ACOG Advice

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:37 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:I don't think anyone was suggesting an ACOG was BEST for home defense, as stated, they serve best on general purpose weapons. They're a jack of all trades optic.
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I didnt say ACOG was best served on general purpose weapons. I used the "home defense" scenario because the marksmanship required is fast, accurate shots at close range. Something the ACOG is very ill suited for. Is it "good enough"? sure. i personally am not willing to bet the lives of the people i love on "good enough". Akin asked a specific question and i was highlighting the pros and cons of the ACOG and red dot sight. The ACOG is a special purpose optic by design. For instance, I was issued an ACOG and when i deployed to Afghanistan I replaced it with an EOTech XPS. 6-7 months later I shot a bad guy in the head from the standing position at about 220yds on my 4th shot with witnesses present. My team and I was then tasked to clear the structure of remaining bad guys. If i would kept my ACOG i would have been able to watch all my misses under magnification and the bad guy would have most likely gotten away. The magnifacation of the ACOG would have magnified the bumps and jumps from my irregular breathing and adrenaline and would have made a good sight picture very difficult to aquire. One of the members of my team was shooting at the same guy and he had an ACOG on his rifle. He later told me that he stopped firing after the 8th round because he was frustrated that he couldnt hit the guy so he just took cover. my mate was bracing hisself against the truck while he was firing. Again, ACOGs are amazing optics. you wont get any argument from me on that. But they do have their place and standing up at 220yds while some booger-eating savage is shooting at you is not where you want to be.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:50 pm

I don't think you quite understood what I typed. I'm not trying to be combative, but it's like you didn't read it.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:55 pm

If I read that right, you dislike the ACOG because you can see when you're off target, and your squadmate stopped shooting because he couldn't hit the guy shooting at him? Lemme know if I misread that.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Paul J » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:17 pm

Doc, perhaps you should change your screen name to Doctorate of Jurisprudence :wink:
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:25 pm

Paul J wrote:Doc, perhaps you should change your screen name to Doctorate of Jurisprudence :wink:
Because...?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:29 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:If I read that right, you dislike the ACOG because you can see when you're off target, and your squadmate stopped shooting because he couldn't hit the guy shooting at him? Lemme know if I misread that.
You left out the head squishy thing with witnesses present. That nearly made my day and it has been quite a day. But I can agree with him on this:
standing up at 220yds while some booger-eating savage is shooting at you is not where you want to be
Doc, perhaps you should change your screen name to Doctorate of Jurisprudence :wink:
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Paul J » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:33 pm

Don't worry about it Doc, Just messing with you.


Bo, It's kind of bad form to talk about personal accomplishments in combat......stop it!...stop it right now!
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:02 pm

Paul J wrote:Don't worry about it Doc, Just messing with you.


Bo, It's kind of bad form to talk about personal accomplishments in combat......stop it!...stop it right now!
Not at all. My problem with his story is the conclusion drawn. He dislikes the ACOG because it would have made it easier to get a proper sight picture, and likes the EoTech because it allowed him to get a "good enough" sight picture and just spray until he hit. While I think an EoTech or Aimpoint would be a better choice for the OP, Bo's story makes no sense. At all.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Paul J » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:16 pm

Doc, I wasn,t being sarcastic, I was really admonishing Bo for bad form. Talking about what you personally did in combat= D baggery. Bo knows this he's just a shaved ape
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by DannusMaximus » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:45 pm

Doctorr Fabulous and Paul J and Bo R and Matt E exchanging shots in every other firearms thread = :|
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:47 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:Doctorr Fabulous and Paul J and Bo R and Matt E exchanging shots in every other firearms thread = :|
Rather than pointless smiley faces, why don't you weigh in on the discussion? Also if you show me where I "took a shot" I'll remove it, as I'm trying to focus on facts, tactics, and optics selection based on the mission parameters.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by DannusMaximus » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:51 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:Doctorr Fabulous and Paul J and Bo R and Matt E exchanging shots in every other firearms thread = :|
Rather than pointless smiley faces, why don't you weigh in on the discussion? Also if you show me where I "took a shot" I'll remove it, as I'm trying to focus on facts, tactics, and optics selection based on the mission parameters.
You're being deliberately obtuse if you claim you aren't taking shots and/or attempting to stir the pot, but that's your perogative.

I can't "weigh in on the discussion" because I don't have any experience with ACOGS. I can read this thread and try to gather useful information from it, and then become irritated because the same silly crap that got another interesting thread closed appears to be happening again.

And now, a few more pointless smiley faces...

:D :shock: :lol: :twisted:
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Paul J » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:36 pm

Dannus, Fair enough. I see your point.

So, OT I have used all of the optics mentioned in this thread (aimpoint in various incarnations and the EO, and ACOG) while deployed. On the last trip I started with an EO, had some issues with battery compartment and failure to hold zero, I was willing to put up with a lot for that 1 moa dot! However, it became apparent that most of our engagements were not taking place inside, rather most were streetfights anywhere from 150-250 meters and beyond. In addition it was often necessary to PID a threat before engaging (think is that guy looking at me with binos or just holding a drink up to his face) So I began using an ACOG as it covered down on our threat and mission better than the other available optics. The ACOG Excelled in this environment, , THe BDC was reliable out to 600m w match ammo, glass quality was superior,and never had an issue with losing zero. A few of the downsides were the reticle bloom Bo already spoke of, and of course it is considerably slower when you are Fishing. Full disclosure this next part is a personal anecdote so take it how you like, It seemed as if a lot of Soldiers using ACOGS believed the target to be further away than they were and would shoot high (just something to think about), All in all it was a great optic for that environment. I still have one but its on a DMR, my goto fighting carbine has a comp M3 on it, I was a little suspect of EOs after my last trip, but people who's opinion I trust tell me that EO has solved those problems and are GTG Specifically the XPS3 is where it's at.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:55 pm

Paul J wrote: It seemed as if a lot of Soldiers using ACOGS believed the target to be further away than they were and would shoot high (just something to think about), All in all it was a great optic for that environment.
I have seen this as well. The correction is to do frequent unknown distance shooting and practice shooting at different sized targets at different ranges. I'm not absolutely sold on the TA-31 BDC as it can be a bit hard to tell the difference between 500 and 600m when the target is dark colored. It's by no means a cure for learning range ID.

I had the XPS 3-something (the one with the three-dots on it) and I was less than impressed. I also get a bit of laser speckle, and the battery life was the real kicker for me. ACOG is on my "uh-oh" rifle in the case with the FiveSeveN with the other stuff as an all-purpose rig. The house rifle still wears an R1 because it works and I don't yet have a reason to replace it.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:25 pm

Doc-

I don't dislike the ACOG in the least. I was using it as an example of a lesson learned. I was asked to take an odd shot at longer than normal range and then I ended the day with clearing buildings. I may or may not have been good at the long range, but I would have been screwed inside a room. my point was you are more likely to use your rifle at close to medium range than you are at long range. unless its your job to shoot and identify targets at long range. then the ACOG takes the cake. that's all I was getting at. I didn't tell the story to draw attention to myself, I told it to illustrate the point that when your fighting house to house and street to street, you are more likely to enter a structure and you are more likely to run into the need to be fast and accurate at short range. some people believe that you cant achieve a headshot with a rifle at 200yds. some people question the necessity of training to take a headshot but what if that is the only thing that is exposed? This was all I hoped to achieve.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Dave_M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:51 pm

At close range, ACOGs are definitely slower, with a, 'but'. It also depends on the model used (some have better eye relief than others) but using the TA31F you pretty much always have to shoot NTCH. Unfortunately, one can't always shoot NTCH and the eye relief can be a bitch. Furthermore, if your dominant eye is very dominant, shooting occluded/BAC at close range, regardless of eye relief, can be very hard to get used to (or impossible). Phoria (google it) also means that shots when occluded may be horizontally strung and the only way to test this is by going out and shooting... A couple of ways to confront these problems (and introduce some limitations of their own) include:

-Using an ACOG with greater eye relief (people that are issued optics aren't really going to have that option) such as the TA11

-Installing a kill-flash device and sticking a flip-cover on it for use when occluded to kill the magnification/eye dominance issues (the TA33 doesn't require a kill-flash to do this because the end of the objective is round so a Butler Creek cover fits right on)

-Shitty rudimentary iron sights on top of ACOG

-Piggybacking a Dr/JPoint/RMR etc. Can run into HOB issues with this (and subsequent issues regarding that)

-Offsetting AP Micro/other in front of the ACOG. This is a good solution with a couple of, 'buts': Heavy. Expensive. Can only easily be used from dominant shoulder (one advantage of piggybacking versus offset is that it's ambidextrous).

Regarding bloom I always used some tape. If you want to get fancy you can buy one of these:
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Dave_M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:55 pm

Bo R. wrote:some people believe that you cant achieve a headshot with a rifle at 200yds.
Who in the heck believes that? :?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:47 am

Dave-
That has been a no shit argument on this forum... Matt E. can vouch for that arguments existance as well.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Dave_M » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:51 pm

Bo R. wrote:Dave-
That has been a no shit argument on this forum... Matt E. can vouch for that arguments existance as well.
Regardless of the existence of said argument (I suppose one can argue anything) I think it's a non sequitur in this discussion.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:49 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:RE: tape. Try using a bit of rubber and some rubber/plastic coated wire. I used electric tape with no problem.
I imagine Gaffer's tape would be ideal...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:37 pm

Dave_M wrote:
Bo R. wrote:some people believe that you cant achieve a headshot with a rifle at 200yds.
Who in the heck believes that? :?
Red Coats, Musketeers, Aztec's with Atlatl's. In other words dead people.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by chills1994 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:44 pm

Akin wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:RE: tape. Try using a bit of rubber and some rubber/plastic coated wire. I used electric tape with no problem.
I imagine Gaffer's tape would be ideal...
When we go to these major matches, the Match Director's like to be cheap ass's, so they supply the stage with two rolls of Target Barn brown paster tape. It's like masking tape, just brown to match the cardboard targets, instead of the typical ivory or off-white masking tape. They use the tape because the guys with CED paster guns will steal and walk off with a whole roll of the paster stickers. Anywhooo....my point being that the brown paster tape works well for covering the fiber optic rod on the ACOG too. I got that tip from one of the Matt Burkett DVD's.

Now for my dumb question...

can you range with an ACOG, since somebody brought up that our troops overseas were thinking the bad guys were too far away?

This is the one I have:

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See how the horizontal "rungs" of the BDC ladder spread out?

Could you put that across some zombie's torso or maybe a car's hub to get a range?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Chris@MTCT » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:52 pm

Yes you can use the ACOG to range a target since the horizontal marks are the same width of an average torso at a given distance.

Just like you can do with mil dots just with out all the math. While not as accurate as mils it's close enough for government work.




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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Boondock » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:40 am

Yup, you can totally use the ACOG for range estimation. In fact, that's the only thing I really had one for during my tour in A-Stan. I'll add that I didn't like the ACOG for engaging moving targets at night within ranges of 25-50 meters.

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