Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Stercutus » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:38 pm

The Afghans did not start using IED heavily until after the surge.
Does 1 hit out of say, 4 mags make you a rifle man? Not in my book.
It would put you well ahead of the average rounds expended per enemy KIA in combat, that much is for certain.

While the Afghan stuff is interesting I have yet to see a single one with a lever action rifle.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by cityscout » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:48 pm

Blacksmith wrote: While the Afghan stuff is interesting I have yet to see a single one with a lever action rifle.
Sorry my fault. I didn't think it was going to turn into a huge debate.

I do like the idea that you could have a system where your carbine and your revolver take the same ammo. I also have a neighbor that casts his own .357 rounds from scrap. Might not be bad to be able to really make your own rounds. He saves a lot of money this way.

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by fixinto » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:44 pm

I am actually looking at a 357 lever as my next rifle purchase since I like the pistol rifle ammo combo idea and I dont want to buy a pistol in my current lever caliber (45-70). As far as the .357 goes with the right loads you can take elk at 100 yards due to the increased velocity you can run a 170 grain bullet (cast) at 1700+ fps with proper shot placement you can fill the freezer or persuade an intruder to give up that nasty breathing habit :mrgreen:

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:44 pm

Blacksmith wrote:The Afghans did not start using IED heavily until after the surge.
Does 1 hit out of say, 4 mags make you a rifle man? Not in my book.
It would put you well ahead of the average rounds expended per enemy KIA in combat, that much is for certain.

While the Afghan stuff is interesting I have yet to see a single one with a lever action rifle.
Probably an availability thing, for one... and the levergun doesn't really lend itself to spray-n-pray. It's the guy who only owns one and
knows how to get lead on target who would be best served by one.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by 11b20 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:04 pm

i would love to see a lever gun in .500 smith and wesson with at least 10 shot capacity that would be bad ass. lol id trade an AR for one.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Mr. Bob » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:32 pm

Not 10, but I still want one!
http://www.gunblast.com/Bighorn89.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bighornarmory.com/products/carbine.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Bearcat » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:40 pm

Mr. Bob wrote:Not 10, but I still want one!
http://www.gunblast.com/Bighorn89.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bighornarmory.com/products/carbine.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Hachiman » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:53 pm

Nice write up Trebor

I think all the derailers need to stop whacking in the trailer with their EBRs and come out for air once in awhile. The firearm section is starting to kind of suck!!
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Nailz » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:49 pm

Damn, so until I buy my AK, my 30-30 has made me uncool and not able to defend myself...woe is me. :mrgreen: Maybe I run the risk of someone wearing a poncho and smoking a cigarro breaking in to steal my horse.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by maldon007 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:07 pm

I kinda see a lever gun guy as a guy out there hunting all the time. I kinda see a m4 guy (not counting military/leo) as a guy at the range all the time... Not true in all cases of course, but I wouldnt want to be an m4 guy, with 100 hours of range practice/training, trading rounds with a lever gun guy, who has 100 hours of hunting/stalking. But maybe thats just me.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by UrbanConquest » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:35 pm

I
Last edited by UrbanConquest on Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by parabarbarian » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:18 am

fixinto wrote:I am actually looking at a 357 lever as my next rifle purchase since I like the pistol rifle ammo combo idea and I dont want to buy a pistol in my current lever caliber (45-70). As far as the .357 goes with the right loads you can take elk at 100 yards due to the increased velocity you can run a 170 grain bullet (cast) at 1700+ fps with proper shot placement you can fill the freezer or persuade an intruder to give up that nasty breathing habit :mrgreen:
I have a Marlin 1894C that I think is a good all around carbine. I have shot deer and wild pig (kind of scary that) and with 158 gr HP ammo it would ruin a goblin's day. I haven't tried the Hornady 140 gr FTX yet but I have a box to test an my next day at the rifle range.

Of course the cool kids don't invite me to their parties :cry:

One thing I've found useful is that the Marlin can shoot and cycle subsonic 357 or 38 loads. I've used 156 gr SWC loaded down to about 800 fps and, while not a cat sneeze load, they are very quiet and will feed reliably. I used them a couple of time on a pig hunt to bag rabbits. I just slipped one of the light loads into to the loading gate, cycled the action and Roger became fried rabbit.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Vicarious_Lee » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:59 am

UrbanConquest wrote:I kinda wonder who this army is that is going to be attacking some of you so that you need all this firepower.
If we are talking zeds,why waste ammo that could feed you? Run away! You can't possibly shoot them all in a serious outbreak, save the ammo for when you really need it, there won't be anymore for a long time.
In a SHTF situation again... run away! Keep a low profile. Suppressive fire is great if you have an army backing you up, otherwise it's back to hunting ethics, don't take the shot unless you know it's going to be a hit and don't shoot unless you have to. No need for rapid fire, you can't miss fast enough to win, save that ammo.
I wonder how many here have actually had a man in their sights and their finger on the trigger.
Lever gun is fine with me.
Sorry for the long post. Long Post got Long:

Granted, but we're all looking for the best tool for the job here, and that job is a firefight (most of the time, whenever a question is asked or a thread is started here). Now, will we ever be in a true, high-speed, high-volume, close-to-intermediate range gun battle with rifles requiring teamwork, mag changes, and tactical maneuvers? No, that's VERY unlikely, and thank God for it. *waves American flag*

But.....we're preppers. Hurricanes don't hit me with any significant disruptive force more than once every few years, either. I still prep for them, and I prep for worse things that have never happened and that likely (and hopefully) will never happen.

If the questions are something like this:

1. Is a lever action the rifle of choice to take to a MilCopp or similar class to learn real gunfighting skills with?

2. Is a lever action the best gun for home and neighborhood protection against two-legged and armed assailants?

3. Is a lever action the best for armed military combat?

4. Is a lever action the best gun that you could possibly legally prep with for now when SHTF or the Apocalypse comes?

then the answer is always "No".

But that shit doesn't happen on most days. In fact, some of that stuff has never happened to us, and will with an almost certainty never happen to us.

Now, let's ask some other questions that I think might land in the realm of either "possible" or even "probable":

1. Could a lever gun with which I am capable of fighting with and using ever be acceptable for home defense under most reasonable circumstances?

2. Would a lever gun, when introduced into a court of law after a defensive shooting that became a personal nightmare for whatever reason, be less likely to engender fear and paranoia among those jurors deciding my fate?

3. Can a lever gun, with proper and adequate training, be wielded effectively against one or a few assailants to eliminate the most common and/or likely threats that I might face inside my home or on my property in this country?

4. I already own a lever gun, and am proficient and practiced with it, and I just don't have the money to invest in the best combat rifle platform. Maybe I never will. Will I be okay if I use my lever that I love and can run to the best of its abilities if something bad happens?

5. Are lever guns just dead fucking sexy and awesomesauce?

then the answers to those questions (IMHO) are "yes, it sure can".

So, let's all step back and put this thread in the proper context, and that context is comprehensive prepping, and it includes all of the (legitimate) subforums outside of Firearms to a varying degree. No one outside of the worlds billionaires can prep for absolutely everything with all the best of everything. In fact, most of us struggle to try and plan for a retirement in a world in which everything won't go tits up on us, and we'll always have cops and electricity mostly at our beck and call. How obscenely fortunate we are for that!

Let's ask some more questions, under the assumption that one already has a lever gun in a suitable caliber and is (or can become) proficient in its use in a home-defense role:

1. Should I get a modern military semiautomatic, a reliable optic, and a chest rig instead of health insurance?

2. Instead of saving for retirement?

3. Instead of food and water preps?

4. Instead of medicine preps?

5. Instead of a reliable vehicle that does not break down and cost more than its worth?

6. Instead of securing education or training that would provide adequate income-earning potential that I do not currently have?

7. Instead of going into greater debt to purchase #1 right now?

That's where I'm going with this.



So, Trebor tried to answer the question "Is a lever gun that I am proficient with and that is of a suitable self-defense caliber adequate for the vast majority of self-defense situations that I might encounter?"

That answer is (again, IMHO) "Yes". The same cannot be said of rimfires, bolt-actions, .25 ACP pocket pistols, unreliable firearms, and single-shot guns.

So thanks, Trebor.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Sworbeyegib » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:30 am

Nailed it, hard.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by jor-el » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:31 am

UrbanConquest wrote:I kinda wonder who this army is that is going to be attacking some of you so that you need all this firepower.
If we are talking zeds,why waste ammo that could feed you? Run away! You can't possibly shoot them all in a serious outbreak, save the ammo for when you really need it, there won't be anymore for a long time.
In a SHTF situation again... run away! Keep a low profile. Suppressive fire is great if you have an army backing you up, otherwise it's back to hunting ethics, don't take the shot unless you know it's going to be a hit and don't shoot unless you have to. No need for rapid fire, you can't miss fast enough to win, save that ammo.
I wonder how many here have actually had a man in their sights and their finger on the trigger.
Lever gun is fine with me.
The scenario on everyone's mind around here is "Mumbai in NY". No doubt you may have heard or seen fluff pieces on NYC's defenses. Having once been in one of the units involved with preparing those defenses, I'm not impressed.
In all of the classes I held or attended, no one ever broached the idea of using personal hunting rifles as a viable means of supplementing the patrol officer's equipment. It is amusing to see the AR(piston/DI debate under separate heading)/AK/Mini-14 debate among patrol cops.

If I had my druthers, I'd push for commonality and have everybody go with ARs. A long standing tactical issue I've had was with the department going with three different service pistols. Thank god the majority of police shootouts have been short, brutal affairs but with almost no sector team going out on patrol with the same guns, sooner or later you're going to have a scenario where one partner blows his load of ammo and cannot be resupplied because his partner has different mags.

Just because they're not legal for you guys down under doesn't mean I have to plan based on your lack.

I don't shoot to miss. Popping out of cover to take quick aimed shots on recognized targets is not suppressive fire. Nobody has the kind of money to burn thousands of rounds to no effect.
OTOH, even though the city would pay for an Inspector's funeral if I were killed defeating a Mumbai style attack, Mrs. El and the kids would never forgive me for getting killed. If I made a run for it, the city would never forgive me, and I would never forgive myself for allowing defenseless people to die because I was too cheap to purchase the heavy weapons and ammo I needed to overcome and defeat a terrorist attack.
A lever gun is a range toy or a hunting toy at best. Grown men need tools and supplies to fight, win, and go home to their families.

I and other officers drew down on some dreck holding a knife on a kid last Thursday, maybe the eighth or ninth time this year. How are things by you, UrbanConquest?
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by UrbanConquest » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:31 am

No I know nothing about NYC defences, just as you know nothing about Brisbanes.
Obviously you are a LEO of some sort jor-el
I ,and I'd guess 90% of others on here aren't. In a SHTF situation I won't be running toward the trouble, I'll be running away from it. Even if I could have an AR or an AK as a citizen I have no use for it, I owned guns back when we could have semi-autos (owned firearms for over 30yrs) and was never tempted to buy one because I had no use for it. If I turned up on a shoot out on your beat would you say "Hey buddy lend a hand?" No. If I just started "helping" what would happen? Same in a SHTF situation. As a citizen I don't need the gear a soldier or a LEO needs ,my job is to get the hell away from the S hitting F not confront it.And for that, my "toy" will do just fine.
I also find it disturbing that you could call any firearm a "toy" does that mean when a 357 projectile hits me I can laugh it off?
oh, and yes I have drawn on a knife wielding perp when I did security, VERY happy to say "no shots fired." Also at 50 I consider myself a "grown man"

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by JTNieman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:36 am

Surplus 5.45x39 is about 12cents a round.

30-06, 308, 30-30, 45-70... common lever action rounds... they're up in the $1-$2 range, $0.75/rnd at best for target rounds.

So maybe I -do- have the money to waste shooting and missing occasionally, considering that I can fire like 10 shots from my AK74 for every 1 shot of any of my family lever guns, not counting the .22lr.

So you can take away the affordability aspect.

The rest is debatable.

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:26 am

A toy. Hmm.

I don't think so, either. Even a muzzleloader is a great tool, in skilled hands. No, it won't work well for zombie hordes (or the less life-inhibited), for the same reason a screwdriver doesn't do well driving nails.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by Jeriah » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:35 am

JamesCannon wrote:Surplus 5.45x39 is about 12cents a round.

30-06, 308, 30-30, 45-70... common lever action rounds... they're up in the $1-$2 range, $0.75/rnd at best for target rounds.

So maybe I -do- have the money to waste shooting and missing occasionally, considering that I can fire like 10 shots from my AK74 for every 1 shot of any of my family lever guns, not counting the .22lr.

So you can take away the affordability aspect.

The rest is debatable.
On top of which, an SKS at $250 is cheaper than most lever guns I've seen. Used .30-30s were starting at $300 in the late 1990s in San Diego (last time/place I checked), and that's when a Russian SKS was $200. On top of which there's the ammo cost issue. So long story short, price is, as James Cannon said, not the heart of the issue here. You can get an SKS for less than a levergun, and it's a semi-auto that you can feed with 10-round stripper clips.

However, you might already own a lever gun, or live somewhere (like Chicago) that semi-autos are prohibited, or you might want one for hunting or cowboy action shooting. And in any of these circumstances, it could do double duty as a defensive arm. I believe it is for people in these circumstances that Trebor's article was intended.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by JTNieman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:43 am

velojym wrote: I don't think so, either. Even a muzzleloader is a great tool, in skilled hands.
uh

no, no it is not. I don't give a crap if you're the world record holder at reloading your muzzleloading musket. It's still a shit tool for self defense when stacked against modern tech.

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:50 am

JamesCannon wrote:
velojym wrote: I don't think so, either. Even a muzzleloader is a great tool, in skilled hands.
uh

no, no it is not. I don't give a crap if you're the world record holder at reloading your muzzleloading musket. It's still a shit tool for self defense when stacked against modern tech.
read my post again, please. I said even a muzzleloader is NOT A TOY. If you disagree with that, please never come to our shooting range. It IS A TOOL, and a damned fine one, for what it is. Again, as I made clear in my last post IT IS NOT A MODERN COMBAT WEAPON!

When you're in the woods, filling the stew pot, it works pretty well.
Last edited by velojym on Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by JTNieman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:51 am

You said it's a great tool in skilled hands. What else is there to read?

Here's one quick way to trump a guy with a muzzleloader. More than one bad guy.

OH SHI-

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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by velojym » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:54 am

So, you're saying it isn't a tool unless it's useful for killing large numbers of people?

I'm done with this. I think you're being a deliberate troll here.
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Re: Tips on using the lever action rifle for self defense

Post by JTNieman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:59 am

velojym wrote:So, you're saying it isn't a tool unless it's useful for killing large numbers of people?

I'm done with this. I think you're being a deliberate troll here.
We're talking about it being used for self defense. That specific context.

In this case, yes, capacity is a -very large- factor in the aptitude of the tool. Therefore having the worst possible capacity (single shot) and worst possible reload times (muzzle loader) it is therefore logically -not- a -great- tool in -this- context.

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