The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

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The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by KnifeStyle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:50 pm

I live a truly typical life. I work in a cubicle all day, and drive home to a wooded but wildlife free suburb that is slowly being turned into industrial parks and houses. I rent a room in a townhouse with neighbors' kids running around on various wheeled toys outside. I am not a hunter, and my friends who do hunt head out of state to do so without easy access to hunting grounds. I carry a pistol daily, train with it for competitions, and it sleeps on my nightstand. I also built an AR which I've done classes with, because I was never hugged as a child and why not. It hangs out either in the safe downstairs in a moisture resistant pouch or leans on my desk unloaded if I'm doing dry drills with it.

Yet in the last few months, I've seen an increase in Tactical Gurus and Concealment Columnists discussing the shotgun as a traditional but still very relevant defense tool which they highly recommend for those new to firearms seeking to protect their homes. They often cite its history as a pest control and livestock defense tool, its heritage as being widely accepted even in anti-weapon cultures, and for hunters it can be second nature. I've seen it recommended for novice users with minimal training, such as the 'have your spouse shoot through the door if they don't hear your voice' metaphor often mentioned. On a prepper front, the wide array of loads available make it seem better for gathering food than a carbine.

I have no livestock to protect from coyotes, and my condo association doesn't seem to like people going vigilante posse on the racoons tip the trash over. I actively train with my weapon platform of choice, and find maneuvering with a pistol to be more realistic for my home's layout. I can legally own a carbine in my area, and being a quiet gun owner the publicity perks of 'just an ol' shotgun' don't apply. Even if, I'm a long haired social media specialist, my owning a hunting shotgun is about as innocent as a baseball bat in the car without a ball and glove. I am single and don't need to arm anyone else in my household, and if they had limited training I'm not tossing them a weapon and saying 'cover me.' I'm very aware I won't be able to bring home peasant or deer with an AR...But even if I had an ideal hunting weapon I would have no idea what I was doing. If things escalate to requiring long arms, I'm more familiar with a carbine, and it utilizes my pistol fundamentals.

My amateur theories: One Tactical Guru started mentioning the shotgun right around the time he started offering classes on it, in which students were told to bring in any old shotgun they could find and run modified carbine drills with it. As for the columnists, gun sales are spiking, and many new owners are stumped looking for the easiest possible solutions as they seek basic training in basic firearm operation. Having worked as a cashier at a big box firearm dealer, I remember selling a few dozen shotguns a day as hunting season prep began but only a few scattered ones as winter and summer hit. If one looked into the vault at inventory, by cubic feet you'd have the most space occupied by lower-to-mid-level shotguns. At the Cabela's I was at, our counter clerks didn't play brand games and would sell pistols for defense, but if we had a more corporate presence I'm curious if anyone would get told to unload surplus shotguns by the end of the month.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:02 pm

I used to opine that the basic household load out was a pistol, a rifle and a shotgun. I'm not saying this to get into a debate, just using it to say, that if you don't think you need a shotgun, you don't need a shotgun.

Here I will defer to the specialized knowledge of shotgun enthusiasts and various types of hunters and observe, that despite different types of loads, the shotguns used by bird hunters, deer hunters, and police, seem very specific to the task.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:47 pm

Anyone see my can of worms around here?? I may have left it down a rabbit hole, but I was distracted cuz I was shooting a dead horse...

Seriously though, it can be argued any way you want. It's preference in my eyes. I like my Mossberg cruiser and its an option, but nothing is 100% best.

I also like riding shotgun. And shotgunning beers. Not at the same time.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by PistolPete » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:59 pm

I think shotguns certainly have some perks, but maybe aren't considered the goto gun they once were.

If you can only have one long gun for hunting, a shotgun is where it's at. Use shot for small game and birds, slugs or buckshot for medium game and varmint control (like coyotes). Buckshot will let it do duty as a defense weapon as well, a blast from a shotgun has substantially more energy and mass than a pistol round. They can be effective fight stoppers.

However, for many applications a carbine is a better defense tool. The 55 grain ammo fragments when it hits drywall, reducing the risk that an errant shot would harm someone. Most buckshot and especially slugs will punch through a half dozen walls, which really means you have to be careful with shot placement. As a defensive round, the biggest thing a shotgun has going for it is it can be the most affordable defense weapon available. It's cheaper and more effective than a handgun for home defense. But for a person that already has a carbine, you've already got that role filled. In your case, I wouldn't see much of a need for one.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Dioxin » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:41 pm

Pick a tool, train for it. Learn it, Love it, keep it near. This will be the best tool in your arsenal.

If you have the funds and time available, go do a defensive home course in each weapon system.
Make sure you get to shoot in a proper shoot house.

Which of the three (Carbine, pistol, shotty) were you most effective with? This is the one to choose.
You may wish to also add your feeling on the concussion effect with ear-pro. Now imagine it without.

For most people its about choosing the best tool available, for me its a pistol. I wouldn't try to defend my home
with a bolt gun ;) I dont own a carbine or shotgun.

Every time I see this kind of topic brought up the clincher for me is "Follow up shots", unless someone trains to a
top tier competitive level in one discipline, they are generally more effective with follow up shots with a rifle.

And I certainly wouldn't want to shoot a shotgun in my house without ear-pro, concussion alone will probably put me out of action.

Regards

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Dioxin » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:43 pm

KnifeStyle wrote:One Tactical Guru started mentioning the shotgun right around the time he started offering classes on it
This is probably the crux of why it got brought up. at the end of the day he is a salesman too.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by KnifeStyle » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:57 pm

Obviously I'm biased and sheltered from this section of the firearms community, I am very open to hearing what makes shotguns work and their ideal uses. I'm not buying one unless three-gun starts up in my region or if some friends get me into clay shooting, but for some it may indeed be the key.
PistolPete wrote: As a defensive round, the biggest thing a shotgun has going for it is it can be the most affordable defense weapon available. It's cheaper and more effective than a handgun for home defense.
This may be a factor I hadn't considered. For some one not looking into carrying down the line, that is a solid reasoning.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Close_enough » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:32 pm

Dioxin wrote:
KnifeStyle wrote:One Tactical Guru started mentioning the shotgun right around the time he started offering classes on it
This is probably the crux of why it got brought up. at the end of the day he is a salesman too.
There is some historical context as well. I'm thinking of the Winchester model 1897. During WWI, it was referred to as a "trench sweeper" due to it's effectiveness in the confines of the trenches. It later became the prototypical long arm for uban LEOs.

The point is, the scattergun's reputation as a effective "bedroom to living room" distance weapon was already established well before the civilian market AR's became popular. IMHO, the fact that a reliable pump gun is cheaper than a reliable handgun, much cheaper than a reliable AR, and has fewer legislative hassles then either has helped sustain it's popularity as a "home defense only" weapon. The TacGuru, being a salesman, was just following the market.

In your case, being already proficient with both a pistol and a carbine, I see no reason for a home defense scattergun. Now, about lighting off in a narrow hallway with either one.... There's some very nice electronic hearing pro on the market that will keep your head from getting hammered flat without sacrificing situation awareness.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Neville » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:31 pm

There is a lot of misinformation floating around about defensive shotguns.

First, no one "needs" a shotgun unless they have some kind of objective that nothing else will meet.

If you are going to compete in skeet, or go pheasant hunting, you will probably have a difficult time doing those things without a shotgun.

If you are talking about defending your home, You have a lot of options. Each of those options will have it's own inherent strength's and weaknesses. Pistols are light and compact, and are the preferred choice for "clearing" i.e. investigating a noise of unknown origin (specifically, something you CANNOT identify as definitely being something non-threatening, but also CANNOT positively identify it a potential legit threat). But pistols are relatively weak compared to long guns in terms of stopping the fight. It may not stop a large attacker or someone high on drugs in a quick, incapacitating way. Capacity, though good, is not nearly as good as a semi-auto rifle with a large capacity magazine.

Ah, now we come to the rifle. It hits harder than a pistol in terms of ballistic energy delivered to the target. It is easier to take long shots with. A semi-auto delivers decent volume of fire and high-capacity replaceable magazines offer a lot of trigger-pulls - if you are being invaded by a motorcycle gang, you probably need to be the last one standing with ammo still in his gun. But rifle bullets can travel a long way through common home construction, depending on how susceptible to fragmentation the projectile being used happens to be. That can be a real threat to bystanders beyond the immediate combat arena.

Shotgun - It can be used for home defense if properly employed. From that statement you may be inferring that there is both a right (successful) way to deploy a shotgun, and a wrong (ineffective) way to do it. And you would be right. A shotgun is not like an "area" weapon where everything on THAT side of the room gets blown away with one shot. If you think that's how they work, I would guess you have never been out on a skeet field. You have to AIM, just like any other gun. And you have to use the right ammo. Small, light pellets do not penetrate well - birdshot in a shotgun is likely to leave a gory but superficial wound without penetrating to the vital organs which are situated deeper. Nature put them there for a reason - to protect them - and in order to thwart nature's aim you have to use larger, heavier pellets. Number 1 buck shot is proven to be the best choice, but you typically do not see a lot of it on shelves. Double aught (00) is a more traditional and widespread choice that has proven very effective over the years and in fact is what the military and police use most often when their jobs call for the use of a shotgun. A pump shotgun is fairly heavy, especially when loaded, and carries a fairly low capacity (usually 5-8 rounds), so it makes a poor "patrol" weapon where you will do a lot of walking while carrying it. The other challenge here is keeping it fed. Since few shotguns have removable magazines, one must constantly "top-up" the magazine. Shotguns usually don't penetrate body-armor, a trait shared with most pistols. Unless you're using a shotgun slug, in which case, I greatly suspect you will not need to penetrate the vest in order to make an impression.

The big thing the shotgun has going for it is raw power. No other commonly available firearm delivers a more devastating and fight-stopping blow with a single pull of the trigger. In court, the defendant may have a tough time defending to a group of non-gun-savvy jurors why he shot the perp 9 times with his 32 acp pistol and have to seriously fend off insinuations of intentional murder whether true or not. However, the same defendant in a slightly altered scenario finds himself with a humble 12 gauge shotgun in his hands.... and delivers the same 9 pellets with a single trigger pull. A good shoot is a good shoot, but convincing a jury isn't always that simple.

Because of these characteristics, the shotgun makes a good (what I call a) barricade weapon. You're home alone, sleeping, when you wake up to a noise. Creeping out of bed, you take your pistol and go to the top of the stairs to investigate.... at which point, you see shadows moving downstairs and hear muffled voices... ok, now we have identified that there is an actual threat present. Confront? That's one way to play it, but a safer option is to retreat back to the bedroom where the loaded shotgun stands beside the bed. You dial 911 and toss the receiver on the bed shouting "I've called the cops! You better go! I have a loaded gun, don't come in here! (rack shotgun to punctuate the sentence) The cops are coming! Don't come in here, I'll shoot!" while you stand with the muzzle of the shotgun trained on the bedroom door. This is what I mean by a barricade weapon. You "barricade" yourself in the most secure location available, narrowing the point of access to a single point of entry, and secure that access point with the most powerful weapon you can field.

Criminals, studies have shown, fear the 12 gauge shotgun more than any other weapon. If they have any mental capacity at all, they are not going to want to tangle with one. That's not to say you won't end up facing someone who IS willing to go up against a shotgun, for whatever reason. You have to be willing to follow through and pull the trigger when worse comes to worse and they actually do come through that bedroom door. Don't expect racking the shotgun to stop the threat (it may, but that outcome is far from certain). Some people advocate for "stalking" through your house and pulling the trigger the first time you can get a sight picture. I don't believe that's advisable, as it invites too many legal complications and makes a terrible mess. I guess it is everyone's call whether - in a given circumstance - they really NEED to pull the trigger, because that doesn't end the problem, it just changes it into a different form. Which form is better, is a matter outside my ability to address here because the variables are just too numerous.

One other consideration is that a properly loaded defensive shotgun produces substantial recoil when fired. For more robust individuals, this isn't a significant deterrent but a 98 lb woman might feel differently. But then again, recoil is such a subjective experience that it's hard to say who it will be a problem for. The key is to be honest about it. If recoil hurts you, you aren't going to want to practice, and lack of practice is the number one cause of lack of skill and lack of performance. So if you aren't going to commit to regular training and practice, then keep looking until you find what works for you.

I keep a Mossberg 590 next to the bed and my wife keeps one on her side of the bed. We each have pistols as well, ready to go. I recently completed a 300 Blackout AR-15 pistol (10.5" barrel) which will be joining the home defense roster. Every weapon has it's rightful place - the key is knowing how to use them and when to employ each based on the situation.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:42 am

I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show criminals fear shotties more than any other weapon.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by 111t » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:33 am

One of the things that makes a shotgun very effective against an unarmored human target is that it is ridiculously overpowered for that task.

If you look at the 5.56 rifles, they were designed from the ground up to be the ideal fighting tool. They were designed to be lightweight, Carry many rounds and fire them quickly. The intermediate cartridge was designed specifically to trade unnecessary power of the full rifle cartridges for more ammo capacity in the soldier's load.

Now let's take a look at the dynamics of the shotgun...
The shotgun shell was designed to project a killing shot pattern of small shot at flying birds. They had to be both powerful enough and plentiful enough to score enough hits to bring the bird down. Over the years various sizes have become standardized with the 12 gauge being the most common. The next dynamic to understand is that old formula from physics class
Force = mass X acceleration. With your 5.56 you have a smaller projectile going very fast. With a shotgun you have a much more massive payload going much slower. Within that payload you may have one or multiple projectiles. The force is divided among them. For an equal powder load/payload mass the smaller the shot... The more of them there will be. And the less actual force each one will have. The fewer the projectiles the more massive they will be and the more power they will pack as a result. The point is, the shotgun shell was designed around BIRDSHOT having enough power to do its task. The amount of power that buckshot and slugs deliver is a consequence of the birdshot load. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

Bottom line if you had a pistol in one hand and a shotgun in the other when the fight starts, use the shotgun. The rifle has some distinct advantages particularly in the area of ammunition capacity.
Last edited by 111t on Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Neville » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:53 am

Stercutus wrote:I'd be interested in seeing the studies that show criminals fear shotties more than any other weapon.
Wish I had the source handy, it was based on prison interviews. Not sure if it was the same as the pistol fear criteria study... cons talked about what pistol features raised their hackles most. Some surprising stuff. They feared revolvers more than semiauto. A large bore upped the ante. And stainless gave an impression of "more powerful". Not the brightest bunch. But understanding how they think can sometimes prove useful.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Neptune Glory » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:11 am

111t wrote:If you look at the 5.56 rifles, they were designed from the ground up to be the ideal fighting tool. They were designed to be lightweight, Carry many rounds and fire them quickly. The intermediate cartridge was designed specifically to trade unnecessary power of the full rifle cartridges for more ammo capacity in the soldier's load.
This is actually my argument against owning a 5.56x45mm semi-automatic rifle, at least for myself. I don't want a semi-automatic rifle that's been tweaked to take down multiple human aggressors at once. If I was fighting a war, sure, an M4 or a M249 would make a lot of sense... but for home defense, my concern is that anything could break in, including large critters that might not be dissuaded by the souped-up "varmit round".

After researching Jeff Cooper's "Scout Rifle" concept, and getting some really good advice from the Zombie Squad forum, this is what I did:

I went out and purchased two 9mm pistols (G19 and G26) for EDC, a 12 gauge pump action shotgun with a flashlight mount (it shares a flashlight with my Glock 19), and a semi-automatic .308 Winchester as my rifle. It's a S&W M&P-10, the camo version.

The shotgun is loaded with alternating 00 buck / deer slug / 00 buck / deer slug / 00 buck. The idea is, this will be able to deal with either human aggressors or with an angry bear, equally well. Even if the human aggressor is wearing body armor, it should knock them down hard and stop the threat... or if the aggressive human is still trying to harm me, they'll be in a less advantaged position once they're flat on their back. The sidearm is always carried on me unless I'm sleeping. The rifle, well... it's not really appropriate for home defense, however it will be able to deal with anything up to and including a zombie apocalypse that might happen outside of the home (and I hope it never does).

So is the suburban shotgun really needed? I like it for home defense. Much less expensive than a 5.56x45mm carbine. Pump actions are quite reliable. My vote is yes.

-Neptune

Addendum: The pistol that I still want to obtain is a Glock model 40 in 10mm. When that is purchased, it will become my home defense pistol, with the 9mm pistols for everyday concealed carry. Same logic: the 10mm is more capable than the 9mm at dealing with larger-than-human threats.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Paladin1 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:39 pm

Wow, first time this has ever come up......

A search will turn up many threads about shotguns for SD. A perusal of said threads will reveal I'm a proponent of said shotguns. But things evolve, and now I use a 300BLK in the SD role once served by the shotgun.

My shotgun gets used for 3gun. If I was ever in the unlikely situation that I needed to hunt for food, it would come in handy. But I have a .25cal air rifle for small game and would use my AR/300BLK for any long range work. So even in that role it's usefulness has been reduced.

However, based on the OP's description of your AO and situ, I see no reason for you to get one.

1.) You don't hunt, nor plan too.
2.) You have a sidearm and rifle you train with.

Done.
WWSD?

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:58 pm

Yeah, but 300BLK doesn't come in exotic specialty loads like Armor Piercing, Zombie Killer, Double Slug, Exploder, Flechette, Macho Gaucho, Piranha, Rhodesian Jungle, Pit Bull, Terminator, Triple Decker, Confetti, Flash Thunder Grenade

...including my personal favorite: Dragon's Breathe.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:53 pm

It does come in AP.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by BeachNome » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:19 am

In some aspects the need for a shotgun is more for the development of the warrior with in...borrow a copy of the five rings from your library and you'll be taught many things one of those lessons is that a master has no favorite weapon and is experienced with as many weapons as possible, as every weapon has its virtues..

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Neville » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:23 am

BeachNome wrote:In some aspects the need for a shotgun is more for the development of the warrior with in...borrow a copy of the five rings from your library and you'll be taught many things one of those lessons is that a master has no favorite weapon and is experienced with as many weapons as possible, as every weapon has its virtues..
I like this philosophy.

One thing about a pump shotgun. It's a firearm that nearly ANYONE in North America, who has ever handled a firearm of any kind, is likely to have some basic handling experience with.

The utility of this starts to become clear when you are in a situation where you need an ally of convenience to assist with defensive tasks, and they don't happen to have a firearm on them... but YOU happen to have one to loan them. Or, when you find yourself in a situation minus your "favorite" firearm, and your "host" (or the place you just happen to be) has a shotgun. Why? Because .22lr rifle aside, it's the most ubiquitous firearm type in existence.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Paladin1 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:01 pm

Neville wrote:
BeachNome wrote:In some aspects the need for a shotgun is more for the development of the warrior with in...borrow a copy of the five rings from your library and you'll be taught many things one of those lessons is that a master has no favorite weapon and is experienced with as many weapons as possible, as every weapon has its virtues..
I like this philosophy.

One thing about a pump shotgun. It's a firearm that nearly ANYONE in North America, who has ever handled a firearm of any kind, is likely to have some basic handling experience with.

The utility of this starts to become clear when you are in a situation where you need an ally of convenience to assist with defensive tasks, and they don't happen to have a firearm on them... but YOU happen to have one to loan them. Or, when you find yourself in a situation minus your "favorite" firearm, and your "host" (or the place you just happen to be) has a shotgun. Why? Because .22lr rifle aside, it's the most ubiquitous firearm type in existence.

They are commonly referred to as "meat shields" Hand them the shotgun, but don't actually load it, they might shoot somebody by accident. :lol:
WWSD?

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Neville » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:51 pm

Paladin1 wrote:
Neville wrote:
BeachNome wrote:In some aspects the need for a shotgun is more for the development of the warrior with in...borrow a copy of the five rings from your library and you'll be taught many things one of those lessons is that a master has no favorite weapon and is experienced with as many weapons as possible, as every weapon has its virtues..
I like this philosophy.

One thing about a pump shotgun. It's a firearm that nearly ANYONE in North America, who has ever handled a firearm of any kind, is likely to have some basic handling experience with.

The utility of this starts to become clear when you are in a situation where you need an ally of convenience to assist with defensive tasks, and they don't happen to have a firearm on them... but YOU happen to have one to loan them. Or, when you find yourself in a situation minus your "favorite" firearm, and your "host" (or the place you just happen to be) has a shotgun. Why? Because .22lr rifle aside, it's the most ubiquitous firearm type in existence.

They are commonly referred to as "meat shields" Hand them the shotgun, but don't actually load it, they might shoot somebody by accident. :lol:

Kenneth: You know how to use that?
Michael: [pointing to the shotgun muzzle] This is the dangerous end, right?
Kenneth: [Taking the safety off] Now it is.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by roscoe » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:14 am

I say no. You have what you need for reasonable self-defense. Save your money for something else you will actually use and enjoy.

Unless you just want an excuse to help us spend our way out of this recession. They you should buy a Browning Citori with gold inlay, a tweed shooting jacket with shoulder patch, a brace of hounds, and a pipe. And then get yourself an estate and walk around with the Citori broken over your left forearm, making sure no one is peeping over your hedge. Well, that is what I would do . . .

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:09 pm

I think in the final analysis if you live in a state that places severe restrictions on magazine capacity or does not allow semi-automatic rifles of a good defensive caliber than the shotgun could supplant that role.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:44 am

The more I think about it, the more I like a 12 gauge for home defense.

It's like a mental security blanket. After blasting around at the range, blowing up jugs of water and old children's toys... basically vaporizing everything in its path... I realize how much power one 12 gauge shell has. It provides great comfort and puts my mind at ease knowing it is within arms reach when I sleep.

Now, I understand "tactically" there are pros and cons to shotguns, but it's like having a Dodge Hellcat. Yeah, you'll probably never need that 700 horsepower under the hood, and there are a lot of downfalls, but it feels really nice knowing you have a fire breather so close to your butthole.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:09 pm

I think it is strictly up to you. If you are fine with your carbine, and it fits your situation, there really isn't a need for a shotgun. I have a carbine set up at my place to deal with things that go bump in the night, and the odd coyote or bobcat that is going after my livestock. But I live in the boonies on a horse property, where the minimum lot size is 2 acres. On the other hand, I also keep a shotgun handy, because there really isn't anything else out there that can match it when it comes to raw power. And it is the most utilitarian gun out there. I like it mainly because I have seen how hitting a target with buckshot tends to shut down their nervous system. Between the hydorstatic shock and the massive damage to multiple areas, the nervous system tends to just say "Nope", and they buckle at the knees and go down. There is very little else out there that can do that with one shot unless it hits the CNS.

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