Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

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Better system for 12GA hi-cap pump?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:27 pm

Detachable mag - Tap, Rack, BOOM!
2
22%
Two tubes - Combat Evolved.
3
33%
They're both stupid. 6-8 shells is enough.
4
44%
 
Total votes: 9

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Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by Abuhin » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:27 pm

This was brought up in the "22 detachable magazine vs. tube magazine" thread, but no one ever followed through. So I thought I'd make a poll.
Mostly for fun, ok? This isn't a "what should I buy" thread.

When it comes to shotguns that can load over 10, or reload 5 in a few seconds, what would you prefer?

A pump shotgun with a detachable magazine like the Grizzly or "Sidewinder Venom" kit?

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Or two side-by-side tube magazines like the KSG & UTS-15?



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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:27 pm

I wouldn't have either. There are some real negatives to both designs. Cost being only the most obvious. One of the most useful assets regarding a shotgun is it's versatility. It really is a jack of all trades. Those detachable mag fed shotguns seem to be finicky with ammo. The soft plastic shells bend and warp when compressed in a magazine this causes feeding issues. You can mitigate this by loading less shells but then what was the point of switching to mag fed. I think the Russians who mainly use these shotguns use shotgun ammo which has coated cardboard shells to prevent this. You could probably do this if you are a handy person but it's gonna take some time. As for the side by side tube, I only know of two platforms these were used on. One is the Keltec and the other is an older model that was a South African design. I could change my mind as I have no firsthand experience with either but while it is interesting l have to wonder about complexity and reliability.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:33 pm

Found the South African shotgun it's called a Neostead 2000. The barrel sits below the twin feeding tubes.

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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by raptor » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:28 pm

When I first saw the Kel Tec shotgun I wanted one. However, after handling one I found the bullpup design awkward to use as a pump.That is a personal preference and in no way meant to disparage the shotgun. YMMV

I would prefer my 870 with an extended tube to either design.

If I had to take one or the other I would prefer the 2 mag design over the detachable mag.
Last edited by raptor on Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by quazi » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:35 pm

Didn't Keltec just announce a longer barreled version of the KSG that holds 25 2.75" shells?

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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:26 pm

Only a purpose built DBM shotgun makes sense (saiga etc), the aftermarket conversions use lots of proprietary parts and mostly have very low capacity for a lot of added weight.

there is actually several dual tube shotguns on the market now, I believe there is a DP-12 as well as the Keltec and UTS-15 in the OP. If it is a range toy, the one that makes you feel the most like Masterchief is the correct answer.

The Twizzler wrote:One of the most useful assets regarding a shotgun is it's versatility. It really is a jack of all trades.
I know the whole internet has gone around about this a thousand times, but how can any gun effectively limited to 50yds be called versatile? I've asked that question a lot and never got a good answer, it really just sounds like changing the definition of versatility to fit the desired answer.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by JFire » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:18 pm

quazi wrote:Didn't Keltec just announce a longer barreled version of the KSG that holds 25 2.75" shells?
Yes its called ksg-22 or 25. Long as hell. The number denotes capacity i believe.

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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:44 pm

quazi wrote:Didn't Keltec just announce a longer barreled version of the KSG that holds 25 2.75" shells?





RonnyRonin wrote:
The Twizzler wrote:One of the most useful assets regarding a shotgun is it's versatility. It really is a jack of all trades.
I know the whole internet has gone around about this a thousand times, but how can any gun effectively limited to 50yds be called versatile? I've asked that question a lot and never got a good answer, it really just sounds like changing the definition of versatility to fit the desired answer.

I posted in another thread. Basically, people who think the shotgun is versatile say "oh look! You can put different shot and chokes in for different sized game and if you need to shoot far you can use slugs." These people are correct. Within 20-50 yards, depending on chokes, shot sizes, and game, they have a great weapon until it runs dry. Past 50 yards they do have a gun that can put hurt down, but it is a slow firing, heavy recoiling, low capacity, slow to reload, comparatively inaccurate rifle.

Within 10 yards a shotgun is basically a slug gun and is "a slow firing, heavy recoiling, low capacity, slow to reload, comparatively inaccurate rifle."

Compensating for the rainbow trajectory is still a challenge for me and has caused me to miss about 4 deer. In fact, I have never killed a deer with a shotgun but within the same amount of time I killed 3, maybe 4 deer with my AK.

For SHTF I say go with a rifle. But if someone lives in a state with rifle restrictions a shotgun can be made to work good enough. It is simply not a better choice than a fighting rifle unless one is shooting birds out of the air. Even then, I suspect a little practice would allow one to shoot birds on the wing with a fighting rifle.

Lastly, shotguns are cool. There is no avoiding that. They are so cool. I want one bad. I sold my 20 ga single shot and miss it. But what I really want is a fighting shotgun for the car. I suspect an AR pistol would be better, for all the reasons mentioned above. Oh well, I'll figure it out another day.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:20 pm

I guess you never heard the rest of that phrase.
Jack of all trades, Master of none.
First a shotgun is way more effective than just 50 or 100 yards. What makes it versatile is that I can effectively hunt small game, birds, and medium size game. I can defend myself from all threats to be found on the North American continent. I can do this for under 200 dollars and with ammo that is both plentiful, cheap, and can be tailored to almost any circumstance.

Think about it this way. I could hunt quail one day, defend myself from a grizzly bear the next, go duck hunting on day three, target shooting on day four, defend my home from people with bad motives on day 5.
Show me a rifle that can do all of that
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:44 pm

The Twizzler wrote:I guess you never heard the rest of that phrase.
Jack of all trades, Master of none.
First a shotgun is way more effective than just 50 or 100 yards. What makes it versatile is that I can effectively hunt small game, birds, and medium size game. I can defend myself from all threats to be found on the North American continent. I can do this for under 200 dollars and with ammo that is both plentiful, cheap, and can be tailored to almost any circumstance.

Think about it this way. I could hunt quail one day, defend myself from a grizzly bear the next, go duck hunting on day three, target shooting on day four, defend my home from people with bad motives on day 5.
Show me a rifle that can do all of that

Image

The above picture is a Ruger 96 in 22 WMR, I believe. A .22 will do all you talked about, and do it cheaper than a shotgun. And yes, a .22 will kill a bear. The gunsmith who lives by my parent's house has a trophy set up with 3 .22 WMR rounds. One was fired and killed the black bear. The skull is there to prove it. The other 2 sit ready to be fired. A .22 LR is not as capable as a .22 WMR, but still a capable enough round.

A SKS will do all that you listed and more. It will also do it at longer ranges. It will also be cheaper. Yes, we can pick up #8 birdshot loads for $.25/rnd at Walmart. But buckshot and slugs, and really every specialty round I can remember, comes in at $.50-$2.00 a round. 7.62x39 in soft point is a much cheaper way of taking deer. So stocking deep is easier with a rifle. It is even easier with .223, but those rifles tend to cost a bit more than an SKS.

In my experience, most shotguns sell for around $350 to $450. This is well within SKS range. Yes, shotguns can be had new for closer to $200, but I don't see many for sale, and I don't see many people using them. The exception seems to be the Maverick series, but most people I know prefer to pay the extra and get a Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. That just seems to be the way it is. Also, the cost of a shotgun starts going up when looking at getting different chokes and barrels to allow it to do all the different things you mentioned. ($15-$40 for each choke tube, and $100 for each barrel).

Buying cheap and stacking deep is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun. Killing small, medium, and large game is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun (I have shot running rabbits with a bolt action .22, so even fast game is possible with a rifle, but it usually takes me a few rounds). Shooting game when it is sitting still is the best bet, though only where legal. Target shooting can be done cheaper with a rifle than with a shotgun. Defending the homestead is more easily done with a rifle than with a shotgun, though I'd rather a 18 inch riot gun than a 24 inch barreled scoped varmint gun for home defense.

Also, the rifle is often faster to reload, is always longer range, and often enough more powerful. The ammo is lighter and smaller, and this allows more to be packed into a specific space or carried from point to point. 7.62x39 and .22LR are particularly less expensive than shotgun ammo, especially for hunting applications. The shotgun is usually slower to get multiple shots off than a rifle because of heavier recoil. This is especially true when using slugs in a shotgun.

Honestly, if I were on a budget and wanted a "do-all" gun for SHTF I'd buy a SKS and leave it stock/bare bones. It would be close in initial price and in the long run be cheaper to find and stock ammo for. It would be even MORE versatile than any shotgun and longer range and faster to reload.

But that is me. My opinions are only worth what you paid for them. The Patriots won the Super Bowl and now it is time for me to call it a night and hope tomorrow brings better things.


Just to make the point that a rifle, where legal, can be used to shoot birds, I'll post a video of kids shooting clays out of the air with a .22.

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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by flybynight » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:26 am

woodsghost wrote:
The Twizzler wrote:I guess you never heard the rest of that phrase.
Jack of all trades, Master of none.
First a shotgun is way more effective than just 50 or 100 yards. What makes it versatile is that I can effectively hunt small game, birds, and medium size game. I can defend myself from all threats to be found on the North American continent. I can do this for under 200 dollars and with ammo that is both plentiful, cheap, and can be tailored to almost any circumstance.

Think about it this way. I could hunt quail one day, defend myself from a grizzly bear the next, go duck hunting on day three, target shooting on day four, defend my home from people with bad motives on day 5.
Show me a rifle that can do all of that

Image

The above picture is a Ruger 96 in 22 WMR, I believe. A .22 will do all you talked about, and do it cheaper than a shotgun. And yes, a .22 will kill a bear. The gunsmith who lives by my parent's house has a trophy set up with 3 .22 WMR rounds. One was fired and killed the black bear. The skull is there to prove it. The other 2 sit ready to be fired. A .22 LR is not as capable as a .22 WMR, but still a capable enough round.

A SKS will do all that you listed and more. It will also do it at longer ranges. It will also be cheaper. Yes, we can pick up #8 birdshot loads for $.25/rnd at Walmart. But buckshot and slugs, and really every specialty round I can remember, comes in at $.50-$2.00 a round. 7.62x39 in soft point is a much cheaper way of taking deer. So stocking deep is easier with a rifle. It is even easier with .223, but those rifles tend to cost a bit more than an SKS.

In my experience, most shotguns sell for around $350 to $450. This is well within SKS range. Yes, shotguns can be had new for closer to $200, but I don't see many for sale, and I don't see many people using them. The exception seems to be the Maverick series, but most people I know prefer to pay the extra and get a Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. That just seems to be the way it is. Also, the cost of a shotgun starts going up when looking at getting different chokes and barrels to allow it to do all the different things you mentioned. ($15-$40 for each choke tube, and $100 for each barrel).

Buying cheap and stacking deep is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun. Killing small, medium, and large game is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun (I have shot running rabbits with a bolt action .22, so even fast game is possible with a rifle, but it usually takes me a few rounds). Shooting game when it is sitting still is the best bet, though only where legal. Target shooting can be done cheaper with a rifle than with a shotgun. Defending the homestead is more easily done with a rifle than with a shotgun, though I'd rather a 18 inch riot gun than a 24 inch barreled scoped varmint gun for home defense.

Also, the rifle is often faster to reload, is always longer range, and often enough more powerful. The ammo is lighter and smaller, and this allows more to be packed into a specific space or carried from point to point. 7.62x39 and .22LR are particularly less expensive than shotgun ammo, especially for hunting applications. The shotgun is usually slower to get multiple shots off than a rifle because of heavier recoil. This is especially true when using slugs in a shotgun.

Honestly, if I were on a budget and wanted a "do-all" gun for SHTF I'd buy a SKS and leave it stock/bare bones. It would be close in initial price and in the long run be cheaper to find and stock ammo for. It would be even MORE versatile than any shotgun and longer range and faster to reload.

But that is me. My opinions are only worth what you paid for them. The Patriots won the Super Bowl and now it is time for me to call it a night and hope tomorrow brings better things.


Just to make the point that a rifle, where legal, can be used to shoot birds, I'll post a video of kids shooting clays out of the air with a .22.

Well that's the beauty of freedom of choice. You can blast away with your sks for cheaper while I dine on quail. :awesome:
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:30 am

If you can shoot quail out of the air mid flight with a rifle I would love to see it. I am betting you can't. If you can shoot ducks out of the air with an SKS I would love to see it. If you can kill a grizzly bear with a 22wmr I would love to see it. These can be done but lets be honest you could do those things with a Bow and Arrow it's just very unlikely. I don't think many guides in Alaska use any of those guns listed for bear defense. Some, actually do use a shot gun. I don't know of any bird hunters that use a rifle. I can't speak to where you live but I see sub 200 dollar shotguns at every gun store and pawn store I walk in.

I used one gun in my example capable of doing all these things. I don't have to buy extra barrels or chokes they just make things easier.

You used 3 guns in your example to preform said tasks.

Oh and the Patriots got stomped. amazingly won. :oh:
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:41 am

Quail compared to chickens. Remember, you said in flight with a rifle.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:10 am

flybynight wrote:Well that's the beauty of freedom of choice. You can blast away with your sks for cheaper while I dine on quail. :awesome:
Very true. :clap:

If I"m coming across as somehow hating shotguns or thinking those who prefer them are idiots, then I apologize. I really do like shotguns. I just take issue with the claim they are the most versatile weapon. I do think they are versatile in a hunting context and are basically the minivan of the gun world. My other point is that everything the shotgun does, the rifle can also do. Some of those tasks are easier with the shotgun, some are easier with the rifle.

Again, I have no problem with somebody choosing a shotgun for their "one gun" in the home, or choosing to walk into a SHTF with the shotgun. Just as long as they understand the drawbacks as well as the benefits. I feel the same way about those who choose to have a rifle and pistol as their only gun options.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:19 pm

On further thought, I probably sounded a little to aggressive. My apologies. It's all in good fun. :D
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:59 am

The Twizzler wrote:I guess you never heard the rest of that phrase.
Jack of all trades, Master of none.
First a shotgun is way more effective than just 50 or 100 yards. What makes it versatile is that I can effectively hunt small game, birds, and medium size game. I can defend myself from all threats to be found on the North American continent. I can do this for under 200 dollars and with ammo that is both plentiful, cheap, and can be tailored to almost any circumstance.

Think about it this way. I could hunt quail one day, defend myself from a grizzly bear the next, go duck hunting on day three, target shooting on day four, defend my home from people with bad motives on day 5.
Show me a rifle that can do all of that
Why would I accept "master of none" instead of "master of most?"

As woodsghost wrote with much more effort then I can muster, any number of rifles can fill all the roles you mention and many more besides. Bird on the wing being the one caveat, I'll give you that one, but "good at shooting bird on the wing" is still a far cry from "jack of all trades," and outside of sporting purposes seems difficult to argue is terribly important.

It still seems as if there are several hypothetical shotguns being lumped together, the shotgun that you want to hunt ducks with is not the same shotgun you would want to use for home defense, is that the same shotgun you would want for bear defense, is not the same shotgun you would want to hunt medium sized game at range with. Shotgun proponents usually seem to imagine a whole battery of shotguns for their argument, some with long barrels and chokes, some with rifled barrels and scopes, some with beads, some with ghost rings, some with short barrels and long tubes, some with hunting limited tubes.
If you fall back on the ability to swap barrels for the argument, then you are still bested handily by a Thompson contender or a lowly AR receiver. If you stand fast in one shotgun being able to do everything you are obviously making huge compromises in several areas and are open to any ridiculous anecdote of some .22 somewhere that did one of those things sometime. You can make an argument for nearly any gun being able to do all those things, but without requiring that it be a good/reasonable/sane/responsible choice for said things there is no bar by which to measure anything.


how far do you accurately shoot your shotgun? What is your acceptable level of accuracy? what is the furthest range you have taken game with it? I've throw slugs at 100yds with very poor success. Most of the reliable accuracy numbers I can dig up sound irresponsible at best and dangerous at worst at 100yds and beyond, barring specialized guns. It is possible your shotgun patterns quite tightly at range, but the samples I have taken and anecdotes I have researched point to this being true unless we disagree significantly on the definition of "effective."

How tight is your shot pattern at 50yds? Once again the shotgun that can throw a nice tight pattern is certainly not typically the one that can throw slugs accurately, and usually not one touted for defensive use. When I finally started measuring the patterns on my shotguns and pacing it out I was shocked at how close the effect mimicked firing a .380 blindfolded. Once again, your shotgun could very well be quite different then mine, or my standards could be wildly different, but projectiles not hitting where I want them too just never seems like a good thing to me.

I'm sure regionality plays into our perspectives as well, I've just quite simply never lived anywhere where game could be taken more easily with a shotgun then with any crappy rimfire or centerfire that you could dig up, its likely to be different other places (where perhaps quail are the only thing to eat?) but its just outside my realm of experience.

When taken in the context of region hunting laws, shotguns are sometimes the very best choice one could make, but keep in mind many of these hunting laws are made with the express purpose of limiting the effectiveness of the hunter.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by wamba » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:50 pm

Sticking with the question in the OP (Not that I don't have views on rifle vs shotgun :wink: ) I voted for tubes. First I'm assuming that they will have loading gates comparable to traditional tube fed shotguns. That's what I'm used to and am capable of topping off without looking between shots. Second in my limited experience (wife's Saiga 12) mag fed shotguns not only are hard on the plastic shells when left loaded but the weight of 10 rounds below the action seems to affect the balance.

Maybe more exposure to a variety of mag fed along with practice would change my mind. But as it stands I'll stick with tube fed for my shotguns.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by Abuhin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:05 am

Necro-ing my thread because I found out both Remington and Mossberg are making box mag pumps.





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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by Asymetryczna » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:18 am

I’d vote for one extended tube. It’s what I use on a Remington 870. I think that was the OP’s question.
It's what I own, know and feel comfortable with.

The rifle or shotgun, choose only 1, thread is probably elsewhere.

One of the reasons the “BEST” and “ONLY 1” debates continue to be posed, argued and debated, to surface and resurface is that they are largely rhetorical. Couple this with the need to defend one’s purchase and you have an endless topic for any place gun enthusiasts, hunters or shooters gather. Let an actor carry one on the TeeVee and suddenly more and more people think they have the panacea for their need. Let something new surface and it must be better, right? The only right answer is the one you favor.

I have been on a few dove hunts where people would have preferred their 12g to be box fed though.
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Re: Tacticool pump shotty - box mag vs dual tube?

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:47 pm

I bought a KSG last year. That brings the total number of shotguns I own to three. One of the three hasn't been shot in this decade.

The KSG aside from it's versatility offers the advantage of being 50 state legal as well. Many of my rifles are not 50 state legal.

Accuracy at 100 yards with slugs is minute of sporting clay. In fact it will hit a stationary clay practically every time. This is more than enough to hunt large game at close range if I ever had to. I'd rather not have to, that is what rifles are for.


It would be nightmare to run in combat either the state sanctioned kind or the personal kind. When one tube runs out of shells you have to shuck out the last shell and then likely fire on an empty chamber, switch magazines with a switch located in awkward position and then charge the weapon again before it will fire. This may be faster than fully reloading a tube on an 870 but it is time consuming and can't be done in the prone easily, in fact shooting a KSG in the prone is a crazy (and painful) art form best avoided. Most tactical training proscribes reloading an 870 fully and instead urges topping off the shotgun when appropriate while keeping your gun on target. This is near impossible to do while keeping your gun on target with a KSG. Once you run both tubes dry then reloading is a mess as well and much slower than with say an 870, even if you are just loading one tube.

A box magazine is much faster and better. That said box magazines are clownshoes ridonkulous in any kind of tactical environment due to their size, often poor reliability and several other issues such as how to carry ginormous magazines.


When I first saw the Kel Tec shotgun I wanted one. However, after handling one I found the bullpup design awkward to use as a pump.
Most people find a foregrip fixes this problem. Strength is also an issue. The new KSGs have about a 20-25lb force to overcome to cycle and feels like it is full of sand. My first day at the range with it after about 150 rounds My right shoulder and left arm were pretty sore. I opened it up and cut loose with a dremel on anything that was either rough or looked draggy. When I put it back together the charging force had dropped by about half to around 10lbs and while not as smooth running as an 870 it was acceptable.

I don't recommend this anyone that doesen't know exactly what they are doing.

So back to KSG vs Saiga. I picked the KSG but only for a particular niche. That is traveling around the country with a self defense and general all purpose gun when better choices are not available. Also because well.... Star Wars Blaster.

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You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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