorted tactical KyrlonKamo


Stock ammo carrier Ive had since I was about 16 years old.


total money in it, still 50 dollars.


I want to upgrade my ammo carrying capability...bolt a ATI carrier to butt and get a velcro-mounted ''sidesaddle'' for receiver.


It's setup for inside my home only, 5 rounds of 00B in it, 3 rounds of 00B and 2 rounds of slugs on the stock. I will also have my G19...and if I head outside Im grabbing a rifle instead.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Bearcat » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:22 pm

That's a helluva deal!
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by thrillbilly » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:02 am

Bearcat wrote:That's a helluva deal!

well, it was on shelf of pawn shop....it looked HORRIBLE. Like, it wasnt even a truck-gun...it looked like it had been a tractor-gun.

Stock was cracked, was battered to hell, rusted, mag-follower was stuck up inside the tube...safety was busted.

It was marked 175$ and I put two 20s and a 10 on the counter and told em ''take it or keep it''

I was just buying the barrel, for my other mossbergs.....but when I got it cleaned up (HORRIBLE..I had literally a pile of crud, debris and dirt that came out) it ran and shot great...hell its slicker then snot now. I think someone bought it in the 80s, abused it, and never once cleaned it at all.

I took a foot off the barrel, it was a 28'' Mod barrel.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by procyon » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:31 pm

Not to be picky, but in the pic - aren't your shells in the holder the wrong way around?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by thrillbilly » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:32 pm

procyon wrote:Not to be picky, but in the pic - aren't your shells in the holder the wrong way around?
Possibly? I dunno, I'm not very high-speed.

If you put brass UP...it's way less likely to fall out/get knocked out/shook out during recoil. I'm a hunter/woodsman not a tactical guy...brass up makes more sense in the woods, so old habit I guess.

I've had buddies come back to the truck with shells missing out of their carriers because they got shook out. (brass down)

That's why I want the ATI carrier, had one on my 535, it is very secure...brass down is just fine in those. I just aint ''got round'' to ordering a couple yet.

Those elastic Allen carriers are 4.97$, ya get what you pay for. They work but they aint ''Operator Approved'' I wouldn't say lol
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:49 pm

thrillbilly wrote:
procyon wrote:Not to be picky, but in the pic - aren't your shells in the holder the wrong way around?
Possibly? I dunno, I'm not very high-speed.

If you put brass UP...it's way less likely to fall out/get knocked out/shook out during recoil. I'm a hunter/woodsman not a tactical guy...brass up makes more sense in the woods, so old habit I guess.

I've had buddies come back to the truck with shells missing out of their carriers because they got shook out. (brass down)

That's why I want the ATI carrier, had one on my 535, it is very secure...brass down is just fine in those. I just aint ''got round'' to ordering a couple yet.

Those elastic Allen carriers are 4.97$, ya get what you pay for. They work but they aint ''Operator Approved'' I wouldn't say lol
Shotgun cards and adhesive velcro, man.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by thrillbilly » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:20 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Shotgun cards and adhesive velcro, man.

I had to google that

so THAT'S what those new things I been seeing on tactical shotguns are called.

cheap enough too, think I shall get 2...one for stock and one for receiver.

Would give me 19 rounds of 12G ready to grab&go :D


http://www.skdtac.com/Esstac-Shotgun-Card-p/ess.106.htm

A link to place to purchase, if anyone else is interested. (although I might be the last person NOT to know about these)
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by BullOnParade » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:26 pm

ESStac Shotgun Cards was cross referenced in this thread a few pages back, but we might as well refresh.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Dave_M » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:09 pm

HSGI also makes shotgun cards. They hold fewer shells but have a more rigid frame.
http://www.highspeedgear.com/hsgi/shot- ... 5SS00.html

Comes in a two-pack. Noteworthy that one fits nicely in a Taco pouch. Also seen guys that added Velcro to the front of a mag pouch as a convenient place to store an extra tray.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:35 pm

Still using my Esstac cards. Awesome stuff, holding up well after--more than a year?
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by AS556 » Fri May 30, 2014 6:03 pm

Is the Savage 320 any good? Put one on layaway today. Ghost ring sights with a fiber optic front. Seems solid to me.

Will a VCAS work on it? I'm not big into shotguns.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by TDW586 » Sat May 31, 2014 8:06 am

AS556 wrote:Is the Savage 320 any good? Put one on layaway today. Ghost ring sights with a fiber optic front. Seems solid to me.

Will a VCAS work on it? I'm not big into shotguns.
You'd have to do some simple mods to install the sling swivels, but yeah, a VCAS would work.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by AS556 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:22 pm

TDW586 wrote:
AS556 wrote:Is the Savage 320 any good? Put one on layaway today. Ghost ring sights with a fiber optic front. Seems solid to me.

Will a VCAS work on it? I'm not big into shotguns.
You'd have to do some simple mods to install the sling swivels, but yeah, a VCAS would work.
Cool, thanks. I ended up switching my layaway to a Kahr CW9. I'll stash that tidbit of info away for later, though.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Beowolf » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:13 pm

Too bad you're not local--I just picked up the 320 combo in a trade. Will be putting that up for sale shortly.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by AS556 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:17 pm

Beowolf wrote:Too bad you're not local--I just picked up the 320 combo in a trade. Will be putting that up for sale shortly.
Is it a POS? I read some bad things about it.

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Beowolf » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:27 pm

I've heard both good and bad.

It was part of a package trade+cash that I needed to make happen for the cash. Figured I could flip it without much effort. Especially since it's got the hunting and security barrels.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:39 pm

AS556 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:Too bad you're not local--I just picked up the 320 combo in a trade. Will be putting that up for sale shortly.
Is it a POS? I read some bad things about it.
It's Remington clone, if I remember correctly. Made in the same factory as the IAC Hawk. I think the IAC is a better gun, better finished by a hair, and takes Remington stocks directly. No idea about forends. Mount a light with a remote switch via barrel clamp and it's a decent bare-bones "combat" shotgun, but if you're looking do do more than throw a spare stock and a light on it, maybe an RDS if you have the model with the ghost rings and rails, then you'd be better served waiting for a used Remington to come along. Wingmasters aren't tough to come by for the same price, and if you're gonna change barrels, forends, stocks, etc you might be better off scouring the classifieds for a police trade-in gun or someone's.

I used to move the Stevens and the Hawks, usually within a couple weeks of getting them on the books. Considering I really only sold at gun shows on the weekends, they were pretty popular for budget HD guns or Jr's first scattergat, particularly the package with the combat and hunting barrel. Rough, a bit heavier than necessary particularly the steel-receiver Hawk, but pretty solid. Rate it above a Hipoint Carbine easily.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by mr.trooper » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:33 pm

If I remember, our department long gun training was 12 hours of classroom instruction, and a 4 hour range trip - but that was a combined tutorial for the Remington 870 and the Colt AR15.

It certainly didn't make anyone an expert, but it was still better than nothing. I had owned my person 870 for years before that, and shot both of those weapons for most of my life and I still picked up several juicy tid bits of information about both platforms. I ended up buying a set of snap caps, and periodically practicing at home.

We never used slugs in the shotguns, ever. That's what the ARs were for.
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