590 Shockwave question

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590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:14 pm

I am confused about the not a shotgun shotgun. Mossberg has not been helpful, telling me that it is a shotgun for the purpose of getting the Destructive Device definition, but then not a shotgun getting around the SBS, and AOW definitions.

am I the only one who finds this strange?
can anyone explain this to me, Mossberg cant.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:25 pm

Not sure which specific model you're talking about, but most of those shotties are considered "firearm" and not SBS, DD, or AOW.

They kinda take advantage of the ATF's "loophole" on legal definitions.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:42 pm

the problem is that to not be a DD, it has to be a shotgun, but to not be a SBS, or AOW it cant be a shotgun.

I worry about it going the way of the akins accelerator, they sell them, I get one, then the ATF says oopies we were wrong, they are NFA, turn them in now or face charges. ant that quick a lot of people are out $500 (MSRP) or so bucks

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Zembecowicz » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:46 pm

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

As I understand it, the NFA says that a shotgun was initially defined as having been built to fire from the shoulder. If it has a barrel less than 18", you need a $200 tax stamp.
There's also another definition for a "smoothbore pistol", which was intended to be fired as a handgun and has an overall length under 26". Those require a $5 stamp.

The Mossberg Shockwave never had a shoulder stock, so it wasn't built to be fired from the shoulder. It also has an overall length over 26", so it isn't a smoothbore pistol. Because of these things it falls under the catch-all category of "firearm".

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:51 pm

Technically speaking, since the 590 Shockwave falls under the whole ATF 26 inch overall rule, they classify it as a "firearm" and not a shotgun. And since it never had a real stock on it, it doesn't fit the criteria of an SBS. And since it began life as a 'firearm', it doesn't fit under the criteria for an AOW either.

It's confusing as all hell.

I'd still like to get one, but the ATF changing their minds later on worries me as well. I'll probably hold off until later in the year or until the ATF unscrew themselves regarding their definitions.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:53 pm

Zembecowicz wrote:I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

As I understand it, the NFA says that a shotgun was initially defined as having been built to fire from the shoulder. If it has a barrel less than 18", you need a $200 tax stamp.
There's also another definition for a "smoothbore pistol", which was intended to be fired as a handgun and has an overall length under 26". Those require a $5 stamp.

The Mossberg Shockwave never had a shoulder stock, so it wasn't built to be fired from the shoulder. It also has an overall length over 26", so it isn't a smoothbore pistol. Because of these things it falls under the catch-all category of "firearm".
I get that, but it still ignores the less know definition of a destructive device. which is defined by the ATF as "Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may readily be converted to expel a projectile, by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore greater than one-half inch in diameter."
and there is an exemption for a shotgun, but as pointed out, it isn't a shotgun.

from what I can tell the smooth bore pistol falls into the AOW category.

remember Mossberg is telling people that this is not any type of a NFA weapon.
I'd still like to get one, but the ATF changing their minds later on worries me as well. I'll probably hold off until later in the year or until the ATF unscrew themselves regarding their definitions.
I would kind of like one too, but until someone can explain to me how it isn't DD (other than Mossberg answer of it is a shotgun for that, but not the rest of the NFA) I am going to have to hold on to my money.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by flybynight » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:47 pm

Buy one and if the ATF changes their minds..... sell it :wink:
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:30 pm

I see what you're saying about it NOT being a shotgun, which would mean it COULD fall under DD.

But here's the thing, the DD is more about the seller and manufacturer. You as a buyer, would have more protections as opposed to Mossberg and the FFL that sold it.

Secondly, the 590 "firearm" shoots shotgun ammo, even if it is not a shotgun by law. DD also covers ammo and the types of ammo "as defined by the Secretary" and shotgun ammo is good-to-go.

So maybe if you mill out explosive tip shotgun ammo or armor piercing 12 gauge, you're screwed. But standard shotty ammoshould be good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:51 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:I see what you're saying about it NOT being a shotgun, which would mean it COULD fall under DD.

But here's the thing, the DD is more about the seller and manufacturer. You as a buyer, would have more protections as opposed to Mossberg and the FFL that sold it.
can you sight a source for this, i have never heard that before.
JeeperCreeper wrote: Secondly, the 590 "firearm" shoots shotgun ammo, even if it is not a shotgun by law. DD also covers ammo and the types of ammo "as defined by the Secretary" and shotgun ammo is good-to-go.

So maybe if you mill out explosive tip shotgun ammo or armor piercing 12 gauge, you're screwed. But standard shotty ammoshould be good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
ammo type doesn't matter, the issue is the bore over half an inch.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:24 pm

emclean wrote:
JeeperCreeper wrote:I see what you're saying about it NOT being a shotgun, which would mean it COULD fall under DD.

But here's the thing, the DD is more about the seller and manufacturer. You as a buyer, would have more protections as opposed to Mossberg and the FFL that sold it.
can you sight a source for this, i have never heard that before.
JeeperCreeper wrote: Secondly, the 590 "firearm" shoots shotgun ammo, even if it is not a shotgun by law. DD also covers ammo and the types of ammo "as defined by the Secretary" and shotgun ammo is good-to-go.

So maybe if you mill out explosive tip shotgun ammo or armor piercing 12 gauge, you're screwed. But standard shotty ammoshould be good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device
ammo type doesn't matter, the issue is the bore over half an inch.
1. I have no source, it's just what I gather from experience. I'm saying, Mossberg wouldn't have gotten it approved for sale, and an FFL wouldn't be able to sell it. If you legally bought a firearm from an FFL that is from a manufacturer (basically barring private sales or home-brew stuff), the Manufacturer and the FFL will have issues before you. Look at the issue with the Galil from last year when the ATF ruled that they violated the 3 hole receiver basically selling legal machine guns... ATF went after IWI as opposed to the consumer who legally purchased (yes, purchasers had to turn in their guns for a refund, but were not prosecuted).

Consumers always have more protection over manufacturers/vendors/businesses in the USA.

2. Look at 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f) Part (2)... And I quote: "except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;".

Notice, it is an "or" not an "and"


Also note, I'm not a lawyer, but if the ATF approved the gun for sale from Mossberg, then it is safe to purchase. You may not be able to modify it, but buying is fine. Guns and products, from what I understand, need to be approved by the ATF's technical branch from manufacturers before public sale. I tried looking up ATF statutes on that, but it took too long and I don't think it is necessary.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:59 am

1. I have no source, it's just what I gather from experience.
OTOH the ATF ordered people with adkins accelerators to turn in the springs cause they suddenly has machine guns.
2. Look at 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f) Part (2)... And I quote: "except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;".
it isn't quite that simple. the ATF has found flare launcher inserts to be NFA, including the ones that use shotgun shells.

Mossberg repeatedly recommended I ask the ATF, so I did. I will post when I get an answer.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:01 am

Yeah I wanna know what Uncle ATF says, because I would call it a DD if I were the governing body... but I would assume that Mossberg did their homework and the ATF approved it.

Or, just get a Shotty with the 18.5 barrel and not worry about it... plus save a few hundred bucks.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:26 pm

it still doesn't make any sence to me, but here is what the ATF said.
emcean:

This email is in response to your recent email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB). You are seeking information about a pistol grip shotgun with a fourteen inch barrel sold by Mossberg. You wish to know if this firearm is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(5), defines the term “shotgun” as—
“…a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.”

Also, the NFA defines “firearm,” in part, as—
“…a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length….” (See 26 U.S.C.
Section 5845(a)(1).)

The NFA defines an “any other weapon” as
“…any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.” (See 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).).

The National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Section 5845(f), defines “destructive device to include “any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.…”

Barrel length is relevant only in regard to rifles and shotguns. Firearms of the type described above that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of a buttstock, a smoothbore barrel and have an overall length of 26 inches or more are not “shotguns” as defined by the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act as they are not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Barrel length is only of concern in this type of firearm to the extent that it constitutes a portion of the overall length of the firearm.

Since the overall length of the firearm being produced by Mossberg remains 26 inches or longer it does not meet the definition of a “any other weapon” as defined in the NFA.

These firearms have traditionally been exempted from the definition of destructive device as they have been deemed to have a sporting purpose.

In conclusion, the firearm in question in its factory produced configuration (14 inch barrel and overall length of 26 inches or more) is not regulated under the NFA in any way. It would be regulated as a “firearm’ as such is defined in the GCA.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Michael S Knapp
Firearms Enforcement Specialist
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms and Explosives Industry Division
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
apparently it is a shotgun with sporting purposes, and not a shotgun cause it has a 26' OAL, but no stock.

It ain't logic, it's law.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by jor-el » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:11 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:Yeah I wanna know what Uncle ATF says, because I would call it a DD if I were the governing body... but I would assume that Mossberg did their homework and the ATF approved it.

Or, just get a Shotty with the 18.5 barrel and not worry about it... plus save a few hundred bucks.
You are most certainly NOT the governing body. Guess who is.

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Maybe you heard about this White Paper. http://www.guns.com/2017/02/07/how-could-atf/

Maybe you've heard of Brian Terry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

The current regime at the ATF knows the chickens are coming home to roost.
Nearly everyone involved with Project Gunrunner is still gainfully employed but hidden at ATF.
The author of the white paper, the current acting director, has been a field agent since before Operation Fast And Furious.
I would not trust the word of any ATF agent employed during that time period, especially since the active attorney general at the time, Eric Holder, was held in contempt of Congress over 1300 pages of documentation that was never released for congressional review. Holder and the entire ATF staff skated when the POTUS of that period invoked executive privilege regarding those documents. GEE, WONDER WHY?
The new administration should be highly suspicious of the entire organization. Considering what the new POTUS is doing to the EPA and DOE, I really don't see why the BATFE shouldn't be totally crushed and have their budget slashed to ZERO. While they're at it, try to find those 1300 docs assuming they haven't been shredded yet.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:15 am

emclean wrote:it still doesn't make any sence to me, but here is what the ATF said.
emcean:

This email is in response to your recent email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB). You are seeking information about a pistol grip shotgun with a fourteen inch barrel sold by Mossberg. You wish to know if this firearm is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(5), defines the term “shotgun” as—
“…a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.”

Also, the NFA defines “firearm,” in part, as—
“…a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length….” (See 26 U.S.C.
Section 5845(a)(1).)

The NFA defines an “any other weapon” as
“…any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.” (See 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).).

The National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Section 5845(f), defines “destructive device to include “any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.…

Barrel length is relevant only in regard to rifles and shotguns. Firearms of the type described above that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of a buttstock, a smoothbore barrel and have an overall length of 26 inches or more are not “shotguns” as defined by the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act as they are not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Barrel length is only of concern in this type of firearm to the extent that it constitutes a portion of the overall length of the firearm.

Since the overall length of the firearm being produced by Mossberg remains 26 inches or longer it does not meet the definition of a “any other weapon” as defined in the NFA.

These firearms have traditionally been exempted from the definition of destructive device as they have been deemed to have a sporting purpose.

In conclusion, the firearm in question in its factory produced configuration (14 inch barrel and overall length of 26 inches or more) is not regulated under the NFA in any way. It would be regulated as a “firearm’ as such is defined in the GCA.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Michael S Knapp
Firearms Enforcement Specialist
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms and Explosives Industry Division
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
apparently it is a shotgun with sporting purposes, and not a shotgun cause it has a 26' OAL, but no stock.

It ain't logic, it's law.
It is a firearm with a sporting purpose that happens to fire shotgun shells that the secretary has found to have sporting purpose, but it is not a shotgun or short-barreled shotgun or AoW because it does not have a stock and is over the minimum required length. The law is logical, you just skipped over an important distinction.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by 91Eunozs » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:26 pm

Despite Jor-El's rather insightful warning, and Doc's straight to the point analysis, all of a sudden I feel a need to buy one of these. No need or use for one, but now I kind of want one.

My inner cynic is shouting in my ear:

Image

I can totally see some group of BATFE bureaucrats sitting around a table in a conference room and one pops up saying "hey, I have a great idea" and then setting up a scenario to get what would otherwise be defined as DDs into people's hands. Then using any misuse (it's the weapon, not the person using it of course) as an example of how we need stiffer controls on all firearms.

I think the election results threw everything sideways though and we'll see how long this ruling lasts.

I'll leave it at that...probably already too political and happy to take this down if the mods think it's too close to the edge.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Snyper708 » Wed May 17, 2017 7:06 pm

If ATF changes their mind, just install a full sized stock and you have an ordinary shotgun.
I personally see no practical use for the Shockwave anyway

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Wed May 17, 2017 7:18 pm

Snyper708 wrote:If ATF changes their mind, just install a full sized stock and you have an ordinary shotgun.
I personally see no practical use for the Shockwave anyway
it has a 14' bbl, so with a stock it is a SBS.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by NT2C » Wed May 17, 2017 8:00 pm

From the Mossberg site:
Classification of the 590 Shockwave

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives has confirmed the 590 Shockwave as a “firearm” per the Gun Control Act (GCA), but not a Class 3/NFA firearm. Click here to read a copy of the letter from the BATFE regarding federal classification of the Shockwave, dated 3/2/2017). NOTE: This letter only speaks to its FEDERAL status. There could be local/state laws that prohibit the sale of this gun in your state. Consult your State Police for clarification. Just as with any other pistol grip firearm, the buyer must be 21 years of age, and be a resident of the state where s/he is purchasing it.
LINK to page
LINK to BATFE letter
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Thu May 18, 2017 6:53 am

a "firearm" with a bore over .5 inch is a Destructive Device.

all it is going to take is the ATF tech branch to change their mind (like they have done a couple of times with pistol braces) and they become NFA over night. none of the opinion letter have force of law, and can be changed with the next letter.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by ROCK6 » Sat May 20, 2017 6:58 am

emclean wrote:a "firearm" with a bore over .5 inch is a Destructive Device.

all it is going to take is the ATF tech branch to change their mind (like they have done a couple of times with pistol braces) and they become NFA over night. none of the opinion letter have force of law, and can be changed with the next letter.
Did you read 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(4): DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE and 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f)(2): DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE?
(f) Destructive device.--The term “destructive device” means * * * (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; . . .”
That could happen with the wrong anti-gun crowd in congress and a pro-gun control administration. They could just as easily redefine the definition of "destructive device", and your AR pistols and rifles could just as easily get deemed NFA overnight with how the Secretary "generally" sees the device or its use in question. The more "evil" guns in the hands of the 'people' makes regulation enforcement much harder and less hazardous for bureaucrats.

Seriously, it's legal now. If the mood changes, I would just register it and have an SBS (still planning to anyways). I recently received mine. It's intriguing and with dedicated practice, could make a handy close-quarters self-defense tool. I do think it would be far more effective with a stock and plan to register it in the future anyways.

So, you can decide to live in fear of how these things "might" play out, or you can continue to arm, train and support the proliferation of firearms through purchases and your vote towards pro-gun representatives and laws...keeping the anti-gun crowd in fear and off-balance with their ideological agenda.

ROCK6

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Sat May 20, 2017 7:42 am

but it dose not need an act of congress to change. the shockwave is non-NFA cause someone at the tech branch decided it wasn't.
i can think of 3 cases where teh tech branch changed their minds in the last 10 years. (Adkins accelerator, the SIG arms brace, and suppressor wipes)
so what in the history of the ATF makes you think that they won't change their mind again?

also as you pointed out if " the Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes" also means that if they decide that it isn't suitable for sporting purposes it is a DD. once again congress not needed.

and you will not be able to "just register it" if they change their mind, that would leave you on possession of a unregistered NFA item till you got the stamp back from the ATF.
So, you can decide to live in fear of how these things "might" play out, or you can continue to arm,
or you can look to what has happened, and read teh letter of the law and just follow that so i wont have to worry trying to get a tax stamp quickly before the deadline set be a bureaucrat.


you money, not mine, i just still don't comprehend how it is legal with the way the NFA is written. [and possibly have trust issues]

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jor-el
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by jor-el » Sun May 21, 2017 1:44 am

If they end up selling even a half million of these in the next 4-8 years, good luck trying to make that many owners give them up, let alone tax or register them nationwide. When every Tom, Dick and Harry has one in the trunk or next to the nightstand it will be real hard to make them disappear.

I think both gun owners as well as manufacturers are wise to government tactics, and the NRA and other advocacy groups might not let this one go. The NFA was passed in the belief it would control crime; that's debatable in a time where the federal government itself is accused of arming criminals to achieve a political goal.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

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Stercutus
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Stercutus » Sun May 21, 2017 7:58 am

I don't get it. What's it for?
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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