MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Forum dedicated for rifles and shotguns from basic to tactical.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
tommygun
* * * * *
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:47 am
Location: Kansas City Mo

MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by tommygun » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:56 pm

If any of you remember the original MINI 14 FLAME WAR, you know how awesome it was. I, and a select few people ardently defended the MINI 14 rifle, as a go to gun for the PAW. Unfortunately MOST people on here fervently disagreed. That's ok...to each their own so to speak. For those who don't know the wonders of the flame war, peruse to your hearts content.
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... +FLAME+WAR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Off Duty Ninja sent me this link:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... rmy-was-w/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a retired Major General of the US Army saying how much of a piece of crap the M16/AR15 is. I only wish this report would've come out while the original flame war was alive.

LET THE FLAME WAR BEGIN!

NOT JUST MY OPINION, do with it what you will. LOLOLOL :mrgreen:
Behold a pale horse, and the name of him who sat upon it was Death, and Hell followed with him.

theomegaman.org

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5218
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over Metropolis

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:55 pm

Talk about a guy who can't let shit go...

Thanks to FUAC, the Mini-14 and 30 in its plain vanilla form is the only service type rifle legal, and hicaps don't exist here. Demand for it is ridiculously high.

On the plus side, Bill Ruger's influence has vastly diminished since his demise, and the Ranch Rifle has been product improved. The newest rifles of 581 and 582 series, with a TINY bit of tweaking, can perform within the AR15's envelope range and accuracy wise.
Pro-Mag steel 20 rounders can perform reliably, also with a tiny bit of tweaking.
Tapco Gen II and the upcoming Gen III magazines.

On the minus side, they are nowhere near as "inexpensive" as they used to be, especially thanks to Generation II Bans. Cali, Conn and FNY Minis are in high demand, commanding street prices exceeding 800 bucks. Ruger remains lawsuit averse, and with the exception of VERY few gunsmiths spare parts just don't exist. ARs, for all their faults are a dime a dozen now and even Ruger makes them as well as a .308 version. Pmags for 9-10 bucks with GIs about the same? 400 dollar ARs are now possible, though it will be a while before I can trust a polymer frame firing a service rifle cartridge.

BTW, if you read your own link, the troops are NOT looking to simply dump the rifles they were trained with, the Green Mountain Reliability Product Improvement Kit solves all the problems but one; the barrel.

The 14.5 inch barrel simply lacks range, especially compared to the USMC's M16A4 with a 20 inch barrel. The short barrel, because its tapping the gas at a different point pressure and volume wise compared to a rifle length barrel, creates action issues. Not seeing Marines complaining about their rifle. Even the current Minis could not make up barrel length. Don't even think of mentioning the Target version. Adding almost 2 pounds just to the barrel would not be worth it.

The current military M16 has not been the recipient of serious product improvement since 1993. Colt and FN have been remiss in not incorporating upgrades that companies like LWRC, Larue, CMMG. Even Ruger offers a piston AR these days. Perhaps you've heard of it?

http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556Standard/models.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by jor-el on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:55 pm

Oh come on gang not this again.

I think that this issue speaks more to a parts quality control issue and R&M issue for the military armories than a design issue. If you maintain any fire arm with recycled used parts, cheap pot metal parts, paperclips and paper mache they will not work well.

BTW military have been buying their own gear forever. My grandfather and father carried their own personal 1911 in ww-1 and ww-2 respectively because they considered the military issued pistols (and holsters) to be "garbage". I am sure there were Roman Legionaires who bought their own swords.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:58 pm

tommygun wrote: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... rmy-was-w/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a retired Major General of the US Army saying how much of a piece of crap the M16/AR15 is. I only wish this report would've come out while the original flame war was alive.
Sounds to me like they want shiny new guns, and they're gonna throw a bitchfit until they get what they want. Nothing new about that.

ETA: I will bet my gun collection that the Mini 14 is nowhere on the list of guns they want to replace the M4A1.
Last edited by Doctorr Fabulous on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
Sworbeyegib
* * * * *
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:15 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead is what started it all for me
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Contact:

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:06 pm

It seems the majority of the gripe in the article is attributed to their dislike of the following.

-Effectiveness of the 5.56 round. Which if you are shooting a mini, is a moot point if you are shooting the same caliber. And if you are a civilian worrying about personal protection, you have the luxury of choosing a different caliber, or different style of ammunition to fit your need.

-Reliability issues and barrel problems when shooting an exceptionally large volume of automatic fire. Again, not an issue for the majority of civilian users out there.

-The fact that people were not allowed to use aftermarket parts to upgrade certain functions of their gun to make them run better. As a civilian we tailor our guns whatever way we want.

None of this really effects me. This seems to just be a rant by someone that refuses to believe that "you can't make everyone happy".
**Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't**

Image

feedthedog
* * * *
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by feedthedog » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:08 pm

raptor wrote:Oh come on gang not this again.

I think that this issue speaks more to a parts quality control issue and R&M issue for the military armories than a design issue. If you maintain any fire arm with recycled used parts, cheap pot metal parts, paperclips and paper mache they will not work well.

BTW military have been buying their own gear forever. My grandfather and father carried their own personal 1911 in ww-1 and ww-2 respectively because they considered the military issued pistols (and holsters) to be "garbage". I am sure there were Roman Legionaires who bought their own swords.
If I'd had the option I would have carried a glock/XD instead of that monstrous M9.

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 17060
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:23 pm

feedthedog wrote: If I'd had the option I would have carried a glock/XD instead of that monstrous M9.
In ww-1 my grandfather was required by the Navy to buy and supply his own 1911, along with a uniform and other basic items. He had to borrow the money from his parents to buy these items (and they made him pay it back!).

In ww-2 anyone who could get the right permission document signed could bring their own firearm. My father somehow had my mother expedite a special leather via military channels. She sent it from NOLA and it got to him France in less than a week. BTW he carried his father's 1911 through the ETO. (or so I was told since I was not not even a glimmer in my father's eye then :lol: ).

I am not sure when the rules changed but I also know a Vietnam vet who said he carried his Winchester Model 70 with him to Vietnam.
Last edited by raptor on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Unorthodox
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:44 pm
Location: Richmond, VA
Contact:

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Unorthodox » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:26 pm

feedthedog wrote:
If I'd had the option I would have carried a glock/XD instead of that monstrous M9.
Joe blow grunt can't be trusted with a firearm that doesn't have a safety, dontchakno

As for this whole bloody thread hinging on the "ineffectiveness and unreliability of the AR/M16/M4 system" then:

Image
ImageImage
I load my gatteries in my assault clips for my AR-15 battle rifle. | Avatar By Nyssa

feedthedog
* * * *
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by feedthedog » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:27 pm

raptor wrote:
feedthedog wrote: If I'd had the option I would have carried a glock/XD instead of that monstrous M9.
In ww-1 my grandfather was required by the Navy to buy and supply his own 1911, along with a uniform and other basic items. He had to borrow the money from his parents to buy these items.

In ww-2 anyone who could get the right permission document signed could bring their own firearm. My father somehow had my mother expedite a special leather via military channels. She sent it from NOLA and it got to him France in less than a week. (or so I was told since I was not not even a glimmer in my father's eye then :lol: ).

I am not sure when the rules changed but I also know a Vietnam vet who said he carried his Winchester Model 70 with him to Vietnam.
Someone more knowledgeable than me could probably tell you when things changed, but I would have been in big trouble. "Excuse me CPT, why are you the only soldier in Iraq carrying an XD9?"
"Ummmmm... I brought this from home?"
"The BN CDR would like to speak with you"

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5218
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over Metropolis

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:29 pm

Now Ruger does offer a couple of caliber choices beyond the basic 5.56.
7.62x39? 582 series updated the firing pins so they should be GTG even with steel berdan case.

6.8 SPC? Sadly, this is being phased out due to a lack of popularity for the cartridge and so-so accuracy of the 580 barrels.

If more people join the .300 BLK bandwagon, expect to see Ruger offer it. Its almost literally a 5.56 necked up to .308 with almost identical ballistics to the 7.62x39.

Still, the AR-15's Lego-like adaptability to change or add almost anything on it will keep it at the forefront of the gun safe, especially if Ruger continues to restrict access to spare parts. I'm sure I mentioned this like 9 years ago, or the last time you started this.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:39 pm

raptor wrote:
feedthedog wrote: If I'd had the option I would have carried a glock/XD instead of that monstrous M9.
In ww-1 my grandfather was required by the Navy to buy and supply his own 1911, along with a uniform and other basic items. He had to borrow the money from his parents to buy these items (and they made him pay it back!).
We still buy our own uniforms. The reason given for no personal ammo/weapons was Geneva/Hague something something. There's also the "you use what we give you so if it doesn't work, it's on us and not on you." DOD won't pay out disability or death benefits if the injury or death was related to a failure of non-approved/non-issued gear, such as non-ballistic eyewear or dying because you didn't put one of your SAPIs in your plate carrier. That's all based on reading the orders at the BN/Reg level and the JAG briefs. There's also the supply chain (who's gonna bring extra XD mags for you?) and import/export (NO I SWEAR I BROUGHT THIS AK WITH ME SIR) to stack on top of it. Logistics is already a major pain in the ass, and I can't see allowing guys to BYOG making it easier.

Also, I absolutely believe that if everyone was running around with Glocks and shit, there would be far too many NDs. We barely had enough time to get the gunners and S&O trained on the M9.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5218
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over Metropolis

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:47 pm

Now, since my suggestion of a 6.8 mini appeared to have garnered results, here's some druthers to add to the Mini PIP. Ruger listen up.

1. Nitride coating. Others are using this instead of chrome lining for the following reasons:
Easy to apply, or easier than chrome. More durable than chrome. Better metal to metal lubricity than chrome. Could easily replace bluing because its black in color. Could easily make all your rifles last longer because of added rust resistance even on carbon steel arms.

2. Stripper clip guide as part of the rifle. You know this is coming; bans that require fixed mags. Better to head off the aftermarket than get the inevitable customer complaints.

3. Get rid of those 580 series sights. Tech Sights makes half their money off you because those 580 sights SUCK!
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

User avatar
Dave_M
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 15976
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:30 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Dave_M » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:21 am

Retired flag officers only speak to the press for political or monetary gain.

I wonder which uber-rifle manufacturer he has a stake in.
Image
Dave Merrill
Instructor for MilCopp Tactical LLC.

Rifle first. Rifle last. Rifle always.
Civilian Scout wrote:No one buys a Taurus because it's the best option available.

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5218
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over Metropolis

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by jor-el » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:43 am

Not quite going the direction you intended, eh tommygun?

Maybe you should post this here:

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a more Mini friendly crowd.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

User avatar
Kommander
* * * * *
Posts: 4274
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:38 am
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Kommander » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:48 am

I saw this recently on another forum and I would hope that most here would be able to see through the blatant lies and half truths that are in this article. The real question one should ask themselves is that if the media can screw up a fairly simple article about a single type of inanimate object what else are they getting wrong that you don't know about?
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

User avatar
alptraum
* * *
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by alptraum » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:04 am

Dave_M wrote:Retired flag officers only speak to the press for political or monetary gain.

I wonder which uber-rifle manufacturer he has a stake in.
I don't know...it's hard to disagree with him when he says it's ineffective against bunkers. That's a crucial requirement for a rifle, isn't it? I haven't shot a mini-14 in years, hows it do against bunkers?

Das Sheep
* * * *
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:50 pm

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Das Sheep » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:58 am

Dave_M wrote:Retired flag officers only speak to the press for political or monetary gain.

I wonder which uber-rifle manufacturer he has a stake in.
I read the article and had a similar though too, though mine was more along the lines of 'Which arms manufacturer is he a consultant at?"

User avatar
slicknickns
*
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:56 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later
Dawn of the Dead, 1977

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by slicknickns » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:32 am

The problem with the Mini is the problem with those who started buying AR's when they could first get the chance. Too often the Mini is compared to it. It's a great rifle, one that was once popular as a farmer's truck gun. It's a shame they've gone up so much in price and criticism, all due to assault weapons bans and the popularity of the AR series.

They've both got their place, but I let the Army hand the AR side of things, thank you very much.

I couldn't afford a Mini so I got a Saiga. The peasant's tractor gun :)
Image

User avatar
Boondock
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2691
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:37 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Boondock » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:52 am

Read the article. I'll agree with a few points, such as how the M-4 is nice for CQB, vehicle-mounted operations, etc. Yes, target range was more of an issue in Afghanistan than in Iraq.

However:
A Marine commando who served in Afghanistan praised the firearm but noted that it requires constant cleaning or becomes vulnerable to jamming. “The first thing you do back at camp is clean the gun,” he said.


Well. Yeah. I know Joe likes to check Facebook and upload YouTube videos immediately upon returning inside the wire, but maintenance and refit come first. Sorry, boys, priorities of work. Horse, saddle, man. Clean your weapons.
“It’s ineffective against vehicles, against bunkers.”
Yup. Totally agree. And during 12 years in the infantry, I can't recall doctrine advocating rifle fire for elimination of hard targets. Heavy crew served, AT rockets and grenades--there's plenty of other weapons for that purpose.
Last edited by Boondock on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gingerbread Man
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 10834
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 10:05 am

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:16 am

Just once I want someone to take a Mini and put 1000rds through it on camera. Then if it makes it through that toss it into a pile of sand and a puddle of mud just like they do with every other rifle. So far the only rifles I've seen survive this is the Hk G3, AUG, AR-15, Tavor, AK and the FAL. I maybe forgetting one.

Unless it's compared, it can not be compared. :|
Shrapnel wrote "nobody is trying to be a dick and give out warnings for every little thing" :|
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1icEssOUM

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:24 pm

slicknickns wrote:The problem with the Mini is the problem with those who started buying AR's when they could first get the chance. Too often the Mini is compared to it. It's a great rifle, one that was once popular as a farmer's truck gun. It's a shame they've gone up so much in price and criticism, all due to assault weapons bans and the popularity of the AR series.

They've both got their place, but I let the Army hand the AR side of things, thank you very much.

I couldn't afford a Mini so I got a Saiga. The peasant's tractor gun :)
The Saiga is a better budget gun, and for $800 you can buy or build a better AR than a Mini. Mini mags cost $25-35, Pmags and LAncer AWMs can be had for $10-$15. The more you add, the better (and cheaper) the AR gets.

Ruger has priced the Mini out of competition where the AR is an option.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

feedthedog
* * * *
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by feedthedog » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:28 pm

Although I agree with all of the hate, I still want a mini. It's got most of the functionality of an evil rifle, but with wood furniture and a 20rd mag it looks fairly innocuous.

At a much lower price point, the mini would be fantastic. IMO, the problem has more to do with the price than the rifle itself.

User avatar
MaconCJ7
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 2251
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:28 am

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by MaconCJ7 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:28 pm

He said its 5.56-caliber bullet is too small and the gas-piston firing system is prone to stoppage. He said better weapons — the German Heckler-Koch G36 and Russian AK-74 (a version of the venerable AK-47) — use superior firing systems.
That pretty well sums up the entire article.
Image

User avatar
Gingerbread Man
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 10834
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 10:05 am

Re: MINI 14 FLAME WAR continued

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:01 pm

feedthedog wrote:Although I agree with all of the hate, I still want a mini. It's got most of the functionality of an evil rifle, but with wood furniture and a 20rd mag it looks fairly innocuous.

At a much lower price point, the mini would be fantastic. IMO, the problem has more to do with the price than the rifle itself.
I'm right there with you, I like the Mini too. I'd like to see them expand the calibers to include 300 BO, 458 SOCOM and 6.5 Grendel. That would be something else but saying it's better, nah.
Shrapnel wrote "nobody is trying to be a dick and give out warnings for every little thing" :|
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1icEssOUM

Post Reply

Return to “Longarms - Shotguns and Rifles”