2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

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2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 pm

I don't plan on getting one for a while, but I really want a bigger semi-auto for hunting or blasting one day. And I like to keep up as the market is constantly changing.

Any experience, preferences, suggestions??

The list I'm aware of off the top of my head:

1. AR10 in various flavors (any good ones?)
2. G3 clones: zenith, PTR, Century, CETME?
3. The new Tavor 7
4. KelTec bullpup thing
5. Galil Ace
6. FAL clones: DSA?
7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308
8. M1A/m14
9. FN SCAR

I think I like the idea of the Galil, but that's just me. Or maybe a Gucci AR like POF piston roller thing
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:09 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 pm
I don't plan on getting one for a while, but I really want a bigger semi-auto for hunting or blasting one day. And I like to keep up as the market is constantly changing.

Any experience, preferences, suggestions??

The list I'm aware of off the top of my head:

1. AR10 in various flavors (any good ones?)
2. G3 clones: zenith, PTR, Century, CETME?
3. The new Tavor 7
4. KelTec bullpup thing
5. Galil Ace
6. FAL clones: DSA?
7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308
8. M1A/m14
9. FN SCAR

I think I like the idea of the Galil, but that's just me. Or maybe a Gucci AR like POF piston roller thing
  1. I've never been a fan of the AR platform but I also have no complaint against it
  2. I have zero experience with these
  3. I've shot a Tavor at the range and it just confirmed that I really dislike bullpup configurations. I kept reaching for the mag in the wrong spot and it threw off my reloading. I can't imagine the 7 being different in that regard.
  4. Not just a bullpup, it's a KelTec bullpup. It's barely a step above HiPoint.
  5. I've not fired one but I have seen a couple at the range and I'm seriously interested in borrowing one someday and putting some rounds through it.
  6. Until you have experience with the original FAL how can you judge if a clone is better or worse?
  7. Zero experience or thoughts on this one.
  8. I've been an M14 fanboy since I was first introduced to them in my Gunner's Mate "A" school way back in 1974. I have many thousands of rounds through these and one is in the top slot on my shopping list once a small inheritance I'm getting clears probate. That's the actual M14 though, not the M1A. The M1A seems like a decent copy but I'm not a fan of Springfield Armory.
  9. Tried one at the range and I can't see what all the hype is about with it. I'll take an M14 or even an M59 at half the price over one any day of the week.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by woodsghost » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:07 am

I have experience with the KelTec and the Saiga. I greatly preferred the KelTec, and the Saiga convinced me that longer barrels are better for .308. IMHO, 16 inches is too short. Just opinions.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Stercutus » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:21 am

1. AR10 in various flavors (any good ones?)
That is what I went with. I have an older DPMS (pre FG). It runs great and was 1/2 MOA OOB.
2. G3 clones: zenith, PTR, Century, CETME?
I have shot real G3's and CETME's. I just prefer the AR10 Style. The AR10 style is more accurate or I shoot it better.
3. The new Tavor 7
4. KelTec bullpup thing
5. Galil Ace
6. FAL clones: DSA?
7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308
8. M1A/m14
9. FN SCAR
Don't know a thing about any of these. I have shot the M14 a few times, but not enough to really get to know it. It seemed like an upgraded semiauto hunting rifle.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by 91Eunozs » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:02 pm

Hard to go wrong with a well-sorted AR10 in .308 or even 6.5 Creedmoor; lots of support and options. A couple friends own Falkor Petras in 300 WinMag and love them. One of them also owns a SCAR-17 with the lower that accepts standard AR10 mags (can’t recall name)... That combo might very well be the perfect option for a well developed and proven “battle” rifle.

My home brewed AR10 in .308 is a dream to shoot once I sorted the bolt carrier and chamber issue (cut with a worn reamer so it was very tight for 7.62x51 ammo):

Image

Other than that, I’d go old school with an M1.

Wildcard for me would be some of the smaller calibers like 6.8 SPC-2, 6.5 Grendel, or some other “.30ish” caliber round (probably somewhere between existing .243 and .270 calibers) in an AR15 sized platform. Will be very interesting to see what big green settles on for the next generation platform.

We have to get away from .223/5.56mm at some point, don’t we?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by RickOShea » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:33 pm

91Eunozs wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:02 pm
Hard to go wrong with a well-sorted AR10 in .308 or even 6.5 Creedmoor; lots of support and options.
^^^This^^^
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by emclean » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:01 am

7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308
are these really that much of unicorns?

I have a DSA FAL, PTR91, and S-308. (would like a M1A & AR 10, but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
I like the DAS FAL, or depending on how much time on an AR platform you have, it is also a good option. the PTR functions fine, but the FAL is easer to clean, mechanically simpler, and had an adjustable gas system.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Dabster » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:31 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 pm
1. AR10 in various flavors (any good ones?) -IMHO this is your best choice. A joy to shoot, great design, known manual of arms, great support.
2. G3 clones: zenith, PTR, Century, CETME? -I am a huge HK fanboi and I still hate these. They are just goofy and awkward.
3. The new Tavor 7 -No idea but here are known issues with bullpups.
4. KelTec bullpup thing -Keltec: enough said.
5. Galil Ace -Held one. I suspect proprietary magazines and the Kalashnikov action is not designed for the accuracy one expects from 7.62x51.
6. FAL clones: DSA? -These are supposed to be great. They are light weight and have a nicely adjustable gas system but the trigger and sights are not up to modern standards,
7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308 See #5.
8. M1A/m14 -Fun to shoot, goofy manual of arms, heavy, hard to install optics, reliability suffers when changes are made for accuracy.
9. FN SCAR I shot the 5.56 version once. It felt very plastic and in no way superior to an AR-15.
I guess the DesertTech is worth looking at but I am still voting for a decent AR-10 over everything.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by flybynight » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm

but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm

flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Stercutus » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:03 pm

NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm
flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
If you made it clear that she can enter the swim suit contest like everyone else IDK what the big deal would be. You could tell her if she is toting a rifle you will likely call dibs.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by woodsghost » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:30 pm

NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm
flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
I don't know what you would do with a bunch of swimsuits. I barely wear the one I have. I don't know that I'd ever need anything more.

:mrgreen:
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:36 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:30 pm
NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm
flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
I don't know what you would do with a bunch of swimsuits. I barely wear the one I have. I don't know that I'd ever need anything more.

:mrgreen:
I could use a new one to wear for the next ZS Mods photoshoot.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:43 pm

NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:36 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:30 pm
NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm
flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
You say that like there's something wrong with it
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
I don't know what you would do with a bunch of swimsuits. I barely wear the one I have. I don't know that I'd ever need anything more. :mrgreen:
I could use a new one to wear for the next ZS Mods photoshoot.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:46 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:43 pm
NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:36 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:30 pm
NT2C wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:30 pm
My wife says it's inappropriate when watching the swimsuit competition at a beauty pageant. Women... go figure :roll:
I don't know what you would do with a bunch of swimsuits. I barely wear the one I have. I don't know that I'd ever need anything more. :mrgreen:
I could use a new one to wear for the next ZS Mods photoshoot.
We apologize for whatever it was that we did.

By my use of "we", I mean, Humanity as a whole.... :clownshoes:
Why am I getting flashbacks to that ZS "give cancer the finger" calender/photoshoot thing from a few years back ? :shock:

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 pm
I don't plan on getting one for a while, but I really want a bigger semi-auto for hunting or blasting one day. And I like to keep up as the market is constantly changing.

Any experience, preferences, suggestions??

The list I'm aware of off the top of my head:

1. AR10 in various flavors (any good ones?)
2. G3 clones: zenith, PTR, Century, CETME?
3. The new Tavor 7
4. KelTec bullpup thing
5. Galil Ace
6. FAL clones: DSA?
7. unicorn AK/Saiga .308
8. M1A/m14
9. FN SCAR

I think I like the idea of the Galil, but that's just me. Or maybe a Gucci AR like POF piston roller thing
AR10, VEPR or Galil Ace. First two have easier to find parts. But I'd like to see accuracy differences between the three. I'd venture to guess the Galil was the most accurate. But perhaps AR10 is? Weight advantage goes to AR10 off the top of my head. I don't have actual weights for these. OTher than the VEPR is the heaviest AK. I think it would outweigh the other two. But maybe a Saiga with a solid folding stock (think Polish Beryl aluminum folding stock). Would be the lightest and cheapest? And most compact. But that AR10 pictured above is lightweight too. I'd think you could get a solid AR10 built under 8 or 9lbs?

If it's for AK hunting. I'd consider the VEPR and Galil over the AR. Although the only issues I've read about the AR and cold. Is you have to choose the right lubricant. A VEPR or Galil is going to run no matter what. But if you can get an AR down in weight and use the right lube. That might be the killer combination.

The rest of your list seems like better combat rifles than hunting rifles. But even then I'd choose either the AK or AR platforms for ease of parts. And personally I am more familiar with those two. So take that with a grain of salt. The FAL/G3's seem to heavy and long. I've never liked Keltec. The M14 - again to heavy and long. The rest are better combat rifles instead of something you'd use for hunting. IMHO.

But having written this maybe the race is between the AR10 and the Saiga. Weight, general accuracy, ease of finding parts. But you have to factor in the price or time and parts in a Saiga conversion if you want all the fancy bits. So that just leaves the AR10. Probably the most economical. And probably the least felt recoil. And it's certainly proven itself in the cold and for hunting. I guess my final vote is for the AR10. As boring as that sounds. There's a reason it's so popular. Lots of parts and it's economical these days.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by emclean » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:43 am

flybynight wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:41 pm
but I have been accused of wanting one of everything)
You say that like there's something wrong with it
No, just quoting my wife, and she thinks there is something wrong with that.
unless it is shoes, for her.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by The Twizzler » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:12 am

Well if you wanted to be different you could get an Ishapore Enfield. It's an Indian made 7.62x51 Enfield they made in the 60's. I own one and its a peach the bore is pristine (they are not usually fired much due to ammo restrictions). The stock has been repaired and is a little roughed up but it's remarkably accurate. The only thing I did have to have repaired was the extractor by a gunsmith but that only cost 35 bucks. If you want to shoot Irons it's great. It is kinda diffficult to mount a scope but for irons it's remarkably accurate. The Indians still issue these to their border regiments so if you read a story about Indian troops in the Himalayas they are probably using these. Instead of 10 rounds like an English Enfield it holds 12 rounds in the internal magazine. I think I payed 400 bucks 3 years ago.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Langenator » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm

Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration

FAL: the first choice of most of the NATO countries (England, Canada, and actually Germany's first choice as well, except FN didn't feel like giving them a production license) that didn't go with something domestic for political reasons, plus countries like Israel, South Africa, Australia, and Argentina. The Right Arm of the Free World, and designed by JMB's FN successor, Saive. The FAL probably would have won the U.S. Army's own trials if NIH syndrome hadn't reared it's head. Versions available from DSA can be had with 16" barrels all the way to service rifle length.

G-3/PTR-91/CETME: The Germans went with the G-3, derived from the CETME (whose action, IIRC, derived from the MG-42's roller lock system), when FN wouldn't give them a production license for the FAL. Made under license by countries as diverse as Mexico, Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan. Possibly Norway as well. Known for mangling brass.

SCAR-17: purchased by USSOCOM because it represented a massive upgrade over the M-14s they had been using. Whether it would have been considered a big enough upgrade over AR-10s, had they been in large scale use, is an unanswered question. The little brother SCAR, the SCAR-16, ultimately wasn't considered a big enough upgrade over the M-4A1s and HK-416s to be worth the extra cost.

If you've already got an AR-15 (even if it went missing during that beer-sotted boat trip), I'd probably go with an AR-10. Same manual of arms, lots of accessories, easy to mount optics. The main annoyance is that the AR-10 family isn't near as standardized as the AR-15.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:22 pm

Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
The main annoyance is that the AR-10 family isn't near as standardized as the AR-15.
Can you expand on that?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm

Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration
I'm not sure where you're getting that 1958-1968 date from but I don't think it's correct, based on the fact that my command was issued M14 rifles in March of 1975, most Navy ships still have a number of them in the ship's armory, and they're still in limited use as designated marksman rifles today.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by RickOShea » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:44 pm

moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:22 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
The main annoyance is that the AR-10 family isn't near as standardized as the AR-15.
Can you expand on that?
Claude ham mercy....that's a can of worms.

One of the biggest is the differences in receiver styles/shapes. A lot of brands fall into two main styles: Armalite or DPMS. An Armalite-style upper receiver may fit on a DPMS-style lower receiver, but there will be a gap at the rear. A DPMS upper receiver won't work on an Armalite lower receiver at all. And even if you have an upper and lower of the same style, but from different manufacturers, the holes for the push pins may not always line-up properly. Also, there are a couple different thread pitches for the barrel nut. IIRC, DPMS-type upper receivers are 16 TPI, but a lot of the Armalite-types are 18 TPI.


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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by boskone » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:33 pm

Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration
I want an M14, or more likely M1A. I'm not going to pretend due to some superiority of design, though, but rather just because I like they way they look. :D

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Stercutus » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm

NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration
I'm not sure where you're getting that 1958-1968 date from but I don't think it's correct, based on the fact that my command was issued M14 rifles in March of 1975, most Navy ships still have a number of them in the ship's armory, and they're still in limited use as designated marksman rifles today.
They gave you the ones the Army threw away. The only place I saw an M14 in use in the Army 1988-2014 was at VMI where the cadets were running around with them as cadet rifles. The firing pins had been removed but they were otherwise fully functional.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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