SRD; defend this. please.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Manimal2878 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:26 pm

ultra magnus wrote:Just like simply producing a handgun has the very real potential to end an encounter I imagine the implied presence of a shotgun via it racking may work as well. That said putting any real faith in it as a defensive technique is clown shoes.

I don't think you can really argue that racking the shotgun doesn't have the potential to end an encounter, because it certainly can.

The problem with it is that racking the shotgun has cons as well as that one pro; it means you either didn't have one in the chamber ready to stop an intruder, or you just ejected a perfectly good shell from an already low capacity weapon.

Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Stercutus » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:49 pm

Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.
However, those same departments often have policies about keeping the shotgun (and/ or rifle) chamber empty in patrol units that carry them. :clownshoes:
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by feedthedog » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:00 pm

This is one of those things that makes crazy people like us flip out, but probably isn't really a big deal.

The odds of getting into a gunfight in your house are pretty damn slim, and the marginal difference between the rack / no rack probably gets a lot more play than it deserves.

If it makes them feel better, then that's cool. Im not a big fan of manually clambering a round every single time I shoot, so I just shoved my pump gun in the back of the safe. For me, it's way easier to lock up a pistol in my bedroom than a long gun.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:10 am

Stercutus wrote:
Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.
However, those same departments often have policies about keeping the shotgun (and/ or rifle) chamber empty in patrol units that carry them. :clownshoes:
So, every officer is required to check the cruiser at the beginning of the shift... there was this officer who did this, walked the car to make sure there were no new dents, but he didn't feel like taking the shotgun out of the rack to check it, so to see if it was staged in condition two, he pressed the trigger. What he was unaware of was that the officer on the shift previous to his had taken the shotgun out of the rack, cycled it, and in the excitement of the arrest and such, forgot to clear the chamber and racked it with the round still in the chamber. The next officer then did as was his habit and pressed the trigger, because you know, there's nothing in the chamber, and blew a nice hole in the roof of his patrol car.

I tell that story simply because, most departments carry the SG with an unloaded chamber because--let's face it--the "safety" on a shotgun sucks, and is dangerous for tactical use and an empty chamber is the best way to carry a SG in a patrol car or in your house. I suspect that part of the SRD myth comes from this practice and the presence of the officer is actually the fight stopper more than the racking of the slide.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:10 am

Now that, I'd believe. The cop showing up with a shotgun being the fight stopping element over the sound of the shotgun racking.

That's probably where the whole thing started too. Someone asked a cop in a gun store what to get to which they replied "Get a shotgun, you rack it and the bad guy will stop.*"

*If you have a badge, uniform and the full weight of the justice system behind you.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Dave_M » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:16 am

The common public misconception of the shotgun's, 'cone of death' only works to the advantage of the officer.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Stercutus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:07 pm

doc66 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.
However, those same departments often have policies about keeping the shotgun (and/ or rifle) chamber empty in patrol units that carry them. :clownshoes:
So, every officer is required to check the cruiser at the beginning of the shift... there was this officer who did this, walked the car to make sure there were no new dents, but he didn't feel like taking the shotgun out of the rack to check it, so to see if it was staged in condition two, he pressed the trigger. What he was unaware of was that the officer on the shift previous to his had taken the shotgun out of the rack, cycled it, and in the excitement of the arrest and such, forgot to clear the chamber and racked it with the round still in the chamber. The next officer then did as was his habit and pressed the trigger, because you know, there's nothing in the chamber, and blew a nice hole in the roof of his patrol car.

I tell that story simply because, most departments carry the SG with an unloaded chamber because--let's face it--the "safety" on a shotgun sucks, and is dangerous for tactical use and an empty chamber is the best way to carry a SG in a patrol car or in your house. I suspect that part of the SRD myth comes from this practice and the presence of the officer is actually the fight stopper more than the racking of the slide.
When two idiots meet under poor policy the result is likely to be chaos.

I think within 20 years the shotgun will be gone from most police departments or relegated to a niche role as in the military. Some will hang on to it just like some held on to the revolver for forever but most will get rid of it.
Gingerbread Man wrote:Now that, I'd believe. The cop showing up with a shotgun being the fight stopping element over the sound of the shotgun racking.

That's probably where the whole thing started too. Someone asked a cop in a gun store what to get to which they replied "Get a shotgun, you rack it and the bad guy will stop.*"

*If you have a badge, uniform and the full weight of the justice system behind you.
Seems a good a guess as any and likely an important qualifier. I think a lot of people will be more inclined to believe a cop will shoot them than just anyone. Unless they just committed strong arm robbery for a box of blunts.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Actually, when people don't follow policy, that is what happens.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:59 pm

doc66 wrote: So, every officer is required to check the cruiser at the beginning of the shift... there was this officer who did this, walked the car to make sure there were no new dents, but he didn't feel like taking the shotgun out of the rack to check it, so to see if it was staged in condition two, he pressed the trigger. What he was unaware of was that the officer on the shift previous to his had taken the shotgun out of the rack, cycled it, and in the excitement of the arrest and such, forgot to clear the chamber and racked it with the round still in the chamber. The next officer then did as was his habit and pressed the trigger, because you know, there's nothing in the chamber, and blew a nice hole in the roof of his patrol car.
We had at least one of those every year, along with in the air versions too, both in station parking lots, and in the field after calls.
doc66 wrote: I tell that story simply because, most departments carry the SG with an unloaded chamber because--let's face it--the "safety" on a shotgun sucks, and is dangerous for tactical use and an empty chamber is the best way to carry a SG in a patrol car or in your house. I suspect that part of the SRD myth comes from this practice and the presence of the officer is actually the fight stopper more than the racking of the slide.
I think that is the most logical explanation, though I can definitely say not everyone I encountered was as impressed by either the sound or what made it.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:14 pm

400 Grains wrote:
doc66 wrote: I can definitely say not everyone I encountered was as impressed by either the sound or what made it.
Right? Been there!
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:25 pm

Stercutus wrote:Seems a good a guess as any and likely an important qualifier. I think a lot of people will be more inclined to believe a cop will shoot them than just anyone. Unless they just committed strong arm robbery for a box of blunts.
There's also the concept that the cop is less likely to shoot because of fear of the aftermath. Sometimes that's the case, and we had cops killed because they didn't shoot when they should have.

On the other hand, if I had shot every moron that said "go ahead and shoot me Mother F*cker" the coroner would have had to hire more people......

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Stercutus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:29 pm

doc66 wrote:Actually, when people don't follow policy, that is what happens.
I was talking about the policy of sharing weapons. This is usually not a good idea.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:05 pm

Stercutus wrote:
doc66 wrote:Actually, when people don't follow policy, that is what happens.
I was talking about the policy of sharing weapons. This is usually not a good idea.
Ah, most smaller departments do simply leave shit in cars since they don't have enough $$ for outfitting each officer with personal issue firearms, other than sidearms. If you have a department with 120 officers, they don't have an Armorer per se and each shotgun is issued to the car, rather than an officer. When a department is running 20 cars for 3 shifts--or even four cars for three shifts, depending on department size, it's logistically easier to leave the cars outfitted and make the officers responsible for the precheck and safety of the car.

I might be telling you stuff you know, but most people don't know about this stuff. Sheriff departments usually issue cars and equipment to deputies so that more area can be covered in a shift, so a deputy technically signs on when they step out to the car. I know that the Ohio State Highway Patrol did the same thing.

In mid and small-sized police departments everybody gets to fuck with everything.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:44 pm

doc66 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
doc66 wrote:Actually, when people don't follow policy, that is what happens.
I was talking about the policy of sharing weapons. This is usually not a good idea.
Ah, most smaller departments do simply leave shit in cars since they don't have enough $$ for outfitting each officer with personal issue firearms, other than sidearms. If you have a department with 120 officers, they don't have an Armorer per se and each shotgun is issued to the car, rather than an officer. When a department is running 20 cars for 3 shifts--or even four cars for three shifts, depending on department size, it's logistically easier to leave the cars outfitted and make the officers responsible for the precheck and safety of the car.

I might be telling you stuff you know, but most people don't know about this stuff. Sheriff departments usually issue cars and equipment to deputies so that more area can be covered in a shift, so a deputy technically signs on when they step out to the car. I know that the Ohio State Highway Patrol did the same thing.

In mid and small-sized police departments everybody gets to fuck with everything.
Even in my large department, we checked out shotguns everyday. Potluck.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by MaconCJ7 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:01 pm

I was under the impression that the shotgun had already been relegated to *special duty*. Breaching and the such. I was under the impression that the North Hollywood shootout was the timer and that 9/11 was the detonation of the removal of the shotgun from a general purpose role. I can quite easily be mistaken, but all of the leo folks I know don't have a shotgun, but do have an AR15 or .mil/leo equivalent.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:31 am

400 Grains wrote:Even in my large department, we checked out shotguns everyday. Potluck.
Central armorer? Lucky... sort of. Sometime it's a guy who knows what he's doing, sometimes it's the guy closest to retirement who just hates going out on the street anymore.

We had a guy--me--who just did function checks on everything. If something was out of whack, I had to call the official--nameyourbrand--armorer and take it out of service.



MaconCJ7; They are almost done. But still in the cars in a lot of places. Even with Gov't handouts, you still have to train officers with the weapon, and there are a lot of departments who won't spend the money to train officers.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:15 am

doc66 wrote:
400 Grains wrote:Even in my large department, we checked out shotguns everyday. Potluck.
Central armorer? Lucky... sort of. Sometime it's a guy who knows what he's doing, sometimes it's the guy closest to retirement who just hates going out on the street anymore.

We had a guy--me--who just did function checks on everything. If something was out of whack, I had to call the official--nameyourbrand--armorer and take it out of service.
No, we just took them from a rack and checked them back in on a sign in/out sheet. You were responsible for doing the 5 point check every time and writing therm up if there was anything wrong with them. Most of them were in pretty crappy shape, and often there weren't enough to go around because of problems taking guns out of service. My last few years we finally approved personally owned SG's and many of us carried our own. Much better.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:20 am

MaconCJ7 wrote:I was under the impression that the shotgun had already been relegated to *special duty*. Breaching and the such. I was under the impression that the North Hollywood shootout was the timer and that 9/11 was the detonation of the removal of the shotgun from a general purpose role. I can quite easily be mistaken, but all of the leo folks I know don't have a shotgun, but do have an AR15 or .mil/leo equivalent.
No, in many areas departments still have them in the cars, but allow officers to carry personally owned carbines. Some have double racks and always carry both, CHP for example. Some carry two shotguns, one being used for a dedicated less lethal gun.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Manimal2878 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:32 am

Stercutus wrote:
Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.
However, those same departments often have policies about keeping the shotgun (and/ or rifle) chamber empty in patrol units that carry them. :clownshoes:
I see that more as a gun in storage rather than a carried gun.
Last edited by Manimal2878 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Dabster » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:23 pm

I know what you're talking about but I have no idea what SRD stands for. I googled it (http://www.acronymfinder.com/SRD.html) and I am baffled between the connection between a Scottish Rite Dormitory and the mis-perceived deterrent value of the pump action shotgun.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by 400 Grains » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:51 pm

Manimal2878 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Lets ask this: Is there any police dept. in the US that has their officers carry with an empty chamber, and then use racking their handgun as a means of compliance and as a step in force escalation? I doubt it. And I think we can all easily see why, the same logic should apply to shotguns.
However, those same departments often have policies about keeping the shotgun (and/ or rifle) chamber empty in patrol units that carry them. :clownshoes:
I see that more as a gun in storage rather than a carried gun.
I'm not aware of any department, at least on the west coast, that keeps shotguns in cars with loaded chambers. Most of them have the same policy for rifles.

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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by doc66 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:43 pm

Dabster wrote:I know what you're talking about but I have no idea what SRD stands for. I googled it (http://www.acronymfinder.com/SRD.html) and I am baffled between the connection between a Scottish Rite Dormitory and the mis-perceived deterrent value of the pump action shotgun.
I coined the term just for this post.

Shotgun Racking Deterrent= SRD

I'm clever that way. LOL
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Turtlewolf » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:59 pm

I am a huge supporter of the shotgun in the defensive role, the 12 gauge Remington 870 was the first center fire I ever shot about twenty five years ago and it has been a loveing relationship since that day. However, there are some severe limitations to the 12 gauge such as range, recoil, magazine size (in Canada with a pump we can run any ammount we want, with all center fire semis we are limited to five) and wieght/bulk of ammunition-not to mention cost of proper buckshot or slug loads.
Within about fifteen meters there simply isn't another firearm that lays as much hate that is available on the current Canadian market and 2.75" 00 buck penetrates a lot of soft material at short range (I've seen it penetrate full broadside on a mature whitetail deer at about forty meters-give or take-but that was a 28" full choke barrel) and I know what my current "camping" shotgun is capable of at what range, how fast I recover from recoil and just how fast I can cycle through the magazine tube and reload.
This is something I've been doing for years though, I don't think the shotgun is a good choice for a firearm newbie to start out with. It is a specialty weapon IMHO.
What about body armor? Aren't felons wearing hard body plates these days? Dosen't that negate the shotgun as a defensive weapon?
No.
Shoot them in the groin, shotgun, rifle or pistol it dosen't matter-face or groin.
Notice I didn't mention racking the weapon as a warning?
It's a dumb ass idea, once you have picked up your firearm I was taught you were commited. You shoot straight, fast and negate the threat in the most positive manner possible.
But what experience could I have, being a loving Canadian and all? :twisted: :clap:
Lets just say that I haven't had a critter ever come back for more.
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Re: SRD; defend this. please.

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:11 am

procyon wrote:
doc66 wrote: Shotgun Racking Deterrent ... I'm interested to know the logic behind this thought, if there is any true logic.
There is logic behind it.

#1. The sound of the shotgun action being worked lets them know I am about to fire at them a second time, and if they aren't dead yet they may want to leave before they are.
I like your logic. :mrgreen:
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