Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

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Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:50 am

I've been a die hard AR fan for many years. Since immigrating to the US, in fact. I've always stocked .223, .308, 9mm and .22...
Looking at what I use the AR for, I realized I just use it on the range! I don't really hunt with it (I know I can...Have taken plenty impala with .223) and most of the time the rifles sit in the safe!
So why not ditch the caliber and AR's?
So I started scaling back. I will keep 1 AR in .223 and 10 loaded mags, but the rest are being liquidated.
Replacement? Oh yeah baby! Going back to my roots. FAL all the way. Looking at a DSA 18" with fixed stock and a few kits, maybe a Rhodie and a para down the road. Now I'll only purchase .308, 9mm, 22lr and some 12ga! Woooohoooooooo.
So, anyone else have nuggets of wisdom regard FAL'S they want to drop?
I've heard problems about FAL and steel cased ammo. What gives? I ran some pretty crappy stuff through the R1 we had on he farm and it never choked.
Anyone run super heavy bullets with gas turned off for a subsonic plink?
How does it handle the 220gr stuff accuracy wise?

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by zantra » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:43 am

So what will you do with the FAL, hmm? Do you have a shooting timer? Sound suppressor, .22lr unit for the AR? Do you compete in combat rifle matches? When you get those things and those skills, you'll see no reason to bother with the FAL, I promise you. A 3006 Remington 748, maybe, if you actually hunt bigger critters than deer. However, that's quite rare, and it's for a very few days of the year, just one day, per species, actually, if you are any good.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by emclean » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:00 pm

I have a DSA FAL, and haven had any problems with steel cased ammo so far
granted I have had it less than a year so far.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by fatty21 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:11 pm

All things considered, just remember the source. And that is more so the indian than the arrow. :)

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:39 pm

zantra wrote:So what will you do with the FAL, hmm? Do you have a shooting timer? Sound suppressor, .22lr unit for the AR? Do you compete in combat rifle matches? When you get those things and those skills, you'll see no reason to bother with the FAL, I promise you. A 3006 Remington 748, maybe, if you actually hunt bigger critters than deer. However, that's quite rare, and it's for a very few days of the year, just one day, per species, actually, if you are any good.
Well, this being geared towards survival and me having experienced the situation where I had a pistol and the badguy had an AK in a society with very little order, I'd like to have the hardest hitting round I can effectively fire. Thus, FAL in 7.62x51.
I have a savage and Cz bold action in .308, so I can just keep purchasing 308 ammo.
I have paperwork pending for a form1 can, so it would be great to use that on a FAL with that nice adjustable gas system.
There's not much an AR can do that a FAL can't do, but you'll always be limited in power with the AR...When you go to the real heavy hitters, you run into capacity, mag, supply issues.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:16 pm

I like the lego-factor on ARs, they are a blast on the range, accurate, and reliable.

But... I get the appeal of the .308. I myself like the 7.62x39.

I do find the 5.56/.223 lacking in a lot of cases. If I wouldn't use it for deer, I'd be concerned about it's power... but I guess that's where the 30 round mag comes in.

I really want an FAL... or a PTR G3 clone... or an M1A... but I really want an AK variant in 308
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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:23 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:I like the lego-factor on ARs, they are a blast on the range, accurate, and reliable.

But... I get the appeal of the .308. I myself like the 7.62x39.

I do find the 5.56/.223 lacking in a lot of cases. If I wouldn't use it for deer, I'd be concerned about it's power... but I guess that's where the 30 round mag comes in.

I really want an FAL... or a PTR G3 clone... or an M1A... but I really want an AK variant in 308
I think Classic Firearms still has a couple Vepr rifles in .308, Creeper.

As for hunting deer with an AR, I think in most states you're limited to a five round magazine.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:33 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote: I think Classic Firearms still has a couple Vepr rifles in .308, Creeper.

As for hunting deer with an AR, I think in most states you're limited to a five round magazine.

Yeah, I've looked at them, but I don't have money in the budget for one just yet. It's in my 3 year plan hahaha.

And I meant that the .223 is under-powered for hunting deer, but the 30 round mag makes up for the weakness in combat or defensive situations. Sorry, I worded that poorly.

Delarey, I've heard great things about DSA FALs. When you say "back to your roots", did you use one in service? I wanna know what those bad boys are like to shoot full auto hahaha
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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:51 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote: I think Classic Firearms still has a couple Vepr rifles in .308, Creeper.

As for hunting deer with an AR, I think in most states you're limited to a five round magazine.

Yeah, I've looked at them, but I don't have money in the budget for one just yet. It's in my 3 year plan hahaha.

And I meant that the .223 is under-powered for hunting deer, but the 30 round mag makes up for the weakness in combat or defensive situations. Sorry, I worded that poorly.

Delarey, I've heard great things about DSA FALs. When you say "back to your roots", did you use one in service? I wanna know what those bad boys are like to shoot full auto hahaha
No worries, Creeper. I kind of figured that's what you meant.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:52 pm

We had a FAL on the farm growing up. We carried either R1 (FAL) or R4(Galil) when doing "camps" in cadets...Being prepared for National Service (draft). That ended the year before I graduated, so I didn't see any real service, but went through boot camp a few times...And it sucked every.damn.time!

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:53 pm

I never shot the FAL on full auto, but rocked the hell out of the R4 many times and a few times, a MAG58 :)

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by JFire » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:55 pm

Why not just liquidate an extra AR and purchase a 308 upper for the AR you're keeping? Saves on accessorizing another rifle.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:57 pm

JFire wrote:Why not just liquidate an extra AR and purchase a 308 upper for the AR you're keeping? Saves on accessorizing another rifle.

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308 upper won't fit on a standard AR15 lower.


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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:56 pm

delarey wrote:So why not ditch the caliber and AR's?
Well popping targets from a bench is boring unless its at 1000m or something that is beyond your current skill level. Start doing 3 gun, taking classes, or moving targets, moving shot platforms at stationary targets, etc. Shooting from different elevations. Basically go outside the box. An AR in 223/556 is for defense not hunting anything more than varmints, so training on that platform should be for that use.

An AR plus lots of ammo weighs half of what you could carry with a FAL and its ammo. I can load out 14) 556 30rd mags. 6+6+2=420 rds. You can't do that with a FAL.

223/556 ammo costs less but the ballistics are almost identical to .308 for practice.

I can change a single AR to do multiple things or have multiple ARs to do multiple things. Just by changing the barrel length, rail attachments, optics, triggers, stocks, I can make it a long range PSR, all the way down to a PDW. And in so many different calibers including 762/308 [AR10]. And yes there are 5 rnd mags for AR. 100rnd mags too. Is there a 100 rnd mag for FAL?

So basically I would have one FAL, but multiple ARs. And the FAL would sit in the safe 'cause if I wanted to burn 762 I'd use an AR10 9 times out of 10.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:53 pm

Like I mentioned, I'll probably keep one AR. But I like the way you think. Get the FAL, but keep the AR's. Hmmmmm. Just to add, the AR I plan on keeping is one I'm currently building with a wylde chambered 5r barrel. So I'm not a complete noobie on the platform...
My main purpose with this idea is to consolidate my calibers that I actively stock up on, a bit. I found myself buying 8 different calibers at one point, because I felt I needed to have thousands of rounds for each caliber. I'd rather be proficient with one rifle. I've had more training on the FAL than on the AR. I don't plan on running with anything more than 6 mags if it came to that...10 if I'm feeling Rambo.
I've done marches with a 10 mag load out and a FAL and it sucked, but I do like the platform and shoot it just as well as the AR.
There is no doubt that the AR platform is more ergonomic and more versatile than the FAL. I just like the FAL more :)

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by zantra » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:13 am

when you choose the 308, you choose to not have a suppressor, which, if you have to forage or fight, is a VERY dumb thing to do. Having no flash at night, the option of subsonic 60 gr Aquila .22 ammo thru the conversion unit, the one handed use (as help a loved one walk, carry a kid, etc) the concealability in your pack (taken down) or even under a jacket, luminous sights, bad move to be without all that. Have enough sense to not be out and about in daylight, have night vision and soft armor, and you'll be 10x safer than anyone who is walking around in daylight hours, without a silencer, without armor, without ammo. :-) no matter who that person is or what rifle they have. The 308 means you can't carry more than half as much ammo, and all this "long range" and "shooting thru barriers stuff is a way to run out of ammo really fast! So is making all that noise and calling in every enemy within a mile or more! The extra weight and bulk of the large amount of 308 ammo you'll need (due to not having the can, not being able to re-supply as easily as 223, not having the .22 unit, not being able to conceal your rifle) will mean you have no energy left for wearing hot, heavy armor.

the shorty 223, using 60 gr nosler Partition softpoints, has the same power as a 4" .44 mag, at the muzzle. at 100 yds, the 223 still hits like a 6" 357 does at 10 ft. At 200 yds, the shorty 223 hits like a .45 acp 230 gr jhp does at 10 ft. At which distance would you rather have a failure to stop, eh? :-) the further away you are, the less you need an instant stop. A guy hit by a 223 aint gonna be any threat to you beyond 200m, man. He probably couldn't hit you at that distance, if you were head on prone, before you hit him. And why would you be standing up, stationary, hmm?

Most shots in combat miss the man entirely, and most hits are poor hits. A 223 sp to bicep, butt cheek, calf, etc, will do more damage than 308 ball will to the same area. It's sort of hard to just disregard a 3/4" wide hole in you, that's pumping out all your blood in a few seconds!

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by LowKey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:01 pm

No reason not to suppress a .308
It's not really that difficult to build a can for that caliber. Makes the .308 sound like a .22LR.


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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:22 pm

Suppressing a 308 is not an issue for me. I've done it before, I'll do it again once my papers clear.
You may have missed that I come from a place where we used FAL in combat until not too long ago and have first person stories of "terrs" being slotted right through tree trunks whit the FAL while their AK rounds couldn't get to our boys.
I don't think the 223 is under powered! I've personally hunted with a 223 and bagged quite a few antelope with it.
My discussion is about logistics. I'm trying to consolidate my rifle calibers to just one. There really isn't anything I can't hunt in my ao with a 308. If you spray and pray during a firefight, you are either so deep in it that you won't make it or badly trained...Or both. Covering fire only works when you are in a team and have resupply. If you aren't then make your shots count. Better yet, move at night. It is possible to move at night without nvg or flash lights...You just move slower. I've done all of the above except a rifle firefight. I've had to shoot in defense before, using pistols, so BTDT. Also had to travel across some pretty hostile country on foot with said pistol and a really heavy pack.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:50 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:I like the lego-factor on ARs, they are a blast on the range, accurate, and reliable.

But... I get the appeal of the .308. I myself like the 7.62x39.

I do find the 5.56/.223 lacking in a lot of cases. If I wouldn't use it for deer, I'd be concerned about it's power... but I guess that's where the 30 round mag comes in.

I really want an FAL... or a PTR G3 clone... or an M1A... but I really want an AK variant in 308

I know people back East who hunt whitetail with .223- but we're talking in the pine thickets where visibility and shots are well, well under 100 yards. I wouldn't try to take a large animal of any type with a .223 in an open, flat terrain.
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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:16 pm

The 223 with the right bullet is very capable...I've taken impala with 223 at some good distance...About 120 yards or so. One shot in the boiler room.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by wagdhead » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:47 pm

I went through this mental exercise myself this fall. I have a bunch of Ar's, but I can't deer hunt with them in Va. I had a FAL years ago, and wished I hadn't sold it. To me though it was not a hunting gun. I have all the requisite deer bolt guns, .243, .270, 25-06, and 30-06, but I really wanted an AR profile deer rifle. I am going with the 6.5 Grendel since it fits my current lowers, and meets MY needs. I am also saving up for a DSA FAL because I want one again.
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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:45 pm

zantra wrote:when you choose the 308, you choose to not have a suppressor, which, if you have to forage or fight, is a VERY dumb thing to do.
Didn't you mention suppressing a .30-06 in another thread that got locked??

And did you also say in another locked thread, and I quote, that "you'll be a lot safer than the dummy who's walking around with a FAL. In fact, you can have his Fal in short order (if you want to bother with the pos, that is)" about using a .22 as a combat weapon, which I'm guessing is a jab at this thread... because the "right-arm-of-the-free-world" is a Ruger 10/22 and not the FN FAL battle rifle.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were just trying too hard and that you came off wrong, but I'm thinking you're either a troll or just that delusional. If you're a troll, I hope you'd be more funny. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me and show me the error in my ways.

Either way, enjoy your airsoft training there, Quick Draw McGraw...
delarey wrote:The 223 with the right bullet is very capable...I've taken impala with 223 at some good distance...About 120 yards or so. One shot in the boiler room.
What bullet/load did you use? I brought an AR in .223 using Remington Hog Hammers hunting once, but never got to use it
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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by delarey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:15 pm

If I recall, it was locally produced (PMP) 55gr SP ammo out of a Brno with around a 20" barrel.

I didn't know about the other thread that zanta posted in. You had better be able to make a CNS shot with a 22 at 400 yards to take on some one fielding a FAL and knows how to use it.

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Re: Thinking of ditching .223 and AR's!

Post by ManInBlack316 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:29 pm

While I'm firmly in the AR/223 camp, mostly because it's what I learned on and my uses aren't usually hunting, I can see the logic for you to go with the FAL. Being that you said you already have experience with the FAL and already have 308 rifles.
What about keeping a few of the ARs and also getting a few FALs? Run a chest rig/belt that can accept either mags so that you can adapt your gear towards the mission?
As somebody else pointed out, you could use the AR as a trainer for the FAL because of the ballistics. Could also be good for friends/family that don't have experience with the FAL, I've found it's pretty easy to bring my friends/family up to speed on a 5.56 AR, obviously they're not ready to kick in doors but they could pull sentry duty.
The only concern I personally have with FALs, is that most aren't set up to use optics right out of the box. Yes you need to know how to use iron sights, but optics win in low level lighting.

Edit: The optic mounting doesn't apply to all FALs, just something I've seen on some FALs.

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