How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

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How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by moab » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm

I just want to say one thing off the top. I love milsurp anything. I love old guns. I love old gear. I'm an AK guy. Not an AR guy. But ever since buying an AR for $375 last summer. My attitudes towards milsurp bug out rifles has changed a lot.

Everytime I see a milsurp gun for sale in the $250 to $500 range. All I can wonder is how can you buy that for bugging out (or any other use) when you can get an AR for $400? I rarely see an SKS for less than $400. Or a Mosin for less that $300. I'm not a big shopper of milsurp rifles. I mean I own a few (a mauser, a mosin, an sks, an old springfield 30.-06). And have had several. And I keep up with the prices on gun-deals. But the prices just seem out to lunch these days. When you can get an AR like these.

Not the best in the world. But the Windham Weaponry one is well worth it with the chrome lined barrel and the Bushmaster legacy.

$489 with chrome lined barrel. This is the old Bushmaster factory. by all accounts a great rifle.

https://gun.deals/product/windham-weapo ... 57-shipped

Or this for $379. I think there is even a rebate on these on top of that. I'm pretty sure you can get a chrome lined barrel version for around $400. I bought one for $375. (I comment on chrome lining a lot. Because I think it's imperative in a bug out situation. And I don't mean a disaster bug out. A real PAW situation. You may need that longevity of a chrome lined barrel.)

https://gun.deals/product/dpms-oracle-3 ... rebate-344

And that's just two examples. You've got the Rugers. You've got the S&W's. The list goes on and on.

(The AK market is insane too. Although the chrome lined barreled receivers from Atlantic are a GREAT deal. $500 bucks and all you need is stuff you customize anyway = stocks, hg's, fcg and a recoil spring. But then your in it like $600-$650.)

I mean if you specifically are looking for a bug out rifle or even a bug in rifle. It seems like a no brainer. All those arguments for a mosin or sks from 2 or 3(?) years ago seem not to make sense these days. I could count off my hands and fingers the many reasons an AR would be better than a milsurp in a PAW. (ANd I'm not even an AR guy. I'm an AK guy.) Ammo being one - before and after the paw. Modularity and access to parts is insane. There are literally millions of them laying around the US for parts and upgrades in a PAW. Maybe not the end all be all - never jam rifle of our dreams. But still...

Who buys milsurps anymore for bugging out? It made sense when an AK could be had for $400. Or a Mosin was $150. Or an SKS was $275.

And if you want bolt action. You can get a new Savage 30.-06 for $350 with a scope new! Or any other caliber for that matter. Why would you buy a Mosin?

My how things have changed in the last year or so. Kind of makes me sad. I like old cheap rifles. But with budget in mind. I don't see me collecting to many more. And certainly not seriously considering them for bug out purposes.

Like I said, I'n not even an AR guy, and I say go buy one. Now. It's the best option for bugging out in many locales. At least in this market.

But what are your opinions? Why are you still buying milsurp? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by raptor » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:14 pm

I rarely even see milsurp weapons for sale anymore. When I do they are priced in the range of silly to absurd. It may be area only so YMMV.

That said a key reason for milsurp popularity was generally it was cheaper than other alternatives.

If you can buy NIB ate the same or at a lower cost, the allure of milsurp is reduced. That said old supply and demand is an uncompromising SOB. Less supply means higher prices.
The supply of milsurp especially com bloc stuff is drying up fast.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by moab » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:51 pm

raptor wrote:I rarely even see milsurp weapons for sale anymore. When I do they are priced in the range of silly to absurd. It may be area only so YMMV.

That said a key reason for milsurp popularity was generally it was cheaper than other alternatives.

If you can buy NIB the allure of milsurp is reduced. That said old supply and demand is an uncompromising SOB.
The supply of milsurp especially com bloc stuff is drying up fast.
It's sad. I don't see them anymore either. I wonder in today's administration of that's gonna change anytime soon. (sorry not trying to start anything political)

The funny part is I don't think I would have ever picked up another AR if they weren't so much cheaper than everything else. I shot perfect scores on A3's back in the early 80's. But have not shot one since. Haven't even shot this new one yet. (Moving issues.)

The real hurt that milsurps bring me is all the high dollar amounts set on US milsurps. It's all set by the CMP. And they seem determined to keep the "affordable" milsurp just out of reach of the normal shooter. I've looked at Garands on there. And could not find anything that seemed reasonable in relation to it's condition. I can afford to spend it. But I refuse to overpay for anything. And I honestly feel like they set to high a premium on them. When you can get a fairly new Mauser for $350. But a field grade (iirc whatever the lowest grade is.) Garand is $800(?). Somethings wrong.

Maybe things have changed. I haven't been on there for a few years. And these latest 1911's you have to actually go there iirc. I just read that in an article. I don't have the link. But I do know every 1911 I ever shot in the Marine Corps was a complete POS. Something left over from WWII with so slop it didn't even seem safe. lol.

But I'm one of those guys that refuses to overpay for anything. Even though those $800 Garands are probably worth even more on the open market. And not a bad investment. AT least we get them at all.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 pm

I think US surplus is overpriced but ties to history are important. I think video games based on WW2 and WW1 help too.

In ban states a SKS makes more sense. Or states threatening a ban.

If you want 30cal performance the cheapest route is 7.62x39. Now there are ARs in that caliber. It seems wrong an weird. But probably the cheapest way to do 30 Cal now is 7.62x39 and an AR. Though 7.62x39 and an SKS might be a good choice.

If going for the cheapest period, probably go with a 9mm Hi-point.

But those$400 ARs are hard to beat. I'll have to think about one.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by Mad Mike » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:13 pm

Perhaps you need a bigger caliber than 5.56? :idea:

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:31 pm

Mad Mike wrote:Perhaps you need a bigger caliber than 5.56? :idea:
In what bug out scenario would you need bigger?
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by Mad Mike » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:38 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:Perhaps you need a bigger caliber than 5.56? :idea:
In what bug out scenario would you need bigger?

Where you also have to deal with large carnivores...... :shock:

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:14 pm

And I honestly feel like they set to high a premium on them. When you can get a fairly new Mauser for $350. But a field grade (iirc whatever the lowest grade is.) Garand is $800(?).
$630 delivered to your door. Seems a good deal to me. I'd pick a surplus Garand over a Mauser every day of the week.

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

They seems to be selling like ice cream on a warm summer's day. The dealer business is heavily restricted so I think most are going to "normal shooters".


The real problem is there is no more supply. They can keep making AR's with Chinese junk parts forever cheap whereas the US Government (read gun manufacturer lobbyists) are loathe to let any more surplus guns hit the US market. I'd love to get a surplus SA-80 for example but it isn't ever going to happen.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by flybynight » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:51 pm

I'm going through a rethinking of just what will be my best choice of longarms in a paw scenario.. . It came about while reading one of the threads here and realizing that choosing weapons more suitable for a firefight is useless to me, since I will not survive a battlefield environment. So if I'm not going to be fighting my way through ninja nork zombie paratroopers , is my choice for subsistence hunting be a AR or AK? I feel I should have bought more Mausers and Springfield rifles. When they were affordable because milsurp is now a historical memory except for collectors.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:01 am

Mad Mike wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:Perhaps you need a bigger caliber than 5.56? :idea:
In what bug out scenario would you need bigger?

Where you also have to deal with large carnivores...... :shock:
There is a YouTube guy in Alaska who put down a grizzly with 5.45x39. As I recall it took most of a magazine. Details are over at the UW Gear forum. And some other place. I forget where I first hear the story.

I'm fairly sure poachers kill a lot of big game with 7.62x39. including elephants. So it does not take super bullets to kill big carnivores. But it seems if one is not using super bullets, one ought to use a LOT of bullets. And maybe bring friends with bullets.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, and an example is not "a rule" or even "a trend." It is just 1 example. So please take it with some salt :)
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:04 am

flybynight wrote:I'm going through a rethinking of just what will be my best choice of longarms in a paw scenario.. . It came about while reading one of the threads here and realizing that choosing weapons more suitable for a firefight is useless to me, since I will not survive a battlefield environment. So if I'm not going to be fighting my way through ninja nork zombie paratroopers , is my choice for subsistence hunting be a AR or AK? I feel I should have bought more Mausers and Springfield rifles. When they were affordable because milsurp is now a historical memory except for collectors.
.22s are still cheap. So is the ammo now. I think that will be your best subsistence round. 12ga and 20 ga are still plentiful and cheap. If you are abandoning the fighting rifle you may want to look hard at those.

Maybe a .22 pistol and single shot rifle or shotgun.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by w3rdtoyamama » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:20 am

I bought 2 lowers before the election for good prices.

all parts to complete I was at a fraction of surplus rifles. Like you, Im not an AR guy. I have an SKS, which I paid under $300 shipped to my door with C&R. So Im losing interest based on ridiculous pricing. Still cool guns though.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by Mad Mike » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:20 am

woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:Perhaps you need a bigger caliber than 5.56? :idea:
In what bug out scenario would you need bigger?

Where you also have to deal with large carnivores...... :shock:
There is a YouTube guy in Alaska who put down a grizzly with 5.45x39. As I recall it took most of a magazine. Details are over at the UW Gear forum. And some other place. I forget where I first hear the story.

I'm fairly sure poachers kill a lot of big game with 7.62x39. including elephants. So it does not take super bullets to kill big carnivores. But it seems if one is not using super bullets, one ought to use a LOT of bullets. And maybe bring friends with bullets.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, and an example is not "a rule" or even "a trend." It is just 1 example. So please take it with some salt :)
Maybe so - but a one time lucky break is not what I count on. I've heard of people living when their parachute didn't open, but I won't be expecting to be that lucky. Will you?

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by raptor » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:26 pm

I am wondering when new Garand production will commence. Seriously they have commercially produced carbine, Thompsons and of course 1911. Why not new Garand proction?

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by RickOShea » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:38 pm

raptor wrote:I am wondering when new Garand production will commence. Seriously they have commercially produced carbine, Thompsons and of course 1911. Why not new Garand proction?
Not exactly "new production", but they've been churning them out for a good while now...

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1-Garand-Rifles.aspx


Surplus wise, The CMP is supposed to be getting around 100,000 Garands back from Turkey and the Philippines here pretty soon.



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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by moab » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:28 pm

flybynight wrote:I'm going through a rethinking of just what will be my best choice of longarms in a paw scenario.. . It came about while reading one of the threads here and realizing that choosing weapons more suitable for a firefight is useless to me, since I will not survive a battlefield environment. So if I'm not going to be fighting my way through ninja nork zombie paratroopers , is my choice for subsistence hunting be a AR or AK? I feel I should have bought more Mausers and Springfield rifles. When they were affordable because milsurp is now a historical memory except for collectors.
I think you would do well with a .22lr. Like a 10/22 ruger. OR an AR with a $170 .22lr conversion kit. They snap in in minutes. And allow you to shoot .22lr. Or the standard 5.56. They used to make the kits for AK's too. But the guy stopped making them.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by moab » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:31 pm

RickOShea wrote:
raptor wrote:I am wondering when new Garand production will commence. Seriously they have commercially produced carbine, Thompsons and of course 1911. Why not new Garand proction?
Not exactly "new production", but they've been churning them out for a good while now...

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1-Garand-Rifles.aspx


Surplus wise, The CMP is supposed to be getting around 100,000 Garands back from Turkey and the Philippines here pretty soon.




$2000+ for a new garand. I could buy a lot of AK or AR for that much. Two or three really nice rifles on sale. Two and some ammo anyway.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by raptor » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:35 pm

Indeed a Garand is not cheap, but by the time you buy an rebuild a CMP surplus one, you likely have that much or more in it.

Honestly if you want a .30-06 semi auto buy a Browning or Remington semi auto.

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:50 pm

Mad Mike wrote:
Maybe so - but a one time lucky break is not what I count on. I've heard of people living when their parachute didn't open, but I won't be expecting to be that lucky. Will you?
Honestly? I'll take a 5.56 or 5.45 against a black bear any day that ends in "y." It is the grizzlies which will prove tougher, and the owner of Buffalo Bore says a properly made 9mm with a good shot will do in a grizzly. He has a whole article on it and IIRC claims he has 70 bears worth of experience to prove his point. So I figure if I can train for good shot placement I can do in a grizzly too. I just don't know if a 5.56 or 5.45 are what I'd want for that. I don't know how important mass is (vs Velocity) to shutting down a grizzlie's CNS.

For cougars, I'd take a 5.56 any day of the week.

For moose? I don't know enough to make a really good decision. Other than to say people hunt them with a 44 Mag.

For wolves? 5.56.

For African lions? I don't know enough to make a good decision. Also not a common threat in my area. But slightly more common than wolves. I actually think the zoo has a few.

For alligators? I know people kill them with .22s, so I figure a 5.56 will be ok.

Are there other carnivores to discuss?

Brown bears and African lions are the only really questionable critters I can think of when it comes to the power and capability of 5.56. And I'd rather have the mass of the 7.62x39. But having shot deer with the 7.62x39 I can say I'd rather have more mass and a bigger bullet when shooting for food and shooting 1 bullet. If shooting 15 bullets I don't think that big driving mass matters as much.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by ManInBlack316 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:51 pm

Yeah, I used to want to get some milsurp like a Mosin or such, but like you guys said, prices are crazy in my area.
Mosins are running $350-$450, but you can buy a modern bolt action and frankly you're probably getting much more for your money.
I can put together an AR from PSA for $400-$500, and I live in FL so I'm not worried about big four legged predators.

Stercutus, it would be cool to be able to get milsurp like SA80s though, got a British buddy on another forum that loves bullpups because he went through service carrying his SA80.

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by Mad Mike » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:34 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:
Maybe so - but a one time lucky break is not what I count on. I've heard of people living when their parachute didn't open, but I won't be expecting to be that lucky. Will you?
Honestly? I'll take a 5.56 or 5.45 against a black bear any day that ends in "y." It is the grizzlies which will prove tougher, and the owner of Buffalo Bore says a properly made 9mm with a good shot will do in a grizzly. He has a whole article on it and IIRC claims he has 70 bears worth of experience to prove his point. So I figure if I can train for good shot placement I can do in a grizzly too. I just don't know if a 5.56 or 5.45 are what I'd want for that. I don't know how important mass is (vs Velocity) to shutting down a grizzlie's CNS.

For cougars, I'd take a 5.56 any day of the week.

For moose? I don't know enough to make a really good decision. Other than to say people hunt them with a 44 Mag.

For wolves? 5.56.

For African lions? I don't know enough to make a good decision. Also not a common threat in my area. But slightly more common than wolves. I actually think the zoo has a few.

For alligators? I know people kill them with .22s, so I figure a 5.56 will be ok.

Are there other carnivores to discuss?

Brown bears and African lions are the only really questionable critters I can think of when it comes to the power and capability of 5.56. And I'd rather have the mass of the 7.62x39. But having shot deer with the 7.62x39 I can say I'd rather have more mass and a bigger bullet when shooting for food and shooting 1 bullet. If shooting 15 bullets I don't think that big driving mass matters as much.
I hope you never have to test your faith in 5.56, and that your loved ones won't live or die by the results.

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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by woodsghost » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:43 pm

Mad Mike wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:
Maybe so - but a one time lucky break is not what I count on. I've heard of people living when their parachute didn't open, but I won't be expecting to be that lucky. Will you?
Honestly? I'll take a 5.56 or 5.45 against a black bear any day that ends in "y." It is the grizzlies which will prove tougher, and the owner of Buffalo Bore says a properly made 9mm with a good shot will do in a grizzly. He has a whole article on it and IIRC claims he has 70 bears worth of experience to prove his point. So I figure if I can train for good shot placement I can do in a grizzly too. I just don't know if a 5.56 or 5.45 are what I'd want for that. I don't know how important mass is (vs Velocity) to shutting down a grizzlie's CNS.

For cougars, I'd take a 5.56 any day of the week.

For moose? I don't know enough to make a really good decision. Other than to say people hunt them with a 44 Mag.

For wolves? 5.56.

For African lions? I don't know enough to make a good decision. Also not a common threat in my area. But slightly more common than wolves. I actually think the zoo has a few.

For alligators? I know people kill them with .22s, so I figure a 5.56 will be ok.

Are there other carnivores to discuss?

Brown bears and African lions are the only really questionable critters I can think of when it comes to the power and capability of 5.56. And I'd rather have the mass of the 7.62x39. But having shot deer with the 7.62x39 I can say I'd rather have more mass and a bigger bullet when shooting for food and shooting 1 bullet. If shooting 15 bullets I don't think that big driving mass matters as much.
I hope you never have to test your faith in 5.56, and that your loved ones won't live or die by the results.
I hope I don't have to either.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by moab » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:43 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:
Maybe so - but a one time lucky break is not what I count on. I've heard of people living when their parachute didn't open, but I won't be expecting to be that lucky. Will you?
Honestly? I'll take a 5.56 or 5.45 against a black bear any day that ends in "y." It is the grizzlies which will prove tougher, and the owner of Buffalo Bore says a properly made 9mm with a good shot will do in a grizzly. He has a whole article on it and IIRC claims he has 70 bears worth of experience to prove his point. So I figure if I can train for good shot placement I can do in a grizzly too. I just don't know if a 5.56 or 5.45 are what I'd want for that. I don't know how important mass is (vs Velocity) to shutting down a grizzlie's CNS.

For cougars, I'd take a 5.56 any day of the week.

For moose? I don't know enough to make a really good decision. Other than to say people hunt them with a 44 Mag.

For wolves? 5.56.

For African lions? I don't know enough to make a good decision. Also not a common threat in my area. But slightly more common than wolves. I actually think the zoo has a few.

For alligators? I know people kill them with .22s, so I figure a 5.56 will be ok.

Are there other carnivores to discuss?

Brown bears and African lions are the only really questionable critters I can think of when it comes to the power and capability of 5.56. And I'd rather have the mass of the 7.62x39. But having shot deer with the 7.62x39 I can say I'd rather have more mass and a bigger bullet when shooting for food and shooting 1 bullet. If shooting 15 bullets I don't think that big driving mass matters as much.
I love you, WG. But you need some time in the real outdoors. Going after bear with a 5.56 is foolhardy. Go look up some video of charging bear. And tell me what you think your shot placement would be. I think the only thing your going to place is a big load in your pants. ;) Get charged once and your not gonna even think about 9mm or 5.56. You're gonna wanna think about .50 cal's and shotgun slugs. lol. 'I could buy AK47 on a charging bear. With plenty in my mag. But not 5.56. No way. I'd rather have a semi AK than a bolt action any day.

I'm sure you could drop a bear with 5.56. But not one charging you at 40 miles an hour.

That's why they use such large calibers on AFrican Lions. It's not that they can't take them with a smaller bullet. It's that they often charge. And you've got one quick chance to make a head shot.
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Re: How can you buy milsurp in today's market?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:48 pm

I always thought that mil-surps were a bad idea for a "bug-out" gun even when they were cheap. I got back into guns when I was in college around 2010ish. That's when I really started to notice the prepper movement on youtube where everyone was using mosins and .22s and single shot rifle/shotgun combos.

Yeah, if you only had a couple bucks, it was a good option (like I did in college), but I don't think a questionable bolt gun or a parted together semi-auto rifle was the best for surviving the end of the world. Yeah, I've had a lot of milsurps in my hands from family in the 90's, and none ran as well as my modern new guns.

As far as being a decent option: you get iron sights. Add it on top of being usable where some laws may limit choices. Might not be the "worst" option.

When it comes to animal defense, I'd only use 5.56/.223 up to wolves/cats with proper bullets. I'd say that it would be "adequate" in a semi-auto platform. I'd much prefer a 7.62x39. I think 5.56 would be OK with black bear, but I'd rather have something else.

As far as gators/crocs, distance hunters use big calibers like 375 H&H and aim for brain or spinal cord shots. Using a .22 is more of a fishing method as opposed to a hunting method.

I hear/tell of some folks really liking SKS for bear defense guns. I can see it: linear in build (no pistol grip or banana clipazine) to avoid snags, semi auto, in a goodish caliber and cheapish. Can be reliable (I've experienced both reliable and unreliable SKS even though I love the platform)
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