nobody needs a shotgun.

Forum dedicated for rifles and shotguns from basic to tactical.

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zantra
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nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by zantra » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:16 pm

it's just a toy, intended to boost egos by enabling poor stalkers to hit birds in flight. There is no need of such. All birds land sometime and short of a goose or turkey, they aint worth a shotshell. Ive taken literally truckloads of birds with the rifle and pistol, and its far more interesting/demanding (especially the pistol) You only need 3 guns. A sound-suppressed shorty AR15 in 223, an alloy framed 9mm commander variant (Filipino or Isreali made is best value) glock 19, or Kahr CW9, in 9mm, and a pocket 9mm, (ie, Kahr CM9, the Glock 43, or the kimber Micro9) all with .22lr conversion units. Sig makes them for the 1911 and the Sig P938, and it works on the Micro9 kimber. advantage makes one for the glock, Ciener makes one for several types of pistols and for the AK and Mini-14 as well as the AR.

The shotgun can't do the job of either the pistol or the rifle. Money and time spent on the shotgun can't be spent on training with the rifle or the (much more likely to be needed) pistol, or the even more likely to be needed hand to hand skills. Most attacks are not made with a gun. You are many times more likely to not HAVE the longarm at hand that you are to have the pistol not be "enough gun". If you dont corner them or wound them, almost always, they will flee at just the sight of your gun. I've pointed guns at men half a dozen times, and they always fled. Once I had to fire a warning shot over their heads, cause it was full dark and they could not see my .45. They set a new world record time for getting back into their car, believe it! :-) I WOULD have pointed a gun at people another half dozen times, but didn't have one at the time. That wont happen again!

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:23 pm

Ummm.... please check the rules. Gonna go out on a limb and talking about pointing guns at people with little context isn't really what this forum probably wants.

Also, shotguns are needed for some bird hunting by law, especially if the birds need to be airborne.

Also, the shotgun can be a great tool. Just depends on the situation.
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by quazi » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:38 pm

Nobody needs a firearm at all to get birds. I've taken thousands of them using just what was in my wallet.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by minengr » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:49 pm

Can speak for other states but in Illinois

It is unlawful to:
use a rifle, handgun or airgun to take game birds or migratory game birds.

Page 9 of Illinois Digest of Hunting and Trapping REGULATIONS 2016–2017. Pretty sure it's been a law for decades.

From the US Fish and Wildlife Service, pertaining to all migratory birds. You cannot hunt waterfowl:

With a trap, snare, net, rifle, pistol, swivel gun, shotgun larger than 10 gauge, punt gun, battery gun, machine gun, fish hook, poison, drug, explosive, or stupefying substance.

It's not an ego booster where I live. It is the only legal method of taking game birds. I will refrain from asking you to regale us with stories of your superior stalking skills, and the piles of birds you taken. Next you're going to tell us about your 1000 yard shooting with the shorty AR and all the deer and elk you have taken with said AR. I won't even get into all the states that are shotgun/slug only for deer hunting. Then there are all those states where you can deer hunt with a rifle but they require something larger than .223 caliber.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by majorhavoc » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:14 am

zantra wrote: can't be spent on training with the rifle or the (much more likely to be needed) pistol, or the even more likely to be needed hand to hand skills.
...
I've pointed guns at men half a dozen times, and they always fled. Once I had to fire a warning shot over their heads, cause it was full dark and they could not see my .45. They set a new world record time for getting back into their car, believe it! :-) I WOULD have pointed a gun at people another half dozen times, but didn't have one at the time. That wont happen again!
I can't decide if you're going through life looking for trouble, have exceptionally poor situational awareness or are simply trolling. Whatever you're up to, you're doing it seriously wrong.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:35 pm

zantra wrote:...I've pointed guns at men half a dozen times, and they always fled. Once I had to fire a warning shot over their heads, cause it was full dark and they could not see my .45...
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by Halfapint » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:49 pm

Just need to figure out a way I can stop a 338 round with my body.

Also I don't have a shotgun, don't want a shotgun, and will probably never own a shotgun. I just don't like them, I like shooting them, but for me, it's the rounds. I'm space conscious and shotgun rounds are bulky and heavy. However the deviststion they do is unparalleled for CQC. There's a reason the milieu still has them, and why lots of farmers still have them.

To say they are not needed is trolling, to go on a rant is uneducated.
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:17 pm

I'm going to disagree with Zantra on this one.

I think there's a need for a shotgun in many applications, be it hunting or home defense. In many states, mine included, a shotgun is required to take many game birds and is the only legal firearm one can use. To use a pistol or rifle to take game birds is illegal and pretty reckless of the shooter, regardless of training or level of experience.

As for home defense, everyone has their own personal preferences for what firearm they feel works in that situation. Personally, I've got a Remington 870 set up as my HD gun right now. Sure, I could use either of my AKs, but I feel more comfortable using a shotgun in a confined space like my house.

Everyone has their own opinion on what guns are the best in what situation. What works for one person may not work for another.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by ManInBlack316 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:15 pm

I personally don't like shotguns, I don't hunt birds, don't like the limited capacity of them, and I'm most comfortable with an AR because I mostly learned to shoot on an M16/M4.
That all being said, I think Zantra is trolling all of you guys....
If you've had to point your pistol at somebody that many times in real life and it wasn't while working as a LEO or mil, I think it's time to do some soul searching and maybe move. Also, pointing a gun at somebody with the absolute surety that they will flee is a good way to get shot with your own gun; if you pull out a gun, you'd better be willing to use it.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by taipan821 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:26 pm

Perhaps this thread should be buried. yes, you can shoot waterfowl with a rifle. but please remember zantra that hunting waterfowl is considered a shooting sport. it is considered bad form to turn up and shoot the ducks with a rifle while they are still in the pond
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:15 pm

taipan821 wrote:Perhaps this thread should be buried. yes, you can shoot waterfowl with a rifle. but please remember zantra that hunting waterfowl is considered a shooting sport. it is considered bad form to turn up and shoot the ducks with a rifle while they are still in the pond
This

Also bad form to shoot over someone's head... where'd that bullet go Z man?

Think we're dealing with a kid or a troll who clearly doesn't understand that ZS isn't ARF or THR.
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by quazi » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:29 pm

It's more common for people to hunt grouse with .22 rifles than shotguns around here. I generally prefer to hunt them with rifles. That said, what seemed to work really well for us is to have one person with a shotgun and another with a rifle, so that you can both shoot them on the wing and shoot them in the head if they're holding still.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:24 am

quazi wrote:It's more common for people to hunt grouse with .22 rifles than shotguns around here. I generally prefer to hunt them with rifles. That said, what seemed to work really well for us is to have one person with a shotgun and another with a rifle, so that you can both shoot them on the wing and shoot them in the head if they're holding still.
That is true, my family in AK all use .22LR. Since my uncle moved up there 15 years ago, he sad he hasn't used his shotgun once. You guys are allowed to take game on the ground and not-in-flight, correct?

On a side note, I feel like shotguns need to be categorized differently in some scenarios. Most people think of firearm categories like a 3 gun competition: Rifle, Shotgun, Pistol. In this categorization, a rifle (normally a semiauto modern sporting rifle variant) as a primary, and pistol as a secondary make sense.

BUT... I feel that a shotgun has virtues that some rifles do not have. Compared to an AR15 or AK47 for defensive purposes is unfair. Apples to oranges. But, if compared to a lever or bolt gun, the pump shotty can make a case.

So basically, if you think of firearms in category tiers such as:

Tier 1: assault/battle style (ARs, AKs, M1As, FALs, etc, etc)
Tier 2: manually cycled (bolt guns, lever guns, pump shotguns, etc, etc)
Tier 3: concealable/one armed (pistols and revolvers)

Basically what I am saying is a pump shotgun obviously can't compete with an AR15 in many defensive situations, but neither can a Remington 700. But no one posts about how Remington 700s are useless (except they are... thanks Freedom Group).

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by quazi » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:12 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:That is true, my family in AK all use .22LR. Since my uncle moved up there 15 years ago, he sad he hasn't used his shotgun once. You guys are allowed to take game on the ground and not-in-flight, correct?
Yes, at least when it comes to upland birds. I'm not sure what the rules are for waterfowl as I've never hunted them.

The only ditch chicken I ever killed with a shotgun I ground swatted. :crazy:

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by bamboo spear » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:27 pm

On the contrary, I'd argue that a shotgun is the only weapon that your typical household needs. It's nice to have a suppressed AR or a 9mm handgun or whatever, but for someone that just wants to keep someone from coming down their hall at 2am or stop someone coming through a window, there's no better tool than a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun.

If you're not hunting, or if you don't need a concealed carry, or if you're not particularly concerned with zombies or North Korean paratroopers, then a 300-500 dollar Mossberg or Remington should be more than sufficient.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by teotwaki » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:17 pm

dang, Zantra got itself banned already. Silly man!

Shotguns are for hunting doorknobs!!

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by ManInBlack316 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:55 pm

teotwaki wrote:dang, Zantra got itself banned already. Silly man!

Shotguns are for hunting doorknobs!!

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:50 pm

bamboo spear wrote:On the contrary, I'd argue that a shotgun is the only weapon that your typical household needs. It's nice to have a suppressed AR or a 9mm handgun or whatever, but for someone that just wants to keep someone from coming down their hall at 2am or stop someone coming through a window, there's no better tool than a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun.
Yeah but if in that situation you have to go down that hall to retrieve a child on the other side of the house. Having a shotgun barrel going around corners or past doorways a few seconds before you do is not recommended. That's where pistols and SBRs excell though, and they also stop hallway dudes and window dudes too. So shotguns get 2 out of 3 stars for hallways, windows, and corners, where Carbines, SBRs, and pistols get 3 out of 3.
bamboo spear wrote:
If you're not hunting, or if you don't need a concealed carry, or if you're not particularly concerned with zombies or North Korean paratroopers, then a 300-500 dollar Mossberg or Remington should be more than sufficient.
So you're saying that as long as you don't have to use it, a shotgun is more than sufficient. I agree.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by Close_enough » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:37 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
bamboo spear wrote:On the contrary, I'd argue that a shotgun is the only weapon that your typical household needs. It's nice to have a suppressed AR or a 9mm handgun or whatever, but for someone that just wants to keep someone from coming down their hall at 2am or stop someone coming through a window, there's no better tool than a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun.
Yeah but if in that situation you have to go down that hall to retrieve a child on the other side of the house. Having a shotgun barrel going around corners or past doorways a few seconds before you do is not recommended. That's where pistols and SBRs excell though, and they also stop hallway dudes and window dudes too. So shotguns get 2 out of 3 stars for hallways, windows, and corners, where Carbines, SBRs, and pistols get 3 out of 3.


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Not to put too fine of point on it... But, a shotgun is for standing at the end of the hallway and reenacting the Battle of Puebla. Hand (not hands) guns are for retrieving family members since it leaves one hand free to carry kids and open doors. Unless you have an apartment, in which case, you (according to your downrange neighbors) are probably better off with a sharp stick.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by ROCK6 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:27 pm

Not a whole lot of love for the ol'smoothbore. I would also argue the shotgun is one of the most versatile firearms in your arsenal. I likely wouldn't bugout with one nor run to a gun fight with one and a pistol is much easier to conceal (excluding AOW), but I still like what they offer. I still think they are a top choice for home-defense. Buckshot has a very good track record at dissuading aggressive perpetrators.

For the academic survival discussions of hunting, you're likely to shoot any critter in an unsporting method; it's not about sport but putting meat in the pot. Even with that said, a shotgun still provides a higher probability than a single rifle/pistol round. Add to the fact that more shot helps with fast moving small game, the same applies to medium sized game like deer and smaller hogs when using buckshot. Slugs provide some significant big-game (or engine block) performance as well...not so much at long distance, but well inside short-range/combat distances.

I would hazard a guess that many who discount the value and versatility of a shotgun have never taken a course with one. Yes, I own shotguns, but they were more for hobby and sport (hobbies included a few tactical type shotguns), but I never really considered them in my defensive plans. After taking one class, I've modified my perceptions and put them into my defensive plans. Realistically, they are relegated to home protection or carried in the truck as a backup/augmentation to my rife. Discounting a shotgun is simply ignorant; there's no other way to put it. Either you understand how to employ them or you don't...those that don't understand see no purpose for a shotgun, but that has zero bearing on the value of a shotgun.

So the OP is banned...almost sounds like the original "gunkid" of old! :mrgreen:

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by SCBrian » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:16 pm

ROCK6 wrote:
So the OP is banned...almost sounds like the original "gunkid" of old! :mrgreen:

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Read OP's other posts. It'll get rid of the "Almost" in your above statement :awesome:
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by Dooms » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:28 pm

When I used to have a little vacation bungalow house on the bay, I was trying to figure out one gun I could leave down there just in case. I settled on a 20ga youth shotgun with screw-in chokes. It was inexpensive (great in case the salt air rusted it away to nothing), fairly compact and handy, broke down into a small case, and could take both deer size and small game with off the shelf loads that were found in any sporting goods store around. Could even use it to bust some clays on the weekends.

Was it ideal at any one thing? Probably not. But it did everything well enough to serve its purpose. As they say, better than a sharp stick.

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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by woodsghost » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:16 pm

ROCK6 wrote:
After taking one class, I've modified my perceptions and put them into my defensive plans. Realistically, they are relegated to home protection or carried in the truck as a backup/augmentation to my rife.
I"d love to hear more about how we are misunderstanding the shotgun.

As I read you, the shotgun is now seen as important, but secondary to the rifle. To me, that says the rifle is of primary importance.

I really don't see any role the shotgun performs that the rifle doesn't perform better, except bird hunting. Even then, the rifle is capable of bird hunting, it is just more difficult.

I do like that the shotgun is cheaper. It offers limited drywall penetration with the right loads for less money than an AR with soft or hollow points. It also can allow travel in US states and Canada without legal hassles. Terminal performance can be quite nice within it's optimal performance envelope and with proper ammunition.

What else are we missing? Why is it now replacing your home defense gun? Why is it only augmenting your rifle for car carry?

I"m genuinely curious. I recently bought a shotgun so I could have a long gun in ban states and because I cannot yet afford an AR and my AK seemed like a less neighborly choice for apartment defense.
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Re: nobody needs a shotgun.

Post by flybynight » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:12 pm

woodsghost wrote:
ROCK6 wrote:
After taking one class, I've modified my perceptions and put them into my defensive plans. Realistically, they are relegated to home protection or carried in the truck as a backup/augmentation to my rife.
I"d love to hear more about how we are misunderstanding the shotgun.

As I read you, the shotgun is now seen as important, but secondary to the rifle. To me, that says the rifle is of primary importance.

I really don't see any role the shotgun performs that the rifle doesn't perform better, except bird hunting. Even then, the rifle is capable of bird hunting, it is just more difficult.

I do like that the shotgun is cheaper. It offers limited drywall penetration with the right loads for less money than an AR with soft or hollow points. It also can allow travel in US states and Canada without legal hassles. Terminal performance can be quite nice within it's optimal performance envelope and with proper ammunition.

What else are we missing? Why is it now replacing your home defense gun? Why is it only augmenting your rifle for car carry?

I"m genuinely curious. I recently bought a shotgun so I could have a long gun in ban states and because I cannot yet afford an AR and my AK seemed like a less neighborly choice for apartment defense.
bird hunting BECAUSE rifle is just more difficult
shotgun is cheaper. It offers limited drywall penetration with the right loads for less money than an AR with soft or hollow points. It also can allow travel in US states and Canada without legal hassles. Terminal performance can be quite nice within it's optimal performance envelope and with proper ammunition.
recently bought a shotgun so I could have a long gun in ban states and because I cannot yet afford an AR and my AK seemed like a less neighborly choice for apartment defense

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