Equipping Your fire Team

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Equipping Your fire Team

Post by Stercutus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:44 pm

Ah sadly, the world as you know it has ended. You have been dropped into the Mad Max type wasteland (Somewhere between MM I and MMII) populated with bad guys and slow moving zombies in the State formerly known as Texas. You and your four closest friends have arrived at the local gun shop with coin in the pocket and a need for standardized long guns before you make the long trek from El Paso to Texarkana (why are you going there? IDK) in your old pickup truck. The shop keeper has a good supply and can equip you with one of three choices all in good working order with enough ammo for everyone to carry about 90 rounds each:

Older Marlin Lever Action .30-30s
Chicom SKSs
M1 Garands

The team gets together and asks everyone to rank order their choices. So what do you pick and why?
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by RonnyRonin » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:40 pm

SKS
Marlin
Garand

I'm a weight weeny and prioritize fallowup shots over power. On paper I can see the advantages of the M1, but you couldn't pay me to haul one around. The low round count would tempt me to flip the SKS and marlin, but that would be a classic hardware solution to a software problem. Ammo quality (good .30-.30 vs crappy 7.62x39) might be enough to switch my top two.
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by doitnstyle1 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:00 pm

I think the choice might also have t do with capabilities of the persons carrying and using it.
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:07 pm

Garand
SKS
Marlin

The first two are battle rifles and you will be in battle / Both battle proven with the Garand described by Gen. Patton as "In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised"
The Marlin although a fine weapon was never designed for battlefield conditions, Slow reload, Mediocre ballistics ( I know the 7.62 is about on par, but it makes up for with semi auto fire and quick reload via stripper clips ). bayonet challenged and does not make near as good a club in melee situations because of it's lighter weight.
Now let me ask you a question Pilgrim. Did you include the Marlin in this brohau , just because it's in the great state of Texas? Or do you always think in terms of John byGod Wayne
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:03 pm

John Wayne used a Winchester

I have the Marlin and the SKS but never shot a Garand.
1. If all three have to take the same gun with 90 rounds I would go with the Garand. Of the three it can shoot the farthest accurately and loads faster than the Marlin and around the same as the sks. Big power round makes cover hard to come by for the enemy.
Garand negatives- its heavy, I worry about the op rod with new 30-06 ammo, can't easily top it off, oh and the big one... it would really suck if we had to use it as our only weapon to storm a house or any tight enclosed area.

2.Marlin Positives- it's easiest to top off, it's handy in tight quarters, got questionable ammo? no problem as it's hand operated not gas operated, easy to maintain, the big one.... you can reload it with home made black powder ( handy in the mad max world)
Negatives- slow to reload fully, make the first shot count as you may not get a second, not good at long ranges at all, sub 200 yard gun, really ineffective from the prone position

3. SKS positives-it's easy to top off and quick to reload, quick follow up shots, also handy in tight quarters, highest roundcount loaded, bayonet comes with it
Negatives- least accurate (in my experience), quickest to run out of ammo of the three (prevented by recoil in the Garand and lever action of the Marlin), they rattle ... all of them... every one. Stealth isn't an option in a quiet environment (like most of west TX)
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:21 pm

The Twizzler wrote:John Wayne used a Winchester



)
A 1892 to be precise. Only John Wayne could have a carbine that wasn't made until 1892 in 1868. :awesome:

(edit to add) Except for Jeffery Hunter ( Martin ) who carried a 1873 ( also in 1868)





Oh and they all carried Peacemakers (single action army) umm 1873 also..... Kinda makes the walking dead just a little more believable huh?
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by woodsghost » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:06 pm

I"m thinking:

Garand.
SKS.
Marlin.

Garand has range the SKS and Marlin do not. The Garand has punch through power, though the other two are not slouches. As long as we can load all 90 rounds in the enblock clips, I"d suffer the extra weight to have the extra range. Especially in West Tx. I'll also assume the kindly store owner has ammo that is the correct pressure for the Garand.

And while Patton was fond of the Garand, I'd love to know what he would think if he ever got to see the M14, the M16, the FAL, the AK series, the SCAR, or the freaking XM-25 grenade launcher. His perspective was likely limited by his place in history.
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by quazi » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:23 pm

Pulling the rifle, weights from Wikipedia, and the cartridge weights from this place and that place, this is what I've come up with:

Marlin .30-30
Rifle weight: 7 lbs
Ammunition weight:4.43 lbs
Total weight: 11.43 lbs

Chinese SKS
Rifle Weight: 8.5 lbs
Ammunition weight: 3.34 lbs
Total weight: 11.84

M1 Garand
Rifle weight: 9.5 lbs
Ammunition weight: 5.18 lbs
Total weight: 14.68 lbs

Notes:
I did not include weights of en bloc or stripper clips.
I used the Survivalist Boards post for .30-30/.30 WCF because I couldn't find it on the TFB article.
I averaged the weights of the 7.62x39, where for the .30-06 I just picked the M2 ball.
The Chinese made a lot of SKS variants, so I just went with what Wikipedia told me for their generic SKS page.

Also, I suck at the maths so feel free to double check my numbers.
Last edited by quazi on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by quazi » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:42 pm

woodsghost wrote:And while Patton was fond of the Garand, I'd love to know what he would think if he ever got to see the M14, the M16, the FAL, the AK series, the SCAR, or the freaking XM-25 grenade launcher. His perspective was likely limited by his place in history.
“In my opinion, the M1 rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised.” - General George S. Patton

"In my opinion, the pointy stick is the greatest battle implement ever devised." - Oog the caveman


I've owned both a Chinese SKS and a M1 Garand. I never shot both of them side-by-side, but it kind of stuck me that the SKS seemed to have more recoil than it ought to and the Garand had less recoil than it ought to. The SKS does have less recoil, but the difference isn't huge.

The overall length of all three rifles is actually pretty similar. Going by what Wikipedia says, they are all in the 40-43.5 inch range.

The Garand has better sights, but the SKS sights aren't terrible.

From my research, commercial .30-06 in the 150-160 grain range is pretty safe to use. The 180 grain stuff is where you start seeing a chance of bending the p rod. The cleaner and better lubricated the rifle is the less chance there is of fucking it up. This is just based off of what I read, I mostly stuck with ~150 grain stuff and used a Schuster gas plug with my 180 grain hunting loads.

Since we are in a truck, I would go with the Garand and hope that the truck doesn't break down. :ohdear:

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:44 pm

quazi wrote:Pulling the rifle, weights from Wikipedia, and the cartridge weights from this place and that place, this is what I've come up with:

Marlin .30-30
Rifle weight: 7 lbs
Ammunition weight:4.43 lbs
Total weight: 11.43 lbs

Chinese SKS
Rifle Weight: 8.5 lbs
Ammunition weight: 3.34 lbs
Total weight: 11.84

M1 Garand
Rifle weight: 9.5 lbs
Ammunition weight: 5.18 lbs
Total weight: 14.68 lbs

Notes:
I did not include weights of en bloc or stripper clips.
I used the Survivalist Boards post for .30-30 because I couldn't find it on the TFB article.
I averaged the weights of the 7.62x39, where for the .30-06 I just picked the M2 ball.
The Chinese made a lot of SKS variants, so I just went with what Wikipedia told me for their generic SKS page.

Also, I suck at the maths so feel free to double check my numbers.
You and your four closest friends have arrived at the local gun shop with coin in the pocket and a need for standardized long guns before you make the long trek from El Paso to Texarkana (why are you going there? IDK) in your old pickup truck.
Why is everyone so concerned with the weights?
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by emclean » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:12 am

Why is everyone so concerned with the weights?
cause things don't go according to your plan, so we have to think of the backup plans.
(isn't that kinda a common theme around here?)

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by Stercutus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:57 am

Now let me ask you a question Pilgrim. Did you include the Marlin in this brohau , just because it's in the great state of Texas?
I figure a cowboy setting for the ZPAW deserves a shot at a cowboy gun. But where are you going to find someone with four old Winchesters they are willing to part with? Also the Duke was from California. California before it turned into mostly a city.

I am suprised people would pick a lever gun over a Garand. I like lever guns for their light handiness but given the option I'd pick the Garand. Since I am thinking talking open prairie, ranges, flat lands and deserts it would be my first choice.

Garand
SKS
Marlins
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by ROCK6 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:32 pm

SKS
Garand*
Levergun

*I would find out who in your "team" are the best shooters and have a couple armed with Garands. Out of the box (so to speak), they have the best iron sights and the best long-range potential. The rest of the fire team, I would arm with SKSs. I miss the popularity of the SKS from the 80's and early 90's; they were the budget survival gun of the times. I remember seeing the speed reload drills with stripper clips and seeing a couple guys running them at the range during some courses. They are quite reliable and handy (if not a little heavy as steel and wood guns) and more than "combat-accurate". I did add peep sights on both my SKSs for even more accurate, speed shooting, but stock sights are more than capable as well.

The big issue with the Garand and SKS are to have plenty of enbloc and stripper clips. At least you can load an SKS without a stripper clip, but you'll need plenty for rapid reloading. Having eight or ten .30 caliber rounds on semi-auto tap is pretty significant; a fire-team armed with both offers a lot of potent firepower. Even though neither would be my first choice, I definitely wouldn't feel under-gunned with either.

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:59 pm

emclean wrote:
Why is everyone so concerned with the weights?
cause things don't go according to your plan, so we have to think of the backup plans.
(isn't that kinda a common theme around here?)
Well it's Texas. So if the Johnson valve breaks or you get water bubbles in the radiator or even low oil pressure in the tires. You'll just a Rope yourself a mustang pony and ride into the....... umm sunrise
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by raptor » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:57 pm

flybynight wrote: Well it's Texas. So if the Johnson valve breaks...
I am not sure about a Johnson valve but in my world if theJohnson bar breaks I cannot extend the flaps so I would have to land fast, preferable on a longer paved runway. :D

The question is IMO difficult. The .30-30 would benefit from widespread ammo availability but then .30-06 and 7.62x39mm are not that tough to find either.

The garand needs clips to operate. One more thing to run out of or lose. That and not all .30-06 will run well in a garand.

The SKS is pretty robust and simple and has the benefit of 10 rounds in the magazine and no need of clips though stripper clips will speed reloading.

I am assuming I will be in need of these rifles for self defense primarily against humans who will also have rifles. So I need a reliable and proven rifle with the ability to fire against others with semi-auto weapons firing at me. This ups the ante a lot.

I would opt for the garand since it has a bit longer reach (better accuracy beyond 300 meters and decent terminal performance out to 500 yards). Texas to Texarkana tends to be flat allowing longer range engagements until you get to the ARKLATEX area when the vegetation limits the vision to under 300 yards generally.

I would also want 2 decent sets of binoculars or binocs and spotting scope with a window mount for the PU.

Now I may suggest two garands and two SKS so to diversify the ammo we can use. That said I am not sure me and any 3 of MY friends would survive more than hostile shooting incident.

Ok well maybe me and one particular friend would make it. :wink:

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:32 pm

Sounds more like a New Jersey gunshop to me.

Here's a photo of me and my 4 friends after leaving a real Texas gunshop. [I'm holding the camera.] The only thing we needed to buy was some sunscreen, we walked in with all the rest. Made it up from FL and underestimated the Sunscreen loadout. All the bad guys we ran into had lever actions or SKS's [and no sunscreen].

Image :mrgreen:

These are overlapping choices. IIRC the SKS and Garand are similar guns, both having a 'clip' top load, and no detachable mag. 30-06 has better ballistics but w/ a larger cartridge. The SKS ballistics are almost identical to the 30 30 but you can do a 'tactical reload'. The Lever action is very slow to load, one at a time. None will be very useful at close or long range considering the ballistics and standard iron sights they come with [when was the last time you practiced shooting past 300 yds with iron sights? ], the loading procedure, and the size of the weapon. All will be useful as clubs when you run out of ammo as they are pretty long and heavy. The SKS doubles as a short pike, because it usually has a built in bayonet.

Really need a close quarters, medium range, and long range choice, and something with a formidable ROF, and maybe a shotgun. In only two or three calibers including the shotty. I don't know why Texas doesn't have this stuff stocked deep...

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2 M1 Garands
1 30 30

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by wamba » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:04 pm

1. SKS- Higher capacity, not dependent on clips or mags, fairly common ammo (& often bought & sold in bulk), semi-auto, robust design, quicker reload, & often comes with bayonet. On the down side- not the most accurate, & not the most powerful.
Pros 7 vs Cons 2

2. Garand- Accurate, longer reach, more power, quicker reload, common caliber, & can be equipped with bayonet. On the down side- can be picky on ammo, clip dependent, can't be topped off(seems I’m wrong on this), & heaviest.
Pros 6 vs Cons 4 (3)

3. Marlin- Light weight, 30-30 seems to be everywhere, can be topped off, not picky on ammo (if it fits it shoots), & not dependent on clips or mags. On the down side- slow to reload, manual action, & no provision for solid attachment of something sharp (slow zombies beg for bayoneting).
Pros 5 vs Cons 3
Last edited by wamba on Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:07 pm

A lot of the choices are based on the scenario you gave. We only have 90 rounds. It's a mad max world so who knows when we can resupply. Also I wanna ride in the cab not the bed and if there is bad weather or in the TX sun so will you. That means everyone pointing those Garands at targets from inside the cab is gonna be hard, where as the Marlin would be a lot easier. That is unless we ride in like a modern Dragoon ( sally forth towards the enemy, dismount, and making use of your transport as a shield, fire towards the enemy)

Although if we are, please remind the team that we come to a full stop before dismounting.
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Stercutus wrote:
Now let me ask you a question Pilgrim. Did you include the Marlin in this brohau , just because it's in the great state of Texas?
I figure a cowboy setting for the ZPAW deserves a shot at a cowboy gun. But where are you going to find someone with four old Winchesters they are willing to part with? Also the Duke was from California. California before it turned into mostly a city.

I am suprised people would pick a lever gun over a Garand. I like lever guns for their light handiness but given the option I'd pick the Garand. Since I am thinking talking open prairie, ranges, flat lands and deserts it would be my first choice.

Garand
SKS
Marlins
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:36 pm

The Twizzler wrote:A lot of the choices are based on the scenario you gave. We only have 90 rounds. It's a mad max world so who knows when we can resupply. Also I wanna ride in the cab not the bed and if there is bad weather or in the TX sun so will you. That means everyone pointing those Garands at targets from inside the cab is gonna be hard, where as the Marlin would be a lot easier. That is unless we ride in like a modern Dragoon ( sally forth towards the enemy, dismount, and making use of your transport as a shield, fire towards the enemy)

Although if we are, please remind the team that we come to a full stop before dismounting.
Image

Stercutus wrote:
Now let me ask you a question Pilgrim. Did you include the Marlin in this brohau , just because it's in the great state of Texas?
I figure a cowboy setting for the ZPAW deserves a shot at a cowboy gun. But where are you going to find someone with four old Winchesters they are willing to part with? Also the Duke was from California. California before it turned into mostly a city.

I am suprised people would pick a lever gun over a Garand. I like lever guns for their light handiness but given the option I'd pick the Garand. Since I am thinking talking open prairie, ranges, flat lands and deserts it would be my first choice.

Garand
SKS
Marlins
Ah ! That made me think of something that would affect our choices. What kind of Pick up will we be driving in? I mean if it's a dodge better pick the Garand. If it's a Ford , either of the firearms will probably work. But if it's a Chevy Just take whatever gun the shopkeeper hands you first and shoot yourself :crazy:
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by raptor » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:54 pm

Wow first a caliber war and rifle type war...Now a truck brand war, :clownshoes:

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by Stercutus » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:48 pm

The only thing we needed to buy was some sunscreen, we walked in with all the rest.
For all the exposed skin right? :P
IIRC the SKS and Garand are similar guns, both having a 'clip' top load, and no detachable mag.
No, the clip in the Garand inserts then automatically ejects when the gun is empty after shooting. No clip and you are in single shot mode. It is stupid design insisted upon by the US Army that did not want to deal with detachable magazines at the time. The SKS uses stripper clips to reload. You can reload easily without them albeit much more slowly.
I don't know why Texas doesn't have this stuff stocked deep...
Ah, because it is the PAW. Consider Texas to be one of the only states with a functioning gun shop in the hereafter anyway.

Garand- Accurate, longer reach, more power, quicker reload, common caliber, & can be equipped with bayonet. On the down side- can be picky on ammo, clip dependent, can't be topped off,
Can too.

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by flybynight » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:34 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:Sounds more like a New Jersey gunshop to me.

Here's a photo of me and my 4 friends after leaving a real Texas gunshop. [I'm holding the camera.] The only thing we needed to buy was some sunscreen, we walked in with all the rest. Made it up from FL and underestimated the Sunscreen loadout. All the bad guys we ran into had lever actions or SKS's [and no sunscreen].

Image :mrgreen:

These are overlapping choices. IIRC the SKS and Garand are similar guns, both having a 'clip' top load, and no detachable mag. 30-06 has better ballistics but w/ a larger cartridge. The SKS ballistics are almost identical to the 30 30 but you can do a 'tactical reload'. The Lever action is very slow to load, one at a time. None will be very useful at close or long range considering the ballistics and standard iron sights they come with [when was the last time you practiced shooting past 300 yds with iron sights? ], the loading procedure, and the size of the weapon. All will be useful as clubs when you run out of ammo as they are pretty long and heavy. The SKS doubles as a short pike, because it usually has a built in bayonet.

Really need a close quarters, medium range, and long range choice, and something with a formidable ROF, and maybe a shotgun. In only two or three calibers including the shotty. I don't know why Texas doesn't have this stuff stocked deep...

3 SKSs
2 M1 Garands
1 30 30

And a partridge in a pear treeeeeeeee.
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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by quazi » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:08 am

So, does Mad Max just mean a scenario where there are armed bandits, or does it mean psychos in weird outfits are rolling around in crazy cobbled together battle wagons? :lol:

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Re: Equipping Your fire Team

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:37 am

flybynight wrote: Holy crap you're a video game character? :shock: Say hi to Dempsey for me
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