ACOG Advice

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Chris@MTCT » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:51 am

Boondock wrote:Yup, you can totally use the ACOG for range estimation. In fact, that's the only thing I really had one for during my tour in A-Stan. I'll add that I didn't like the ACOG for engaging moving targets at night within ranges of 25-50 meters.

Which is where the IR laser comes into play.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Alpha-17 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:38 am

Chris@MTCT wrote:Yes you can use the ACOG to range a target since the horizontal marks are the same width of an average torso at a given distance.

Just like you can do with mil dots just with out all the math. While not as accurate as mils it's close enough for government work.
Couldn't have said it better. The problem with Range E with an ACOG is it seems that most people using them (in my experience) really have no idea how to use them correctly. They're handed an M4 with an ACOG on it, told to go zero it at 25m, and it's expected that that's good enough. Very few people know to do the hold off for a 25m zero (even though it's actually printed on the newer ACOGs), and fewer still know how to use the ACOG for Range E. It's something I've tried to correct when I've encountered it, but for your average PVT Joe Snuffy or even PSG, an ACOG is just another sight, not something worthy of a class on.

(End Rant)
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:45 am

Unsure how anyone that's in an infantry MOS could deploy without being properly trained on range estimation with their issued combat optic.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:47 am

Alpha-17 wrote:
Chris@MTCT wrote:Yes you can use the ACOG to range a target since the horizontal marks are the same width of an average torso at a given distance.

Just like you can do with mil dots just with out all the math. While not as accurate as mils it's close enough for government work.
Couldn't have said it better. The problem with Range E with an ACOG is it seems that most people using them (in my experience) really have no idea how to use them correctly. They're handed an M4 with an ACOG on it, told to go zero it at 25m, and it's expected that that's good enough. Very few people know to do the hold off for a 25m zero (even though it's actually printed on the newer ACOGs), and fewer still know how to use the ACOG for Range E. It's something I've tried to correct when I've encountered it, but for your average PVT Joe Snuffy or even PSG, an ACOG is just another sight, not something worthy of a class on.

(End Rant)
That's the definition of an NCO failure. As soon as we got them, the mantra "there to here, tip of the spear" became second nature, as did practicing range estimation (the best sue for a charger with 19" rims to date) and it generally got drilled into us how to use it. Frequent (more than just the annual rifle qaul) shooting beyond the 300m mark helped.

Don't hate the optic because some the users didn't get trained on it. A huge part of the AR hate is dumb users or untrained halfwits failing proper maintenance and useage, so if we're throwing out the ACOG because a few Joes had shit NCOs, then we're throwing out 223 because of improper ammo selection and DI guns due to improper maintenance and lubrication protocols. If you're gonna hate the ACOG, hate it because it's a bloody expensive fixed power optic and sorta heavy for what it is.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Chris@MTCT » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:48 am

Alpha-17 wrote:
Chris@MTCT wrote:Yes you can use the ACOG to range a target since the horizontal marks are the same width of an average torso at a given distance.

Just like you can do with mil dots just with out all the math. While not as accurate as mils it's close enough for government work.
Couldn't have said it better. The problem with Range E with an ACOG is it seems that most people using them (in my experience) really have no idea how to use them correctly. They're handed an M4 with an ACOG on it, told to go zero it at 25m, and it's expected that that's good enough. Very few people know to do the hold off for a 25m zero (even though it's actually printed on the newer ACOGs), and fewer still know how to use the ACOG for Range E. It's something I've tried to correct when I've encountered it, but for your average PVT Joe Snuffy or even PSG, an ACOG is just another sight, not something worthy of a class on.

(End Rant)
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Boondock » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:10 am

Chris@MTCT wrote:Which is where the IR laser comes into play.
True. In my case, unfortunately, my PEQ was destroyed by shrapnel. Reflexive fire training took over at that point. Not trying to hate on the ACOG, though.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:49 am

Alpha-17 wrote:
Chris@MTCT wrote:Yes you can use the ACOG to range a target since the horizontal marks are the same width of an average torso at a given distance.

Just like you can do with mil dots just with out all the math. While not as accurate as mils it's close enough for government work.
Couldn't have said it better. The problem with Range E with an ACOG is it seems that most people using them (in my experience) really have no idea how to use them correctly. They're handed an M4 with an ACOG on it, told to go zero it at 25m, and it's expected that that's good enough. Very few people know to do the hold off for a 25m zero (even though it's actually printed on the newer ACOGs), and fewer still know how to use the ACOG for Range E. It's something I've tried to correct when I've encountered it, but for your average PVT Joe Snuffy or even PSG, an ACOG is just another sight, not something worthy of a class on.

(End Rant)
What's "Range E"?

We had ironnsights on our M16A2s back when I was ready to fight the Soviet Union... optics were something that only the odd sniper with an M21 had. And, lasers on a rifle? That was science fiction!
Last edited by Akin on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Boondock » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:04 pm

Akin wrote:We had ironnsights on our M16A2s back when I was ready to foght the Soviet Union... Optics were something that only the odd sniper with an M21 had. And, lasers on a rifle? That was science fiction!
Ditto, I remember those days, too. You'll encounter a bit of a learning curve adjusting to the ACOG and most of the other whiz-bang gizmos the kids are using downrange these days. But with practice, it's good stuff, for the most part.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Haji » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:01 pm

What's "Range E"?
Short for Range Estimation.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by jackal556 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:31 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: If you're gonna hate the ACOG, hate it because it's a bloody expensive fixed power optic and sorta heavy for what it is.
@ Doctorr- What sights are on your list of recommendations in the area of a combat gunsight? (I'll leave that question open ended like that.)
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:32 pm

jackal556 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: If you're gonna hate the ACOG, hate it because it's a bloody expensive fixed power optic and sorta heavy for what it is.
@ Doctorr- What sights are on your list of recommendations in the area of a combat gunsight? (I'll leave that question open ended like that.)

Really? This is ACOG advise, you're gonna derail it.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:34 pm

jackal556 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: If you're gonna hate the ACOG, hate it because it's a bloody expensive fixed power optic and sorta heavy for what it is.
@ Doctorr- What sights are on your list of recommendations in the area of a combat gunsight? (I'll leave that question open ended like that.)
Limited field to work with, as there several (Most Aimpoints, some of the other Eotechs, anything more expensive than an ACOG) that I've never used for any length of time. The Eotech XPS I liked, but it was a bit heavy and the battery life was a turn off. The M2 and M4 to me seem okay, but I've yet to find that they do something for me that a Micro doesn't. Obviously the ACOG, and Dave's right about the TA-11 (NTCH can be a bit of a literal pain in the neck), but price hurts.

If I had to pick a "do it all" optic, it would be an ACOG. Weight and price be damned, it got picked because it does what it does very well, and the next step up (Leupy HAMR or the ELCAN stuff) is double the price and even heavier without adding as much capability. If I had to pick a generalist optic and I live somewhere rather like Florida where intermediate range shots are less likely than a zero-to-motherfucker range shootout, something like an AP Micro, an M4, or one of those new Insight RDS's I've been lusting after would do the job.

As a DM (or anyone who's looking for a 200-600m rifle), there are plenty of options by way of scopes, but an illuminated 1-6 has been my favorite. 1-6 just doesn't give you enough for low-percentage shots, and the extra power helps for target ID. Pretty much all the Micro-RDS's should work as an offset. Irons as a backup are well and good but the only reason to remove a scope to go to irons in a combat situation is that your optic is fucked. The offset if for when you need to have a rapid aiming solution at close range RIGHT NOW, and a QD scope mount and irons don't give you that. As far as scopes, I was pretty impressed with the Trji I tried (think it was a 1-6 dual-illum but not entirely sure) on my buddy's rifle. I keep hearing good things from Vortex's higher-end stuff (Razor HD and the like) and I like the PFI 1-4 I picked up too. Haven't been impressed with some of the Leupold optics I've had (forget which one was on our DMRs, but it was a 4-12 mildot I was not too fond of) although they have some intriguing designs out there.

Tried to keep it on topic in the realm of when to ACOG and when to not ACOG.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Kutter_0311 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:55 pm

Boondock wrote:
Akin wrote:We had ironnsights on our M16A2s back when I was ready to foght the Soviet Union... Optics were something that only the odd sniper with an M21 had. And, lasers on a rifle? That was science fiction!
Ditto, I remember those days, too. You'll encounter a bit of a learning curve adjusting to the ACOG and most of the other whiz-bang gizmos the kids are using downrange these days. But with practice, it's good stuff, for the most part.
Since I'm still more iron sight savvy than optic oriented, here's a point to help transfer back and forth...

The front sight post on an A2 = 19" @ 500yds = about 1 BG's chest at max range for a point target.

Each rung on an ACOG's BDC = 19" @ whatever range it says = 1 BG's chest at that range.

See, each one has its own method of range estimation, irons just lack all the bells and whistles
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coldwater wrote:
Boondock wrote:
coldwater wrote:I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause.
I'm more than 99% positive that you are thinking of another type of optic.
Nope. I jumped with an acog. My first deployment. They have been building red dots for a long time.
The TA-31 didn't exist in 1989. Yes, technology has changed in 24 years, and the ACOG you jumped with is not the ACOG currently issued.
I remember seeing that ACOG in the US Cav catalogs. Wow.

Not as neat as the one I had (and sold), but the beginning of something I like quite a lot.

IMO, ACOG + RMR = WTFBBQ

While I haven't done crazy training with it, I did try out my ACOG as an RDS at close range, and it works. How well it works and how well you need it to work are things you'll have to figure out for yourself, but I'm happy with it as an 'all around' optic. It does everything good enough not to need any other optics cluttering up your rifle, or further emptying your wallet. One day, I'll try one on my SGL...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Sgt Phillips » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:57 am

you wont regret the ACOG, great optic, no worry about it failing as it don't need anyhing but light to work. and if your worried about CQB they make one with a reflex on the top, it's like an extra 400 but it's worth it for the best.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by jackal556 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:35 pm

Sgt Phillips wrote:you wont regret the ACOG, great optic, no worry about it failing as it don't need anyhing but light to work. and if your worried about CQB they make one with a reflex on the top, it's like an extra 400 but it's worth it for the best.
Welcome Sgt Phillips! I think we discussed that model earlier in the thread somewhere.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:17 pm

Aaaaand the thread rises from the dead!

I never did pull the trigger on a scope back July, but between Black Friday sales and the upcoming SAR West gun show, I WILL pick up a new scope.

I'm currently leaning towards the Aimpoint Micro T1 with a LaRue mount... but, which MOA is best? 2 or 4 Anticipated use is against zombies, from OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT range out to a couple of hundred yards... well, okay, probably paper and steel plates, but you know what I mean...

I still want to get some kind of optic that doesn't need batteries at some point, as resupply could be an issue once the dead rise, but one thing at a time.

Damn, this optics business can cause ulcers!!! Its so much money that a wrong decision can be devasting!
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:32 am

Akin wrote:Aaaaand the thread rises from the dead!

I never did pull the trigger on a scope back July, but between Black Friday sales and the upcoming SAR West gun show, I WILL pick up a new scope.

I'm currently leaning towards the Aimpoint Micro T1 with a LaRue mount... but, which MOA is best? 2 or 4 Anticipated use is against zombies, from OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT range out to a couple of hundred yards... well, okay, probably paper and steel plates, but you know what I mean...

I still want to get some kind of optic that doesn't need batteries at some point, as resupply could be an issue once the dead rise, but one thing at a time.
I have several T1's and H1's. I've been trading out my 4 MOA's for 2 MOA's. The 2 MOA seems fine for close up, and I like the smaller dot for distances. I might keep a 4 on my short house gun, but I'm not sure.

You can save money by getting the H1, if you don't need the T1's features.

I'm using the Daniel Defense fixed mounts for most of my Micros. I like how light and solid the mount is, and for me, I don't really think the QD mount is much of an advantage for an Aimpoint. Mine are co-witnessed with the sights, so even if the batteries died, I can sight through it. If I wanted to take it off, I can do it with a coin or any other flat object in about 5 seconds.

As far as the batteries, you can keep 10+ years worth in your pistol grip and still have room for cleaning gear, so I wouldn't sweat the battery issue.

I'm waiting for a 1-4X Aimpoint the size of the M4s. Maybe a pipe dream, but that would sure be perfect.
Akin wrote:Damn, this optics business can cause ulcers!!! Its so much money that a wrong decision can be devasting!
When you buy quality, and you don't pay full retail, you aren't going to be risking that much. The resale value on good stuff like a micro is pretty good if for some reason you are crazy and don't like it. :wink:

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:52 am

So, what is the benefit or disadvantage of 2 vs. 4 MOA? I'm not entirely clear on that whole business...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:27 pm

Akin wrote:So, what is the benefit or disadvantage of 2 vs. 4 MOA? I'm not entirely clear on that whole business...
The farther away your target, the more each dot covers. A 4MOA dot covers 2x as much as a 2MOA dot, 4" at 100yd vs 2" at 100yd. That will make it harder to hit smaller targets (4MOA covers all but the most massive human heads at 200yd) but some find the larger dot easier to pick up.

Also unless you get a really good deal on the mount and AP together, look at the American Defense Manufacturing (ADM) mounts. Because fuck LaRue.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:50 pm

This one? http://www.americandefensemanufacturing ... oduct/208/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whats wrong with La Rue? Just overpriced, or something else?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:33 pm

Akin wrote:This one? http://www.americandefensemanufacturing ... oduct/208/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whats wrong with La Rue? Just overpriced, or something else?
That's the absolute cowitness model, yes.

http://www.primaryarms.com/American-Def ... adt111.htm

There's the lower 1/3rd model. The TL:DR with LaRue is that Mark is a dick and he uses Tea Party/Far Right Fundamentalist/Religious bumper stickers as packing material. After throwing a whole shit ton of bumper stickers, 'Dillo tools, and Dillo dust barbecue rub, t-shirts, hats, and other various "freebies" in with every order, he had the audacity to cut the military/LEO discount that really put him in the business to begin with, and blamed it on a political enemy in no uncertain terms. He still ships a bunch of "freebies" with each order. As far as I'm concerned, he's a liar in addition to making me seem like a polite motherfucker. The marks that his QD mounts leave on ARs don't make me a huge fan either. I don't baby my guns, but I don't intentionally fuck up my gun if I can do something else.

Also last time I checked, an H1 with an ADM or Daniel Defense mount from Primary Arms was about $10 cheaper than the same package from LaRue with their mounts. The mounts sold alone, the LaRues are about $25-$35 more.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:50 pm

Hmmm... much to ponder.

Though, La Rue does have a T-1 and a mount combo for the same as most places sell a T-1 alone for, so it's a lot cheaper than buying a sight and a mount... http://www.laruetactical.com/aimpoint-m ... ount-combo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eighty or ninety bucks cheaper, unless there's another combo deal out there? I'm no fan of marring my weapon needlessly... but then again, I'll rarely remove the sight and likely replace it quickly, so it won't be very noticeable...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:02 am

Akin wrote:Hmmm... much to ponder.

Though, La Rue does have a T-1 and a mount combo for the same as most places sell a T-1 alone for, so it's a lot cheaper than buying a sight and a mount... http://www.laruetactical.com/aimpoint-m ... ount-combo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eighty or ninety bucks cheaper, unless there's another combo deal out there? I'm no fan of marring my weapon needlessly... but then again, I'll rarely remove the sight and likely replace it quickly, so it won't be very noticeable...
https://www.primaryarms.com/ProductDeta ... ode=200018

H1 I was talking about, $10 cheaper with the ADM or DD mount. Do you jump with your rifle, run it with PVS14s, or do maritime operations where you need to dive? If not, the T1 is wasting $10. It's not like anyone can look at it and go "OMG T1 SO HSLD!" because they look the same. Maybe it's just me, but it's like paying for a Noveske lower that doesn't say Noveske. YMMV.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:19 am

Hah! I'm more LSHD these days, but we do use NVGs at work from time to time, at some of our more interesting assignments, and the possibility of me needing to get the AR out of the trunk is much higher on those gigs... and anyway it's only a matter of time before I buy my own for fighting zombies, who am I kidding...

So, the 1/3 cowitness is kind of preferred? I'm used to flipping down the front sight while using optics on my piston rifle, so this'll be a first for my when I slap this on my M4gery
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Lt. Colonel Jeff Cooper

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