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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:26 pm 
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raptor wrote:
flybynight wrote:
Milsurp as a viable cost effective option is dead. You will never again walk into a gun store to find long racks of Enfields, Garands, K-31's , Mausers of every descriptions FN 1949's and crates of Mosin's and SKS all selling for under a hundred bucks.


Bingo.

As a child I would go to a local "Army/Navy Store" and they had drums of surplus rifles for sale for $5 to $25 (pre-GCA-1968) for sale. Most were in the $10 to $15 range. They were generally covered in a mixture of cosmoline, dirt and crud. Mosins or SKS were obviously absent but Enfields, SMLE and 1903 A3 were present.

Times have changed and so should you.

BTW if you need a spear, a bayonet and a shovel handle work well and as for a club, a baseball bat come to mind. :D



So you're going to carry a shovel, baseball bat AND a rifle? :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Here is what I am talking about. Aimsurplus has this for AR-15 with a red dot for $499. I am not shilling for them

Quote:
Bushmaster® QRC Quick Response Carbine with Mini Red Dot


https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx ... f-18280261

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:15 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Here is what I am talking about. Aimsurplus has this for AR-15 with a red dot for $499. I am not shilling for them

Quote:
Bushmaster® QRC Quick Response Carbine with Mini Red Dot


https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx ... f-18280261


Bah, for a few hundred more get an SBR with can for $799.

https://www.hardenedarms.com/ecProduct_ ... or%20Rifle

I'd go with that over a Garand any day.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
Here is what I am talking about. Aimsurplus has this for AR-15 with a red dot for $499. I am not shilling for them

Quote:
Bushmaster® QRC Quick Response Carbine with Mini Red Dot


https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx ... f-18280261


Bah, for a few hundred more get an SBR with can for $799.

https://www.hardenedarms.com/ecProduct_ ... or%20Rifle


For the record I am not shilling for aimsurplus.


That is a good price for the rifle.

However for my example I was trying to stay under $500 to keep it in the cheap alternative to milsurp ($300 to $500) category.
You can actually find cheaper ARs.



So the question is when comparing capability is a Mosin at ~$300, a Savage Bolt action with a scope at ~ $325, a low end AR @ $499, a low end Garand at ~$650, or a high end supressed AR @ $799 even in the same ballpark for comparison purposes.


Which would you recommend to someone with a hard and fast $500 budget (after of course the answer of save your money to buy what you want).

Me? I would say look at the low end ARs long and hard.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm 
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In regards to cheap ARs, CDNN has one for $439 and if I use my usual FFL dealer, it'd cost me 35 bucks to transfer the gun and it'd probably be just under 500 bucks with shipping and taxes.

I'm actually strongly considering getting one once I have the money. The days of me actively looking for milsurp guns are probably over now that the cost of them is getting so high. It just doesn't make financial sense for me to pay five to six hundred bucks for a milsurp gun when ARs and other guns are either the same amount or even cheaper.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:09 pm 
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For $500?

PSA Complete lower $170 with free shipping http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-comp ... er-a2.html
PSA Complete upper $240 with free shipping http://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa ... 1740b.html
That puts you at at $410, add $25 or so for FFL fee.

Not my first choice of rifle, but it's a rifle that can do more than most milsurps, may not make a very good club though :awesome:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:21 pm 
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ManInBlack316 wrote:
For $500?

PSA Complete lower $170 with free shipping http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-comp ... er-a2.html
PSA Complete upper $240 with free shipping http://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa ... 1740b.html
That puts you at at $410, add $25 or so for FFL fee.

Not my first choice of rifle, but it's a rifle that can do more than most milsurps, may not make a very good club though :awesome:


Hard to beat that price... Upgrade to an ALG trigger and the rest on ammo, mags, and a sling. Maybe a soft case + mag deal PSA has about once a month...and don’t forget to budget for training.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:01 am 
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The lighter part I can't argue with. The just as durable part I think is a mistake. I have argued this before on ZS but I honestly believe most milsurps are more durable than your standard hunting rifle. The milsurp was designed to work in harsh conditions over and over again by( in many cases) illiterate peasants. They were not gonna be careful with the rifle or clean and oil it after shooting. They were designed to fire thousands of round vs your 300 dollar hunting rifle that usually only fires 100-300 rounds realistically.
An Arisaka while the but is short for obvious reasons is widely considered one of the strongest actions of WW2. The Italian Carcano was the rifle Lee H Oswald managed to kill President Kennedy with multiple head shots in a moving car from 83 yards away.
I have said a milsurp is a proven weapon in war while your more modern 300 buck rifles are factually not.


Stercutus wrote:
For $300 you can buy a brand new bolt action rifle that will be lighter, just as durable and outperform any of the Italian or Japanese surplus rifles. Ammo will be much more widely available, higher quality and cheaper. The rifle will probably even come with a scope. The only edge the milsurp will have will be in rapid fire performance. If you are reduced to rapid firing a bolt action rifle you likely will only need it once.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:05 am 
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Milsurps vs modern...

Criteria:
- iron sights
- manually operated
- "full size" cartridge
- tough
- under $400

Results: Mosin M44 or a Marlin 336. Or get lucky on a used gun rack.

I think both are logical which is why both are used for camping/hunting for me

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:21 am 
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I have to disagree with some of what you said.

Surplus rifles are not "designed to work in harsh conditions without cleaning by peasants." They are designed to be cared for like any other rifle. The fact that they work with less cleaning is a happy accident, not a design feature. And the ones which quit working were probably weeded out before hitting the sales floor. So we are dealing with a Selection Effect.

Many modern guns have modern steels which don't rust as easily (usually stainless). Those actually don't require as much cleaning as the old guns.

Old guns often had corrosive ammunition, and while ALL ammo is a little corrosive, the old stuff was much worse and really required cleaning to stay in shape. Even today peasants clean their guns in any country where they understand guns. Usually it is a shoe lace with knots, dipped in oil and run through the bore.

Modern hunting rifles probably have more than 100-300 rounds run through them. However, they have to be designed to have many more rounds run through them in case they are bought by someone who takes more pleasure in shooting.

Also, from what I have read a lot of old militaries did not shoot a lot of ammo during peace time. I'm not sure how many surplus rifles have actually had many shots fired through them. South American Mausers have probably seen far fewer rounds than most Arisakas.

Where I have to strongly agree with you Twizzler is modern guns are not really designed for bayonet use.

I will argue by assertion that some modern guns are just as strong as old surplus guns. Particularly guns designed to fire heavier cartridges. However, in general I suspect you have a point there. Most guns are engineered to their needs, but not over-engineered. And are we talking about bayoneting strength or action strength? Again, I agree most modern guns are not meant to bayonet anything. But I think many modern guns designed for similar cartridges are just as strong in the action as the old guns.

Just my thoughts.


The Twizzler wrote:
The lighter part I can't argue with. The just as durable part I think is a mistake. I have argued this before on ZS but I honestly believe most milsurps are more durable than your standard hunting rifle. The milsurp was designed to work in harsh conditions over and over again by( in many cases) illiterate peasants. They were not gonna be careful with the rifle or clean and oil it after shooting. They were designed to fire thousands of round vs your 300 dollar hunting rifle that usually only fires 100-300 rounds realistically.
An Arisaka while the but is short for obvious reasons is widely considered one of the strongest actions of WW2. The Italian Carcano was the rifle Lee H Oswald managed to kill President Kennedy with multiple head shots in a moving car from 83 yards away.
I have said a milsurp is a proven weapon in war while your more modern 300 buck rifles are factually not.


Stercutus wrote:
For $300 you can buy a brand new bolt action rifle that will be lighter, just as durable and outperform any of the Italian or Japanese surplus rifles. Ammo will be much more widely available, higher quality and cheaper. The rifle will probably even come with a scope. The only edge the milsurp will have will be in rapid fire performance. If you are reduced to rapid firing a bolt action rifle you likely will only need it once.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:56 am 
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The Twizzler wrote:
The lighter part I can't argue with. The just as durable part I think is a mistake. I have argued this before on ZS but I honestly believe most milsurps are more durable than your standard hunting rifle. The milsurp was designed to work in harsh conditions over and over again by( in many cases) illiterate peasants. They were not gonna be careful with the rifle or clean and oil it after shooting. They were designed to fire thousands of round vs your 300 dollar hunting rifle that usually only fires 100-300 rounds realistically.
An Arisaka while the but is short for obvious reasons is widely considered one of the strongest actions of WW2. The Italian Carcano was the rifle Lee H Oswald managed to kill President Kennedy with multiple head shots in a moving car from 83 yards away.
I have said a milsurp is a proven weapon in war while your more modern 300 buck rifles are factually not.


Stercutus wrote:
For $300 you can buy a brand new bolt action rifle that will be lighter, just as durable and outperform any of the Italian or Japanese surplus rifles. Ammo will be much more widely available, higher quality and cheaper. The rifle will probably even come with a scope. The only edge the milsurp will have will be in rapid fire performance. If you are reduced to rapid firing a bolt action rifle you likely will only need it once.


Your assessment of MILSURP durability is spot on, especially in the world of autos. :clap:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:04 pm 
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I think this discussion is conflicted by the ultimate intended use of the firearm. Natural disaster bug out weapon or TEOTWAWKI. So specifically speaking , You are walking out the door with your INCH weapon. There will be no internet to order parts or look up repair procedures. No corner LGS or local gunsmiths. It's just you against a harsh new world . What weapon is going to be in your hands . Disregard cost.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:07 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
I think this discussion is conflicted by the ultimate intended use of the firearm. Natural disaster bug out weapon or TEOTWAWKI. So specifically speaking , You are walking out the door with your INCH weapon. There will be no internet to order parts or look up repair procedures. No corner LGS or local gunsmiths. It's just you against a harsh new world . What weapon is going to be in your hands . Disregard cost.


I feel like that is a lot of where the love for SS shotguns came from in the preparedness community. So ironically, the "best weapon for a brave new world" may, maybe, be one of the cheapest weapons. If you buy the arguments.

A lot of the "best weapon" stuff depends on how far into this brave new world we are talking about. And whether there are ninja zombie bikers or just mutant bears we need to face. Or an economic depression. Different guns for each.

And then there are state laws which influence things. Some places a Ruger Scout or similar is about as good as you can do.

Then some of us really are strapped for cash. Reid Henrichs of Valor Ridge talked about a guy who showed up to class with an SKS and revolver. Cuz that is what he could afford. And he learned to get it done with that. Which brings up another point: what matters is "getting it done." We can argue about "best" all day long, but what matters is getting it done and being alive at the end of the day.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:31 pm 
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My $.02 Is that training and proficiency with your chosen INCH firearm will be as important as the firearm. Buy what you can afford to buy AND train with it.

In that truly Hollywood style of grabbing a firearm and heading for the hills al la Red Dawn, world war z, etc. I would likely grab one of my ARs which is in a carry case with a spare parts kit and spare magpul magazines. That and one of the ammo cans of ammo.

I would not grab one of my milsurp shooters. I would opt for more ammo instead. I would do this not because it is the best of the best, but rather this is one of the rifles i shoot a lot. I trust it and know it. It has nothing to doi
with being a fan of them, only being familiar with it.

That said YMMV.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:22 pm 
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The Twizzler wrote:
Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:


In 42 years I will trot out my Nylon 66 and give it a go. I am willing to bet it runs like new. It runs great today.

I am not saying milsurps are trash, I own a one or two of them. But comparatively if my choice is between my R700 and my Enfield I'm picking the R700 nearly every single time, for whatever application it is unless we are defending against the Russian hordes and I have a crate of .303.

I can't think of any milsurp gun I'd pick over a modern (or newer and updated) gun of similar action and caliber. I'd pick any of my current AR's over the M16A1 I was issued in basic training for example. Not that the A1 is an option in my price range I just find a huge barrel designed to fire a 55gr bullet less useful than shorter barrel rifle designed to fire a wider array of bullet weights.

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The Twizzler wrote:
Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:
3758 ad.

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Well you stirred up some excitement :)

I feel there are some important nuances. There are 2 types of wood gun furniture and 2 types of plastic gun furniture.

Looks cool furniture.

User furniture.

The Looks Cool furniture, whether wood or plastic, does not stand up well to use, sunlight, or moisture.

User furniture stands up to being used as a paddle, a club, a battering ram, bayonet use, and still allows one to shoot their rifle.

I'll throw out my bias and point out the AK has a reputation for being able to do all the above and continue working in austere environments. So does the G3 family of rifles. The FAL has a good reputation.

Much as I like to tease my CAR friends, a buddy got to tour Vietnam last year. He got to shoot a M16A1 and do some full auto tourism. As one thinks about that one realizes that is a 50 year old rifle, owned and operated by peasants, exposed to 50 years of monsoons and jungle humidity, used for how many years of jungle warfare, then used for 10-20 years of full auto tourism. That is a tough gun. He said they would spray down each mag with lubricant and spray the rifle too between mags. He said it was quite the experience. So please don't think the rifle was in great shape by this point. But it's aluminum and plastic was still functioning.

While I like old guns and have no problem with someone preferring the old guard to the new stuff. I am very confident in modern rifles with real, user furniture.

The Twizzler wrote:
Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:


PS: I don't expect a PSA Special to last for 50 years in Vietnam.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Okay :crazy: , let's get down to the nitty gritty.Plastics also fail.
Image
Image

Now, let us look at wood and steel. All from the 16th century. 500 years old and still working. NO plastic fantastic can make that claim and you can't guarantee it will. :v:
Image
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So if had to pick one, it would be the working one :)

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Right with you. Plastics fail.

I was thinking along your lines earlier and then I wondered about some of the images of guns all rusted and decayed. I was looking at double barreled shotguns in the $150 range and some of those are pretty rough. So I thought maybe there is something else going on. The best guns and the most cared for guns survive for us today, 500 years later. But the ones which saw use are beaten after so many years being exposed to nature.


Ok. What also got me thinking about all this was 80's music. Was music really better in the 80's? I listened to some of the stuff which did not make the Top 40 and decided some music deserves to stay in the Dust Bin of History. Only the best gets remembered and sticks around, and the same goes for guns. Only the better made guns and the carefully stored guns stay around today. The rest are turned into rust and mulch.

But I'm with you. I like wood and steel. But my user knives ride in plastic. I still opt for carbon steel, but they ride in plastic.

Just where I'm at right now.

The Twizzler wrote:
Okay :crazy: , let's get down to the nitty gritty.Plastics also fail.
Image
Image

Now, let us look at wood and steel. All from the 16th century. 500 years old and still working. NO plastic fantastic can make that claim and you can't guarantee it will. :v:
Image
Image

So if had to pick one, it would be the working one :)

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woodsghost wrote:
Well you stirred up some excitement :)

I feel there are some important nuances. There are 2 types of wood gun furniture and 2 types of plastic gun furniture.

Looks cool furniture.

User furniture.

The Looks Cool furniture, whether wood or plastic, does not stand up well to use, sunlight, or moisture.

User furniture stands up to being used as a paddle, a club, a battering ram, bayonet use, and still allows one to shoot their rifle.

I'll throw out my bias and point out the AK has a reputation for being able to do all the above and continue working in austere environments. So does the G3 family of rifles. The FAL has a good reputation.

Much as I like to tease my CAR friends, a buddy got to tour Vietnam last year. He got to shoot a M16A1 and do some full auto tourism. As one thinks about that one realizes that is a 50 year old rifle, owned and operated by peasants, exposed to 50 years of monsoons and jungle humidity, used for how many years of jungle warfare, then used for 10-20 years of full auto tourism. That is a tough gun. He said they would spray down each mag with lubricant and spray the rifle too between mags. He said it was quite the experience. So please don't think the rifle was in great shape by this point. But it's aluminum and plastic was still functioning.

While I like old guns and have no problem with someone preferring the old guard to the new stuff. I am very confident in modern rifles with real, user furniture.

The Twizzler wrote:
Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:


PS: I don't expect a PSA Special to last for 50 years in Vietnam.

I guess not many of us reading this will be holding a Glock in 2080 and saying I told you so, which ever way one thinks.
Today there was a semi local auction with a milsurp that I've always considered a great trunk or what if rifle. A Spanish FR 8. It was a online auction and last time I checked was at $245. I didn't bid cause I basically already have something similar, just don't need it or failed to want it bad enough. Plus I'm spending gun money more on a 1972 GMC PU I recently bought. But if the price of M1's drops with that new CMP shipment I will buy one . You know :wink: , in case of Nazi zombies

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Last edited by flybynight on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:14 pm 
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I would love a FR 8. I'm with you, it would be a great "what if" gun. Especially at that price.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:27 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Well you stirred up some excitement :)

I feel there are some important nuances. There are 2 types of wood gun furniture and 2 types of plastic gun furniture.

Looks cool furniture.

User furniture.

The Looks Cool furniture, whether wood or plastic, does not stand up well to use, sunlight, or moisture.

User furniture stands up to being used as a paddle, a club, a battering ram, bayonet use, and still allows one to shoot their rifle.

I'll throw out my bias and point out the AK has a reputation for being able to do all the above and continue working in austere environments. So does the G3 family of rifles. The FAL has a good reputation.

Much as I like to tease my CAR friends, a buddy got to tour Vietnam last year. He got to shoot a M16A1 and do some full auto tourism. As one thinks about that one realizes that is a 50 year old rifle, owned and operated by peasants, exposed to 50 years of monsoons and jungle humidity, used for how many years of jungle warfare, then used for 10-20 years of full auto tourism. That is a tough gun. He said they would spray down each mag with lubricant and spray the rifle too between mags. He said it was quite the experience. So please don't think the rifle was in great shape by this point. But it's aluminum and plastic was still functioning.

While I like old guns and have no problem with someone preferring the old guard to the new stuff. I am very confident in modern rifles with real, user furniture.

The Twizzler wrote:
Oh, I agree that you should take the weapon you train with the most and are most effective with. It just always butters my onions when people say all milsurp's wont get the job done or don't have their own positives compared with modern guns.I also have never really trusted plastics to stand the test of time. I know many will argue about it's merits and I understand them, I just can't for the life of me see those guns still working in a 100 years when I know metal and wood will. :words:


PS: I don't expect a PSA Special to last for 50 years in Vietnam.

I guess not many of us reading this will be holding a Glock in 2080 and saying I told you so, which ever way one thinks.
Today there was a semi local auction with a milsurp that I've always considered a great trunk or what if rifle. A Spanish FR 8. It was a online auction and last time I checked checked was at $245. I didn't bid cause I basically already have. Something similar, just don't need it or failed to want it bad enough. Plus I'm spending gun money more on a 1972 GMC PU I recently bought. But if the price of M1's drops with that new CMP shipment I will buy one . You know :wink: , in case of Nazi zombies



Shouldn't it be Russian zombies, in our current situation? :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:59 am 
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Well , it's a Garand. Traditionally speaking it would be Nazi's

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