Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Browning 35 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:04 pm

parabarbarian wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
quackfiend wrote:I'm in love...
Yeah....they're pretty kickass, talk about a piece of history.
Theodore Roosevelt thought very highly of the Model 1895 and personally bought several in "30 Army" (30-40 Krag) to equip fellow officers in the Rough Riders. The Russian army bought about 300 thousand in 7.62x54R to supplement the Mosin-Nagant bolt actions in Word War One. The one pictured above is probably one of those. The rifle was also popular with law enforcement up into the 1930's. Texas Rangers, Pinkerton Agents and the U.S. Border Patrol all used it. The only one I ever shot was a 30-06 my father owned. He picked it up sometime in the early 1960's when it was just old hunting rifle instead of a collector's item.

Winchester started making the Model 1895 again in 2001 as a commemorative and/or limited edition thing. It's available in 30-40 Krag, 30-06 and 405 Win.
Yeah, I knew that they were real popular for the time period.

In reading about what rifles were common in that era for LEO's it's one of the ones that pop up from time to time.

They weren't anywhere near as common as Remington Model 8's (semi-auto rifle like the one Deputy Prentiss Oakley used in the ambush on Bonnie and Clyde Barrow), Winchester 94's, Enfield 1917's, Springfield 1903's, British .303 Enfields and Mausers in 7mm and 8mm, but they were still around quite a bit and some LEO's really seemed to like them back then.

That's awesome that you got to actually shoot one, I've only ever seen and drooled on them at gun shows and at Jackson Armory (*Click*) in Dallas. 1895's are just a little too rich for my blood, so as far as lever action rifles go I'll probably stick to regular old Winchesters and Marlins in 30-30 and .44 Mag. I've heard good things about some of the new L.A. rifles out there (Big Horn Armory, Puma and Rossi), but I'd rather stick with the original manufacturers.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by phalanx » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:18 pm

parabarbarian wrote:
phalanx wrote:
parabarbarian wrote: The Browning BLR lever action has a detachable box magazine. It's not cheap but it's a hell of a good rifle. Looks like Browning is making it in 223 again.
<snip>
I've had my eye on that rifle for a long time. The detachable magazine solves the problem of having to buy special ammo, and a .308 lever gun would require no extra calibers to stock up on. The big problem with the BLR is the magazines are limited to 4 rounds, no doubt this is due to hunting laws in most states*, and the cost of 'em. They're sixty bucks each on a good day!
<snip>
I don't know who is making the magazines now but they are not considered a consumable like a war rifle magazine is -- or should be -- and they are damned sturdy. Unless lost or run over by a tank, the magazines will likely as not outlast the rifle. A hunter only needs to carry at most one or two extras anyway and after paying $800 for a rifle and $300 for a decent scope an extra $120 for a couple of spare magazines is not a big deal.
That's a good point, but they're still crazy expensive with a low round count. I still want one, but I just wish somebody made one with a higher capacity.
thorian wrote:
phalanx wrote:
parabarbarian wrote: The Browning BLR lever action has a detachable box magazine. It's not cheap but it's a hell of a good rifle. Looks like Browning is making it in 223 again.
<snip>
I've had my eye on that rifle for a long time. The detachable magazine solves the problem of having to buy special ammo, and a .308 lever gun would require no extra calibers to stock up on. The big problem with the BLR is the magazines are limited to 4 rounds, no doubt this is due to hunting laws in most states*, and the cost of 'em. They're sixty bucks each on a good day!

*Apparently Louisiana is just cooler than the rest of us :cry:
Umm a .308 levergun would require stocking up in an extra caliber as one would have to get the .308 hornady levevolution to prevent the spitzer point from turning the magazine tube into a pipebomb when all the .308 detonates in the mag tube from recoil.
As has been noted, I covered that base.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Jeriah » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:22 pm

JamesCannon wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:
JamesCannon wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:The Remy pump 308 blows my skirt up but is limited to a 4 rd mag. We need a disappointed smiley.
Putting a higher cap mag in a pump gun is like putting a putting a scope on a trap and skeet gun.... you're doin' it wrong.

If you need more than 4-5 rounds (ie, it's not for hunting) then why are you getting a pump gun? That's impractical, get an auto. That's why they don't make higher cap mags for larger power sporting rifles...
I've been known to frequent areas with iffy gun laws, just trying to keep it legal. AFAIK there are no laws banning pumps and I like to have a gun that can do hunting duties and defensive duty, just my thing. Now, I just bring my Marlin Guide Gun. Problem has been long solved. :)
Shit, yea, I forget about that gun law stuff sometimes... I'm in Louisiana, a pretty unrestricted state. Sometimes I don't realize people's motivation for some guns, because I think of a practical use, and not a law loophole.
Speaking of legal stuff: if you got a manual-repeating AR, like say a pump-action AR, and then put a bullet button on it, you could legally insert a high-capacity magazine (whether a standard-capacity 20- or 30-round magazine, or a higher capacity mag like a Beta C-MAG) and then bring the whole thing into CA, since the magazine isn't detachable but is rather part of the gun...right? Although it would be unlawful to eject the magazine, because then you'd have a high-cap magazine brought into the state after the ban. But if you leave it in the gun, it's not a detachable magazine, it's a fixed part of the gun...right?
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Seven_Sicks_Two » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:35 pm

Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Jeriah » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:39 pm

Seven_Sicks_Two wrote:Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
Here's my point: would it be lawful to have a lever-action rifle with a fixed, tubular magazine that holds 11 rounds?

Because legally, I can't see how that's different from a pump-action AR with a CMAG and a bullet button.

They're fixed magazines on manual repeating firearm. How is that not legal?
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Seven_Sicks_Two » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:23 am

I'm not 100% sure (and I'm on my phone so checking would be a pain in the ass) but I'm fairly certain that the 10rd exemption only applies to tubular mags. I could very easily be wrong though... I'm not a lawyer.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:38 am

Jeriah wrote:
Seven_Sicks_Two wrote:Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
Here's my point: would it be lawful to have a lever-action rifle with a fixed, tubular magazine that holds 11 rounds?

Because legally, I can't see how that's different from a pump-action AR with a CMAG and a bullet button.

They're fixed magazines on manual repeating firearm. How is that not legal?
I think it mostly boils down to politics, not to any practical, realistic reason.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:44 am

evil monkey wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
Seven_Sicks_Two wrote:Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
Here's my point: would it be lawful to have a lever-action rifle with a fixed, tubular magazine that holds 11 rounds?

Because legally, I can't see how that's different from a pump-action AR with a CMAG and a bullet button.

They're fixed magazines on manual repeating firearm. How is that not legal?
I think it mostly boils down to politics, not to any practical, realistic reason.
Yeah, don't count on any sort of reasonable logic from politicians and bureaucrats. You just have to comply.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by parabarbarian » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:15 am

Jeriah wrote:
Seven_Sicks_Two wrote:Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
Here's my point: would it be lawful to have a lever-action rifle with a fixed, tubular magazine that holds 11 rounds?

Because legally, I can't see how that's different from a pump-action AR with a CMAG and a bullet button.

They're fixed magazines on manual repeating firearm. How is that not legal?
Dunno about where you are but in California Law (courtesty of the Calguns Wiki)
12020 (a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.
Lever action tubular magazines are specifically excluded. I think your argument about a pump versus lever action is part of a lawsuit being filed against the State. The Calguns lawyers are being very agressive about getting as many early wins as possible.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Jeriah » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:41 am

Thanks for that informative citation that actually brings this back to leverguns.

For right now at least, that exemption is another argument in favor of their use...not that there are many >10 capacity lever guns in "real gun" calibers out there...maybe a long .38 would be over 10?

My dad's .30-30 holds six I think, they're longer than .38, so I figure a .38 levergun would hold 8-10 rounds. No?
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by TheDrifter » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:06 pm

Jeriah wrote:Thanks for that informative citation that actually brings this back to leverguns.

For right now at least, that exemption is another argument in favor of their use...not that there are many >10 capacity lever guns in "real gun" calibers out there...maybe a long .38 would be over 10?

My dad's .30-30 holds six I think, they're longer than .38, so I figure a .38 levergun would hold 8-10 rounds. No?
A Marlin 1894C holds 9 rounds of .357 Magnum. It has an 18.5" barrel, so it isn't obscenely long to get the capacity or anything. The 1894 holds 10 rounds of .44 Magnum and it's only 1.5" longer and a half pound heavier.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Jeriah » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm

TheDrifter wrote:
Jeriah wrote:Thanks for that informative citation that actually brings this back to leverguns.

For right now at least, that exemption is another argument in favor of their use...not that there are many >10 capacity lever guns in "real gun" calibers out there...maybe a long .38 would be over 10?

My dad's .30-30 holds six I think, they're longer than .38, so I figure a .38 levergun would hold 8-10 rounds. No?
A Marlin 1894C holds 9 rounds of .357 Magnum. It has an 18.5" barrel, so it isn't obscenely long to get the capacity or anything. The 1894 holds 10 rounds of .44 Magnum and it's only 1.5" longer and a half pound heavier.
So what are these hi-cap leverguns the exemption allows?
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Wrangler » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:21 pm

Model 92 with a 24" barrel holds 12 + 1. Does that qualify as high cap?

Eta that is in the 357 mag version.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:32 pm

AFAIK, there are no laws on capacity of leverguns due to them being manually operated. I maybe wrong.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by parabarbarian » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:50 pm

Jeriah wrote:Thanks for that informative citation that actually brings this back to leverguns.

For right now at least, that exemption is another argument in favor of their use...not that there are many >10 capacity lever guns in "real gun" calibers out there...maybe a long .38 would be over 10?

My dad's .30-30 holds six I think, they're longer than .38, so I figure a .38 levergun would hold 8-10 rounds. No?
The Evan's Model 1870 held 34 rounds of a short 44 caliber cartridge called, eponymously, the 44 Evans. It used a rotary magazine in the buttstock. A similar arrangement might hold 20 to 22 of the longer 357 or 44 magnum cartridges. Nothing like that is made today but it shows what can be done if you are sufficiently clever and don't have a government boot on your neck.

In modern leverguns the capacities are more modest. For example, the Marlin 1894 holds 10+1 .44 magnum. The 1.5" shorter model 1894C holds 9+1 .357 magnum. The 18954C will usually hold 10 38 spl but make sure the OAL is between 1.400" and 1.590". Some guns can handle a cartridges outside those limits but don't count on it -- it can cause a nasty jam.

Just for the heck of it I fired up my ballistic software and ran the numbers for a couple of common loads

http://www.heronforge.net/357.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've used the 158 gr JSP/JHP in my Marlin for at least five years and the results correspond to my experience. I haven't tried the 140 gr FTX yet so I just used published data.

Before some has a cow, let me add this. Any modern lever action carbine will function for self defense. There are no obsolete weapons, only obsolete tactics. However, that is not why I would recommend that every survivalist own at least one rifle chambered in a long, straight sided, low to medium pressure cartridge. If you believe your lot in the PAW will be to face down packs of faith based fruitcakes, pissed of gang bangers, hungry cannibals, mercenary kidnappers, third world style home invasions or some similar groups then you are better off with a rifle optimized for that kind of situation.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by parabarbarian » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:14 pm

phalanx wrote:hat's a good point, but they're still crazy expensive with a low round count. I still want one, but I just wish somebody made one with a higher capacity.
Once upon a time there was a guy in Australia, I think, who made eight (ten?) round magazines for the BLR. They were popular with ranchers which used a BLR to shoot kangaroos with. I don't remember the details but they were custom jobs and pretty expensive. I doubt they are still available.

I saw a steel action Model '81 BLR with an eight round magazine at a gun show several years ago. It was a customized rifle the smith had on display. It was a really beautiful piece of work. The magazine hung below the action about 1 1/2" or 2" but didn't ruin the balance or looks at all.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by charlie505 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:32 pm

Jeriah wrote:
Seven_Sicks_Two wrote:Sadly Jeriah, that's not the way it works. The only way that you can have standard capacity (assembled) mags in CA is to have owned them before the ban.
Here's my point: would it be lawful to have a lever-action rifle with a fixed, tubular magazine that holds 11 rounds?

Because legally, I can't see how that's different from a pump-action AR with a CMAG and a bullet button.

They're fixed magazines on manual repeating firearm. How is that not legal?
LOL
Don't come to NYC - they tried to include Pump, bolt and lever action to 5 rnd capacity - no notice to anyone - just as kick in the ***** when you went to regester it. The Garand is illegal here.

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Nailz » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:44 pm

velojym wrote:I'd like to tinker with some .30 carbine HPs in my .30-30, just to see how it does.

If I can find a load that works well to 50 yards or so, and worked flawlessly over the course of a couple hundred rounds, it might be a good download for HD in my levergun.
or... I could google it first.
Check the Hornady Leverlution Ammo. It has their soft red-tipped HP's in their and hit harder than that @sshole bully in the 5th grade that was held back 3 years lol.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:51 pm

Nailz wrote:
velojym wrote:I'd like to tinker with some .30 carbine HPs in my .30-30, just to see how it does.

If I can find a load that works well to 50 yards or so, and worked flawlessly over the course of a couple hundred rounds, it might be a good download for HD in my levergun.
or... I could google it first.
Check the Hornady Leverlution Ammo. It has their soft red-tipped HP's in their and hit harder than that @sshole bully in the 5th grade that was held back 3 years lol.

I have a couple boxes of LR, which I'm gonna try next time I'm at the range. The .30 HP load I want to try will probably be a low-recoil HD round, as opposed to a Bambi-blaster. Thumper, on the other hand... better keep his eyes open. ;)
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by UrbanConquest » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:47 pm

.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Mr. Bob » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:24 pm

UrbanConquest wrote:.500S&W Lever action anyone?
http://www.predatortactical.com/PT-500/PT-500-p36.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That looks to be a pump rifle (still cool!).

Here's a (beautiful!) lever .500-
http://www.gunblast.com/Bighorn89.htm

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by SeerSavant » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:37 pm

I don't know if anyone addressed this, but a single action and lever action combo may be outdated, but if anyone has ever watched a match from the single action shooting society, they might rethink that you can't throw rounds downrange pretty damn fast.

If anything, it proves that you can move lead as fast as many semi autos, the only drawback being capacity.

Lever actions are also very accurate (good ones are) and best of all, the opinion that they are too old of a design to be as effective probably has kept them under the radar of the ban lists for now.

For me, a cowboy set up has some distinct appeal, both in places where your highly restricted, and from a purely aesthetic point of view... They are just too damn pretty.

Add to that, in a SHTF scenario that lasts longer than a few months, you do have the option of being able to reload by hand, with very simple kits, and you can run same rounds in each. That alone is a definate plus to me...

Did I mention that they are pretty damn cool?

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Mr. Bob » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:46 pm

SeerSavant wrote:you can run same rounds in each.
Especially if you have a .30-30 revolver. :twisted:

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Nailz » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:09 am

We all understand that the .223 will be cheaper than the 30-30. Much like the difference between the .38 and the .45 Perhaps its because the .38, while you can afford to buy more...you may need more because it can't come close to the stopping power of the .45acp. It can be argued that the .223 would have a similar deficit in stopping power to the 30-30 or above that you find in lever-actions. We understand that the AR is a great rifle for tactical applications and the lever-action may not be the first choice, but could you also say the same about the .223 with hunting? The 30-30 is a great hunting round because it drops what it hits while the .223 is puny against large game. Can you hunt with it? Of course you can with training and practice but it's not your first choice.

So, the lever-action may not be first, but it is more than capable of protecting you and your loved ones should the need arise. Do you have bu coup rounds to do it with? No, but do you have a tool to feck some dope up? Oh yeah.
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