The All Purpose AK Thread

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:07 pm

JF89 wrote:How do the Hungarian AKs compare to Wasrs? Im not an AK guy at all and the only AK I have owned was a Saiga(wich I miss dearly). The AK market sure sucks, its too bad the AR15 companies wouldnt do like PSA(only better) and build AKs on the side...I would love A BCM,LMT,DD or SOLGW AK.
From what I understand, the Hungarian AKs are pretty good if you get one with an FEG (original Hungarian manufacturer of them) receiver. There's some in the US that use a US made receiver and those can have issues. If you get one with the original Hungarian receiver, you're good.

Classic Firearms has a bunch of them for like 499 bucks now and they go on sale quite often.

The only differences I've noticed between my two AKs, one's a Hungarian and the other is basically a fancy Romanian AK, are that the gas piston on the Hungarian is shorter and it uses a smaller diameter handguard retainer than what's on my Romanian. That's only an issue if you plan on swapping the furniture on a Hungarian AK. There will be some fitting needed to fit properly, but it's not too bad.

I've got an Vltor AK stock adapter and a Magpul CTR stock on my Hungarian AK and a Magpul AK handguard on it as well. The Magpul handguard needed a little fitting done to fit the aforementioned smaller diameter handguard retainer and the stock tube needed to be lightly smacked with a rubber mallet to line up with the rear tang. But it was maybe a 20 minute job and everything is fine now.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by woodsghost » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:45 pm

JF89 wrote:How do the Hungarian AKs compare to Wasrs? Im not an AK guy at all and the only AK I have owned was a Saiga(wich I miss dearly). The AK market sure sucks, its too bad the AR15 companies wouldnt do like PSA(only better) and build AKs on the side...I would love A BCM,LMT,DD or SOLGW AK.
Another route is buy one of the Polish or ... Whatever barreled receivers with everything but furniture and the FCG that Atlantic sells. That is what most people really want. The furniture and FCG get changed minutes after the gun arrives home.

I know Moab has a business building AKs. I'd talk to Jim and maybe see what it would cost to get a barreled receiver from him. I think if you want good metallurgy, good build quality with good attention to detail, that is the route you want to look at.

Another route is to call Atlantic and ask how many Hungarian AKs they get returned. Ask what customer feedback they have received. Just go ahead and call or email.


Just some ideas.

Also Chimpsky has good insights. I'm glad he posted.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:13 pm

woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:How do the Hungarian AKs compare to Wasrs? Im not an AK guy at all and the only AK I have owned was a Saiga(wich I miss dearly). The AK market sure sucks, its too bad the AR15 companies wouldnt do like PSA(only better) and build AKs on the side...I would love A BCM,LMT,DD or SOLGW AK.
Another route is buy one of the Polish or ... Whatever barreled receivers with everything but furniture and the FCG that Atlantic sells. That is what most people really want. The furniture and FCG get changed minutes after the gun arrives home.

I know Moab has a business building AKs. I'd talk to Jim and maybe see what it would cost to get a barreled receiver from him. I think if you want good metallurgy, good build quality with good attention to detail, that is the route you want to look at.

Another route is to call Atlantic and ask how many Hungarian AKs they get returned. Ask what customer feedback they have received. Just go ahead and call or email.


Just some ideas.

Also Chimpsky has good insights. I'm glad he posted.
I don't know if they are still for sale. But Atlantic has some Hungarian AK63 barreled receivers on chrome lined barrels(!) for $499. And I like their stuff. All you need is furniture, fcg and a recoil spring. Which you'd want to customize yourself anyway. Not the recoil spring. But everything else.

Avoid Clearview Investments AMD's. To be avoided.

We do builds. But you have to supply all the parts. Our build prices are the most economical that I've seen. $299 with barrel already installed. $375 without the barrel installed. But this would not be an alternative to a barreled receiver. That barreled receiver is a way better deal than if you bought your kit and all parts and had it put together. You can't beat that price.

Atlantic also has Polish barreled receivers. And they regularly sell Romanians too. Under the house brand "High Standard". I think barreled receivers are the best way to go at the moment. $500 for an AK with a chrome lined barrel is a great deal.

I would not buy them. Just out of principle not because they are bad. But PSA sells a black polymer stock set with fcg and recoil spring for $99. So for $599 youd' have a new AK with everything. Personally I'd put some polymer (try AOA for this.) or wood furniture (AOA NOS Polish laminate for $89) on one and an ALG trigger for $60(?). And you'd have a really nice AK.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:18 pm

One of the groups I belong to has this in their mission statement:

" I.O, Century's manufactured C39 v1 and v2, Their hungarian kit builds, RAS47, Hesse, Blackheart, Lee Armory, PSA, Pioneers cast trash, Clearview's Hungarian builds, AND Riley Defense are NOT recommended here."

That's a pretty definitive list of what NOT to buy. I forgot to mention in my previous post that CAI Hungarians aren't any good either. Most of the guns on that list suffer from bad metallurgy, build quality or customer service. If not all three. ;)
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:45 pm

I haven't heard too much negative on the Hungarian AKs Classic Firearms sold. Only thing negative I've heard about is the barrels being a little 'soft', but otherwise good to go. I think they're Green Mountain barrels, but I could be wrong.

Most folks aren't going to shoot enough 7.62x39 to really wear them out. And if they do, a Faxon barrel from AIM Surplus is 150 bucks and with the popularity of the AK platform, nearly any decent gunsmith ought to be able to swap out the barrels in a bit for a small fee.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by Bearcat » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:29 pm

Just found out that US Palm closed last year :gonk: I love their AK grips. What's the next best thing now? Magpul?
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by Langenator » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:14 pm

Personally, I've always liked the Tapco SAW style grips.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:19 pm

Bearcat wrote:Just found out that US Palm closed last year :gonk: I love their AK grips. What's the next best thing now? Magpul?
Magpul makes some good AK grips. I've got them on my AKs and I added some camo grip tape to them to get more grip to mine since they're a little slick. Others may find them to be nice and grippy, though. It was more a personal preference thing than a knock against Magpul.

Hell, half the stuff I have on my AKs is from Magpul, so they must be doing something right. :lol:

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:38 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Bearcat wrote:Just found out that US Palm closed last year :gonk: I love their AK grips. What's the next best thing now? Magpul?
Magpul makes some good AK grips. I've got them on my AKs and I added some camo grip tape to them to get more grip to mine since they're a little slick. Others may find them to be nice and grippy, though. It was more a personal preference thing than a knock against Magpul.

Hell, half the stuff I have on my AKs is from Magpul, so they must be doing something right. :lol:
A little bit of trivia/fun fact. We (Legion Arms) supplied magpul with their Yugo parts kit. When they made a Yugo to base their designs on.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:16 pm

moab wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Bearcat wrote:Just found out that US Palm closed last year :gonk: I love their AK grips. What's the next best thing now? Magpul?
Magpul makes some good AK grips. I've got them on my AKs and I added some camo grip tape to them to get more grip to mine since they're a little slick. Others may find them to be nice and grippy, though. It was more a personal preference thing than a knock against Magpul.

Hell, half the stuff I have on my AKs is from Magpul, so they must be doing something right. :lol:
A little bit of trivia/fun fact. We (Legion Arms) supplied magpul with their Yugo parts kit. When they made a Yugo to base their designs on.
That is pretty neat.

Only contact I've had with them is me emailing them with an idea for a gray logo ball cap. Never heard much back from them regarding it, but I did see a black ball cap with a gray Magpul logo about six months later on Amazon and Magpul's own website.

I can't say for certain that my idea was passed up the chain and put into production, but I like to think that maybe someone liked it enough to borrow certain aspects. :lol:

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:33 pm

So I think I did pretty good...

Picked up an Arsenal 106FR .223/556 with a messed up bullet guide and a brand new chf arsenal barrel for $720 shipped. I can fix the bullet guide for about $50. Came with a circle ten mag. So I'm in it for right around $720. NEw their $1016. Not my shitty pics. It's a bit worn. But with the new barrel I feel confident we can get her feeding issues under control. Have wanted a 5.56 in an AK platform for awhile.

Anyone with experience with one of these? Opinions?

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by JF89 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:17 am

So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by woodsghost » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:32 am

JF89 wrote:So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.
You nailed it with "fit and finish." At one time the QC of WASRs was spotty at best and I think that is why they gained a poor reputation. Otherwise, the metallurgy of the WASR is top notch.

BTW, even Arsenal has QC issues from time to time. Nobody is perfect.

Now, depending on the year, a WASR might have mashed rivits, canted front sight, or canted gas block. If it is newer it likely does not have those, but it will have cheap/low quality wood furniture, so plan on replacing it with better furniture. That WASR is more like $200 less than the Arsenal if you think that way. And if there is a QC issue then the WASR is maybe not much cheaper than the Arsenal. Just something to think about.

I love my WASR. I got it for about $400 and it has taken deer and shot plenty of rounds without issue. Someday I'll own an Arsenal too, but that day is a long ways off.

Another point: Romanian labor is cheaper than the Americans working on Arsenals. But if you look up Arsenal, there are some cool things they do at the factory to try and make sure they are putting out good product. Which, again, they are not 100% perfect. I don't have to search hard to find serious complaints about them, but in general they are good rifles.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:15 pm

woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.
You nailed it with "fit and finish." At one time the QC of WASRs was spotty at best and I think that is why they gained a poor reputation. Otherwise, the metallurgy of the WASR is top notch.

BTW, even Arsenal has QC issues from time to time. Nobody is perfect.

Now, depending on the year, a WASR might have mashed rivits, canted front sight, or canted gas block. If it is newer it likely does not have those, but it will have cheap/low quality wood furniture, so plan on replacing it with better furniture. That WASR is more like $200 less than the Arsenal if you think that way. And if there is a QC issue then the WASR is maybe not much cheaper than the Arsenal. Just something to think about.

I love my WASR. I got it for about $400 and it has taken deer and shot plenty of rounds without issue. Someday I'll own an Arsenal too, but that day is a long ways off.

Another point: Romanian labor is cheaper than the Americans working on Arsenals. But if you look up Arsenal, there are some cool things they do at the factory to try and make sure they are putting out good product. Which, again, they are not 100% perfect. I don't have to search hard to find serious complaints about them, but in general they are good rifles.
An Arsenal is much better than a WASR. There i said it. Wasrs have qc problems. As youll see when u shop for one. Many ads claim qc inspected. As they are known to have issues. Fixable issues. But issues. Not the same with Arsenals. The recent paint on Arsenals are a bit weak. But its paint over park. So no worries. Strip it and paint it if you like. Or just dont use break cleaner to clean the damn thing.

Wasrs are imported and modified by Century Arms International. Not a very reputable ak maker. So resale value is going to be on the Arsenal side.

Spend the extra 200 on an Arsenal 107. Or any other model. You wont regret it. Atsenals are like a range rover. Wasrs are like that old dodge truck. a lot of bumps and bruises but it always runs. Both run. But an Arsenal is in a class far above the Wasr.

I will say i build a lot of my aks with romanian parts like the wasr. The parts are good. Ita the craftsmanship that goes into the Arsenal that makes the difference. And the 107s are in stock at kvar. In just about any color youd like.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by JF89 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:05 pm

moab wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.
You nailed it with "fit and finish." At one time the QC of WASRs was spotty at best and I think that is why they gained a poor reputation. Otherwise, the metallurgy of the WASR is top notch.

BTW, even Arsenal has QC issues from time to time. Nobody is perfect.

Now, depending on the year, a WASR might have mashed rivits, canted front sight, or canted gas block. If it is newer it likely does not have those, but it will have cheap/low quality wood furniture, so plan on replacing it with better furniture. That WASR is more like $200 less than the Arsenal if you think that way. And if there is a QC issue then the WASR is maybe not much cheaper than the Arsenal. Just something to think about.

I love my WASR. I got it for about $400 and it has taken deer and shot plenty of rounds without issue. Someday I'll own an Arsenal too, but that day is a long ways off.

Another point: Romanian labor is cheaper than the Americans working on Arsenals. But if you look up Arsenal, there are some cool things they do at the factory to try and make sure they are putting out good product. Which, again, they are not 100% perfect. I don't have to search hard to find serious complaints about them, but in general they are good rifles.
An Arsenal is much better than a WASR. There i said it. Wasrs have qc problems. As youll see when u shop for one. Many ads claim qc inspected. As they are known to have issues. Fixable issues. But issues. Not the same with Arsenals. The recent paint on Arsenals are a bit weak. But its paint over park. So no worries. Strip it and paint it if you like. Or just dont use break cleaner to clean the damn thing.

Wasrs are imported and modified by Century Arms International. Not a very reputable ak maker. So resale value is going to be on the Arsenal side.

Spend the extra 200 on an Arsenal 107. Or any other model. You wont regret it. Atsenals are like a range rover. Wasrs are like that old dodge truck. a lot of bumps and bruises but it always runs. Both run. But an Arsenal is in a class far above the Wasr.

I will say i build a lot of my aks with romanian parts like the wasr. The parts are good. Ita the craftsmanship that goes into the Arsenal that makes the difference. And the 107s are in stock at kvar. In just about any color youd like.

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Im not really buying at the moment, although I have been eyeing a Arsenal 106 but im undecided if I want it or another AR15.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:12 pm

JF89 wrote:
moab wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
JF89 wrote:So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.
You nailed it with "fit and finish." At one time the QC of WASRs was spotty at best and I think that is why they gained a poor reputation. Otherwise, the metallurgy of the WASR is top notch.

BTW, even Arsenal has QC issues from time to time. Nobody is perfect.

Now, depending on the year, a WASR might have mashed rivits, canted front sight, or canted gas block. If it is newer it likely does not have those, but it will have cheap/low quality wood furniture, so plan on replacing it with better furniture. That WASR is more like $200 less than the Arsenal if you think that way. And if there is a QC issue then the WASR is maybe not much cheaper than the Arsenal. Just something to think about.

I love my WASR. I got it for about $400 and it has taken deer and shot plenty of rounds without issue. Someday I'll own an Arsenal too, but that day is a long ways off.

Another point: Romanian labor is cheaper than the Americans working on Arsenals. But if you look up Arsenal, there are some cool things they do at the factory to try and make sure they are putting out good product. Which, again, they are not 100% perfect. I don't have to search hard to find serious complaints about them, but in general they are good rifles.
An Arsenal is much better than a WASR. There i said it. Wasrs have qc problems. As youll see when u shop for one. Many ads claim qc inspected. As they are known to have issues. Fixable issues. But issues. Not the same with Arsenals. The recent paint on Arsenals are a bit weak. But its paint over park. So no worries. Strip it and paint it if you like. Or just dont use break cleaner to clean the damn thing.

Wasrs are imported and modified by Century Arms International. Not a very reputable ak maker. So resale value is going to be on the Arsenal side.

Spend the extra 200 on an Arsenal 107. Or any other model. You wont regret it. Atsenals are like a range rover. Wasrs are like that old dodge truck. a lot of bumps and bruises but it always runs. Both run. But an Arsenal is in a class far above the Wasr.

I will say i build a lot of my aks with romanian parts like the wasr. The parts are good. Ita the craftsmanship that goes into the Arsenal that makes the difference. And the 107s are in stock at kvar. In just about any color youd like.

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Im not really buying at the moment, although I have been eyeing a Arsenal 106 but im undecided if I want it or another AR15.
Read my post a few posts above. I just purchased a 106 with a fugged up bullet guide. I think it might be the best of both worlds. The AK platform with the ammo availability of an AR. Now if I could find a .22 conversion kit for it that would be the shit. The only limitation is the mags. You have only two choices. So you can't just grab one off the battlefield. Or find them laying around. You'd have to keep a good stock of them. Stored and on you. But it does take circle 10's so at least they're good mags.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by Bearcat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:39 pm

JF89 wrote:So I got to shoot a Wasr and Arsenal side by side and I could not find a difference outside of aesthetics, yet the wasr is $300 cheaper , Am I missing something? Both were similar in everyway outside of a slightly better finish and a lot better furniture on the Arsenal. From what ive read both are issued or were issued to a military and both have a huge following but a lot of people label the wasr as a beginners AK but not the Arsenal.
If you do a simple search on century arms customer service problems you will quickly find that you do not want one. I don't know that this is still their policy but let's say around 2012 or so, the one year warranty on the century arms started at time of shipment to a dealer! Meaning, if it sat on the dealer shelf new, for 6 months, you as the customer only had a 6 month warranty. I guarantee you that arsenal's warranty policy is much better than that.

Century arms quality is often referred to as "drunk monkeys welding". They are simply shit guns and I can't understand why they haven't gone under yet with such a bad reputation and so many other low grade builders have popped up and failed for similar reasons. My guess is because they have a lot of experience with importing firearms where other makers don't.

Now the pistols they sell are usually good to go because they don't have to destroy the receivers and rebuild them as kits. The caveat being imported milsurp handguns in my experience suck in reliability.

The only AK I would buy from century arms is a Romanian Draco and not a US built one. The Romanians are imported and unmolested by century arms because it's legally a pistol. I absolutely love mine, I converted it to a 16" rifle with a pinned and welded flash hider.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by woodsghost » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Frankly, I"m going to push back on the "CAI rifles are shit" idea.

Of the 4 AKs I've owned, 3 WASRs and 1 M74, 3 were perfect out of the box and 1 needed 30 minuets with a drill press and a wrench. That one with the canted sight still went 1200 rounds with 1 issue which was magazine related. Cheap mag. It shot great before I fixed the sight, it shot great after I fixed the sight.

I've handled and checked a great many more CAI rifles, AK and otherwise. Almost everything I've handled was fine, and I think it is wise to handle a gun personally before buying. Both the guns I bought off Gunbroker were great. The sellers said "straight gas block and front sight" and indeed, they were. All the rivets on all the rifles I have owned were good.

Also, I have read about plenty of issues with Arsenals. Definitive Arms was not working on Arsenal 106's for a while due to QC issues (or so says the Internet claiming personal correspondence w/ the owner). Atlantic Arms has alluded to QC issues with Arsenals and other big name on AKfiles, and that was part of their rational for picking up the IO inc line. AK Operator's Union has referenced QC issues with Arsenals on multiple occasions. So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters. For me, I"ve DIYed my way through most of the gun issues I've ever experienced. My Colt Commando revolver did not go well, but that is a common experience. All the rest have been great. YMMV, caveat emptor, and all that.

And while I like Arsenals, I just don't like them enough to pay the extra money. All my CAI AKs have been great, accurate enough (typically 3-4 moa w/ cheapest commie ammo), reliable, and robust. I really don't have a complaint and while I understand people have had issues, I simply have not seen enough problems on enough CAI guns, AK and otherwise, to turn me off of them. The issues I *have* had were very quick fixes. Mag wobble, if it bothers you, can be fixed in 5 minuets with JB Weld. The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns.

Now, where I would get upset with CAI is in the metallurgy of some of their personal line of AKs. But the Romanian guns seem to be in pretty good shape and those which need attention can be, in my case, DIYed with minimal effort and cost.

Just where I"m at.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by moab » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:31 pm

woodsghost wrote:Frankly, I"m going to push back on the "CAI rifles are shit" idea.

Of the 4 AKs I've owned, 3 WASRs and 1 M74, 3 were perfect out of the box and 1 needed 30 minuets with a drill press and a wrench. That one with the canted sight still went 1200 rounds with 1 issue which was magazine related. Cheap mag. It shot great before I fixed the sight, it shot great after I fixed the sight.

I've handled and checked a great many more CAI rifles, AK and otherwise. Almost everything I've handled was fine, and I think it is wise to handle a gun personally before buying. Both the guns I bought off Gunbroker were great. The sellers said "straight gas block and front sight" and indeed, they were. All the rivets on all the rifles I have owned were good.

Also, I have read about plenty of issues with Arsenals. Definitive Arms was not working on Arsenal 106's for a while due to QC issues (or so says the Internet claiming personal correspondence w/ the owner). Atlantic Arms has alluded to QC issues with Arsenals and other big name on AKfiles, and that was part of their rational for picking up the IO inc line. AK Operator's Union has referenced QC issues with Arsenals on multiple occasions. So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters. For me, I"ve DIYed my way through most of the gun issues I've ever experienced. My Colt Commando revolver did not go well, but that is a common experience. All the rest have been great. YMMV, caveat emptor, and all that.

And while I like Arsenals, I just don't like them enough to pay the extra money. All my CAI AKs have been great, accurate enough (typically 3-4 moa w/ cheapest commie ammo), reliable, and robust. I really don't have a complaint and while I understand people have had issues, I simply have not seen enough problems on enough CAI guns, AK and otherwise, to turn me off of them. The issues I *have* had were very quick fixes. Mag wobble, if it bothers you, can be fixed in 5 minuets with JB Weld. The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns.

Now, where I would get upset with CAI is in the metallurgy of some of their personal line of AKs. But the Romanian guns seem to be in pretty good shape and those which need attention can be, in my case, DIYed with minimal effort and cost.

Just where I"m at.
And I can't keep my mouth shut anymore about WASR's vs Arsenals either. lol. :)

"Atlantic Arms has alluded to QC issues with Arsenals and other big name on AKfiles, and that was part of their rational for picking up the IO inc line."

Woodghost I love you. But stating anything good about IO is HIGHLY suspect. IO is the maker of nothing but hand grenades. Period. Ask anyone in the AK community. As you know I own Legion Arms. An AK builder and retailer for over a decade. IO should not be in business. Do any search on IO Inc and problems and you'll see a huge amount of pics and stories. I'm not even going to go any further on IO.

"The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns. "

An Arsenal 107 goes for $899 right now on Kvar. WASR's are in the $600-$700 range now. So I don't know why you're comparing the WASR to the 108. There is literally only a $200-$300 price difference. Between the twos basic AK. WASR/Arsenal 107.

Second, if your fixing your rifle with JB Weld you shouldn't be. If I even built anything myself that required JB Weld ( or any other fix for that matter) I would tear it down and start over. Why would you buy anything that requires ANY type of repair - NEW? That's a terrible argument for buying a WASR.

Third, if you sent that rifle back to Century you'd get the same monkeys doing the repairs that build their crappy rifles in the first place. (I know the WASR is built in Romania. But CAI puts in the mods that make them sellable in the US. Magwell etc.) Whereas, Arsenal would actually fix your problem or simply replace the rifle. They are just such vastly different companies you can't compare them. Arsenal Bulgaria is a main line to some of the best AK's built in the world. Bulgarian AK's have always been top notch.

Century does do some stuff well. They import things. Wonderful milsurps. And other stuff you can't find anyplace else. But just about anything they've ever built themselves has sucked. It's common knowledge.

I'm not saying you can't find a good WASR. You most certainly can. And I know there are a lot of WASR fanboys in recent years. And I agree with Romanian metallurgy being top notch. I use their parts in most of my own builds. But really for $700 should you be having to do repairs to a NEW rifle?! Or looking out for sight cant or bad magwells? Or replacing their crappy furniture? Historically these have been - if not terrible guns - ones with such a suspect reputation that it will at the very least effect resale value. I will never understand someone that would go to such lengths - with a NEW firearm no less - to save a few hundred or even a couple hundred dollars. By repairing a new firearm. This isn't even a "buy once, cry once" argument. It's a few hundred dollars. And a Bulgarian Arsenal does not even compare to a WASR. For a couple hundred more.

Personally I think the going price for new WASR's right now is insane. I just can't see spending $700 on something that needs fixed. (Cough cough. Choke choke. Except the Arsenal 106fr I posted above. But it's an over thousand dollar rifle I got for a little over 700 bucks. And all it needs is a bullet guide. Not because of a manufacturer defect. But owner error.)

The only complaint I've read recently about Arsenals is the paint. But it's paint over park. (Another point not mentioned. WASR's aren't parked. They're painted only.) But only if you use brake cleaner on them.

If I could buy a WASR like the old days for $400. I'd be convinced to gamble on a new rifle needing repairs. But for within a few hundred of one of the top notch AK's in the world? No deal. You'll never convince me that a WASR is better than or as good as an Arsenal. And the price difference is not $600-$800. More like $200-$300.

EDIT - I wrote this last night. It was late. And I fear I came off to aggressive. I did come off to aggressive. My apologies woodsghost. :) I'll keep it lighter next time.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by JF89 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:08 pm

moab wrote:
woodsghost wrote:Frankly, I"m going to push back on the "CAI rifles are shit" idea.

Of the 4 AKs I've owned, 3 WASRs and 1 M74, 3 were perfect out of the box and 1 needed 30 minuets with a drill press and a wrench. That one with the canted sight still went 1200 rounds with 1 issue which was magazine related. Cheap mag. It shot great before I fixed the sight, it shot great after I fixed the sight.

I've handled and checked a great many more CAI rifles, AK and otherwise. Almost everything I've handled was fine, and I think it is wise to handle a gun personally before buying. Both the guns I bought off Gunbroker were great. The sellers said "straight gas block and front sight" and indeed, they were. All the rivets on all the rifles I have owned were good.

Also, I have read about plenty of issues with Arsenals. Definitive Arms was not working on Arsenal 106's for a while due to QC issues (or so says the Internet claiming personal correspondence w/ the owner). Atlantic Arms has alluded to QC issues with Arsenals and other big name on AKfiles, and that was part of their rational for picking up the IO inc line. AK Operator's Union has referenced QC issues with Arsenals on multiple occasions. So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters. For me, I"ve DIYed my way through most of the gun issues I've ever experienced. My Colt Commando revolver did not go well, but that is a common experience. All the rest have been great. YMMV, caveat emptor, and all that.

And while I like Arsenals, I just don't like them enough to pay the extra money. All my CAI AKs have been great, accurate enough (typically 3-4 moa w/ cheapest commie ammo), reliable, and robust. I really don't have a complaint and while I understand people have had issues, I simply have not seen enough problems on enough CAI guns, AK and otherwise, to turn me off of them. The issues I *have* had were very quick fixes. Mag wobble, if it bothers you, can be fixed in 5 minuets with JB Weld. The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns.

Now, where I would get upset with CAI is in the metallurgy of some of their personal line of AKs. But the Romanian guns seem to be in pretty good shape and those which need attention can be, in my case, DIYed with minimal effort and cost.

Just where I"m at.
And I can't keep my mouth shut anymore about WASR's vs Arsenals either. lol. :)

"Atlantic Arms has alluded to QC issues with Arsenals and other big name on AKfiles, and that was part of their rational for picking up the IO inc line."

Woodghost I love you. But stating anything good about IO is HIGHLY suspect. IO is the maker of nothing but hand grenades. Period. Ask anyone in the AK community. As you know I own Legion Arms. An AK builder and retailer for over a decade. IO should not be in business. Do any search on IO Inc and problems and you'll see a huge amount of pics and stories. I'm not even going to go any further on IO.

"The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns. "

An Arsenal 107 goes for $899 right now on Kvar. WASR's are in the $600-$700 range now. So I don't know why you're comparing the WASR to the 108. There is literally only a $200-$300 price difference. Between the twos basic AK. WASR/Arsenal 107.

Second, if your fixing your rifle with JB Weld you shouldn't be. If I even built anything myself that required JB Weld ( or any other fix for that matter) I would tear it down and start over. Why would you buy anything that requires ANY type of repair - NEW? That's a terrible argument for buying a WASR.

Third, if you sent that rifle back to Century you'd get the same monkeys doing the repairs that build their crappy rifles in the first place. (I know the WASR is built in Romania. But CAI puts in the mods that make them sellable in the US. Magwell etc.) Whereas, Arsenal would actually fix your problem or simply replace the rifle. They are just such vastly different companies you can't compare them. Arsenal Bulgaria is a main line to some of the best AK's built in the world. Bulgarian AK's have always been top notch.

Century does do some stuff well. They import things. Wonderful milsurps. And other stuff you can't find anyplace else. But just about anything they've ever built themselves has sucked. It's common knowledge.

I'm not saying you can't find a good WASR. You most certainly can. And I know there are a lot of WASR fanboys in recent years. And I agree with Romanian metallurgy being top notch. I use their parts in most of my own builds. But really for $700 should you be having to do repairs to a NEW rifle?! Or looking out for sight cant or bad magwells? Or replacing their crappy furniture? Historically these have been - if not terrible guns - ones with such a suspect reputation that it will at the very least effect resale value. I will never understand someone that would go to such lengths - with a NEW firearm no less - to save a few hundred or even a couple hundred dollars. By repairing a new firearm. This isn't even a "buy once, cry once" argument. It's a few hundred dollars. And a Bulgarian Arsenal does not even compare to a WASR. For a couple hundred more.

Personally I think the going price for new WASR's right now is insane. I just can't see spending $700 on something that needs fixed. (Cough cough. Choke choke. Except the Arsenal 106fr I posted above. But it's an over thousand dollar rifle I got for a little over 700 bucks. And all it needs is a bullet guide. Not because of a manufacturer defect. But owner error.)

The only complaint I've read recently about Arsenals is the paint. But it's paint over park. (Another point not mentioned. WASR's aren't parked. They're painted only.) But only if you use brake cleaner on them.

If I could buy a WASR like the old days for $400. I'd be convinced to gamble on a new rifle needing repairs. But for within a few hundred of one of the top notch AK's in the world? No deal. You'll never convince me that a WASR is better than or as good as an Arsenal. And the price difference is not $600-$800. More like $200-$300.

EDIT - I wrote this last night. It was late. And I fear I came off to aggressive. I did come off to aggressive. My apologies woodsghost. :) I'll keep it lighter next time.
Sounds like there is a ruling elitist class among the commie guns, kind of ironic. you dont see this with AR15s, well maybe a little with the Norinco guys but im not sure.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by Bearcat » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:01 pm

woodsghost wrote: So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters.
It matters because it tells the consumers that they don't stand behind their products. Ignoring this warning sign is foolish. How many companies, not limited to firearms either, have a warranty timer that starts before the product is even purchased?! The only similar warranty policy I can think of is Robinson Arms. If you google his online meltdown, he told his customers and the internet at large that if they continue to complain about very real QC issues which he took as trolling, that he would not honor any warranty repairs.
JF89 wrote: Sounds like there is a ruling elitist class among the commie guns, kind of ironic. you dont see this with AR15s, well maybe a little with the Norinco guys but im not sure.
Honestly, this is not the case, but I understand how you would see it that way. Their is a lot of elitism in the firearms community. Finding a good AK is hard to do in this country. Their have been many AK builders rise and fall with only a few constants remaining. Century is at the bottom of the spectrum and Arsenal is on the upper end, no two ways about it.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by JF89 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:48 pm

Bearcat wrote:
woodsghost wrote: So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters.
It matters because it tells the consumers that they don't stand behind their products. Ignoring this warning sign is foolish. How many companies, not limited to firearms either, have a warranty timer that starts before the product is even purchased?! The only similar warranty policy I can think of is Robinson Arms. If you google his online meltdown, he told his customers and the internet at large that if they continue to complain about very real QC issues which he took as trolling, that he would not honor any warranty repairs.
JF89 wrote: Sounds like there is a ruling elitist class among the commie guns, kind of ironic. you dont see this with AR15s, well maybe a little with the Norinco guys but im not sure.
Honestly, this is not the case, but I understand how you would see it that way. Their is a lot of elitism in the firearms community. Finding a good AK is hard to do in this country. Their have been many AK builders rise and fall with only a few constants remaining. Century is at the bottom of the spectrum and Arsenal is on the upper end, no two ways about it.
I was just being a smart ass with that last post. I couldnt tell the difference when shooting them but Century is another brand like Taurus where its 90% garbage so whats being said makes sense.

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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by woodsghost » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:34 pm

moab wrote:
Woodghost I love you. But stating anything good about IO is HIGHLY suspect. IO is the maker of nothing but hand grenades. Period. Ask anyone in the AK community. As you know I own Legion Arms. An AK builder and retailer for over a decade. IO should not be in business. Do any search on IO Inc and problems and you'll see a huge amount of pics and stories. I'm not even going to go any further on IO.
I do NOT want anyone to think I"m endorsing IO Inc. I was shocked Atlantic was selling their rifles. I was stunned when I read their stuff on AKfiles. But it is not my business. I'm just pointing out some of what they said about Arsenal and other high end QC. That is all.

moab wrote: "The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns. "

An Arsenal 107 goes for $899 right now on Kvar. WASR's are in the $600-$700 range now. So I don't know why you're comparing the WASR to the 108. There is literally only a $200-$300 price difference. Between the twos basic AK. WASR/Arsenal 107.
Alas, time moves on. And I was looking at the 108 because I could not find a price on a 107. It was late. I was irrational and had spent too much time writing. What I was seeing was $1000-$1200 for Arsenals.
moab wrote: Second, if your fixing your rifle with JB Weld you shouldn't be. If I even built anything myself that required JB Weld ( or any other fix for that matter) I would tear it down and start over. Why would you buy anything that requires ANY type of repair - NEW? That's a terrible argument for buying a WASR.
Don't be knocking my JB Weld brah! Seriously, I get that WASRs just put those plates in place. It is just not much of a issue for me.
moab wrote: Third, if you sent that rifle back to Century you'd get the same monkeys doing the repairs that build their crappy rifles in the first place. (I know the WASR is built in Romania. But CAI puts in the mods that make them sellable in the US. Magwell etc.) Whereas, Arsenal would actually fix your problem or simply replace the rifle. They are just such vastly different companies you can't compare them. Arsenal Bulgaria is a main line to some of the best AK's built in the world. Bulgarian AK's have always been top notch.
Right with you.
moab wrote: The only complaint I've read recently about Arsenals is the paint. But it's paint over park. (Another point not mentioned. WASR's aren't parked. They're painted only.) But only if you use brake cleaner on them.
Only one CAI AK I"ve owned was painted, and it was the newest WASR. Everything else was parked, which I love.
moab wrote: EDIT - I wrote this last night. It was late. And I fear I came off to aggressive. I did come off to aggressive. My apologies woodsghost. :) I'll keep it lighter next time.
Thanks! But no need to feel it was aggressive. I wrote in the same tone, and also late at night. I respect and appreciate what you said.
Bearcat wrote:
woodsghost wrote: So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters.
It matters because it tells the consumers that they don't stand behind their products. Ignoring this warning sign is foolish. How many companies, not limited to firearms either, have a warranty timer that starts before the product is even purchased?! The only similar warranty policy I can think of is Robinson Arms. If you google his online meltdown, he told his customers and the internet at large that if they continue to complain about very real QC issues which he took as trolling, that he would not honor any warranty repairs.
That is fair. And a good point.
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Re: The All Purpose AK Thread

Post by JF89 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:56 pm

woodsghost wrote:
moab wrote:
Woodghost I love you. But stating anything good about IO is HIGHLY suspect. IO is the maker of nothing but hand grenades. Period. Ask anyone in the AK community. As you know I own Legion Arms. An AK builder and retailer for over a decade. IO should not be in business. Do any search on IO Inc and problems and you'll see a huge amount of pics and stories. I'm not even going to go any further on IO.
I do NOT want anyone to think I"m endorsing IO Inc. I was shocked Atlantic was selling their rifles. I was stunned when I read their stuff on AKfiles. But it is not my business. I'm just pointing out some of what they said about Arsenal and other high end QC. That is all.

moab wrote: "The $600-$800 difference in price between what I paid for any of my WASRs and an Arsenal SLR-108 is not enough to make me feel frustrated with my 5 minuets of JB Welding. Or my 30 minuets with a drill press and wrench. I spent more time writing this post than I spent fixing my guns. "

An Arsenal 107 goes for $899 right now on Kvar. WASR's are in the $600-$700 range now. So I don't know why you're comparing the WASR to the 108. There is literally only a $200-$300 price difference. Between the twos basic AK. WASR/Arsenal 107.
Alas, time moves on. And I was looking at the 108 because I could not find a price on a 107. It was late. I was irrational and had spent too much time writing. What I was seeing was $1000-$1200 for Arsenals.
moab wrote: Second, if your fixing your rifle with JB Weld you shouldn't be. If I even built anything myself that required JB Weld ( or any other fix for that matter) I would tear it down and start over. Why would you buy anything that requires ANY type of repair - NEW? That's a terrible argument for buying a WASR.
Don't be knocking my JB Weld brah! Seriously, I get that WASRs just put those plates in place. It is just not much of a issue for me.
moab wrote: Third, if you sent that rifle back to Century you'd get the same monkeys doing the repairs that build their crappy rifles in the first place. (I know the WASR is built in Romania. But CAI puts in the mods that make them sellable in the US. Magwell etc.) Whereas, Arsenal would actually fix your problem or simply replace the rifle. They are just such vastly different companies you can't compare them. Arsenal Bulgaria is a main line to some of the best AK's built in the world. Bulgarian AK's have always been top notch.
Right with you.
moab wrote: The only complaint I've read recently about Arsenals is the paint. But it's paint over park. (Another point not mentioned. WASR's aren't parked. They're painted only.) But only if you use brake cleaner on them.
Only one CAI AK I"ve owned was painted, and it was the newest WASR. Everything else was parked, which I love.
moab wrote: EDIT - I wrote this last night. It was late. And I fear I came off to aggressive. I did come off to aggressive. My apologies woodsghost. :) I'll keep it lighter next time.
Thanks! But no need to feel it was aggressive. I wrote in the same tone, and also late at night. I respect and appreciate what you said.
Bearcat wrote:
woodsghost wrote: So I hear people say "CAI sucks and Arsenal rules." Well, in the warranty dept, yes, I believe this is correct. And for some that quality service really matters.
It matters because it tells the consumers that they don't stand behind their products. Ignoring this warning sign is foolish. How many companies, not limited to firearms either, have a warranty timer that starts before the product is even purchased?! The only similar warranty policy I can think of is Robinson Arms. If you google his online meltdown, he told his customers and the internet at large that if they continue to complain about very real QC issues which he took as trolling, that he would not honor any warranty repairs.
That is fair. And a good point.
My buddy showed me a video of a suppossed homemade AK blowing up, he said they were trying to see how hot they could get the barrel and it blew up after a shit ton of ammo, this was somewhere over in the middle east.. From the sounds of it those AKs were worse then anything over here yet still managed to fire.

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