ACOG Advice

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Purifire » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:01 pm

Maybe a dumb question, but what's PID?

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Assault Life » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:12 pm

Positive ID refering to a target.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by coldwater » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:19 pm

Matt E. wrote:
coldwater wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote:Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
I see it as exactly the same function. A point of aim presented to the operator to enact a strike. A $2,000 military combat sight, to me, is overkill for civilian use. I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause. Fine weapons sight. I used it for several years of and on in Hondo and continued ops across south america. later in life, I was able to obtain an Aimpoint in the late 90's, and found it preferable to the ACOG, at least in my hands. Never to this day have I seen an optic so able to take the beatings that an aimpoint can take.
Cold,
I just want you to know that I understand and even agree with what you mean. It supports what I wrote in that the sights are used side by side by guys doing the same thing. Just remember as far as the Internet goes, this place is EXTREMELY "internetty" and your posts will be lawyer'd even if some know what you mean.
Good pooh though. Experience counts.
Yeah, It's usually the same routine on most forums. New guys suck, all the time. I hope I didn't come off as a smart ass or know it all, as it wasn't my intent. I will never profess to be any kind of expert on anything other than the building trades. My experience with weapons was what I was handed and trained on, then shoved out of an aircraft with. They were just the tools of my trade at the time and I never really got into having to know everything about everything about every gun accessories, optic, mag, round, and ballistic. I trained hard at my job, and continued to stay proficient over the years, and found things that worked for me. As has been pointed out, my dated knowledge is just that, and probably has little to no practical use these days, especially here in this venue. I'll leave the topic to those that have pertinent and current knowledge, and try to learn something. I very much thank you for the heads up.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:29 pm

So, one's NVG compatible, and one's not? Which is which?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:33 pm

Akin wrote:So, one's NVG compatible, and one's not? Which is which?
H1 is non-NVD compatible, T1 is. The price difference reflects.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:29 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the H1 is "NV compatible", but you simply have to reach up and turn it down to the lowest setting.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MaconCJ7 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:40 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the H1 is "NV compatible", but you simply have to reach up and turn it down to the lowest setting.
Compatible and workable are two different things. I'd rather not myself, but with no other choice... If you plan on nvg, you should buy nvg compatible.

Edit: Reasoning, red is bright. All the time. I haven't seen a low powered red that wasn't bright.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:53 pm

MaconCJ7 wrote:Compatible and workable are two different things. I'd rather not myself, but with no other choice... If you plan on nvg, you should buy nvg compatible.

Edit: Reasoning, red is bright. All the time. I haven't seen a low powered red that wasn't bright.
I talked to a guy that said he used his H1 that way all the time. I never had an opportunity to train with one in the military, and I don't have nods as a civilian, so I can't personally confirm.

Either way, you're having to reach up and change the brightness to the NV positions on the micro or hit the NV button on an Eotech. I guess we'd need someone with an H1 and NV capability to confirm.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Dave_M » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:05 pm

Big fan of ACOGs.

Why? They aren't great at much but are mediocre at everything (as opposed to being good at X or Y but bad at Z like most other optics). Even the stuff they are supposedly mediocre at (like close distance) they are sufficient at doing (at least according to the targets and shot clock).

If given a choice I would choose a TA11-series and not the TA31-series but still like the TA31-series.....
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MaconCJ7 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:32 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:
MaconCJ7 wrote:Compatible and workable are two different things. I'd rather not myself, but with no other choice... If you plan on nvg, you should buy nvg compatible.

Edit: Reasoning, red is bright. All the time. I haven't seen a low powered red that wasn't bright.
I talked to a guy that said he used his H1 that way all the time. I never had an opportunity to train with one in the military, and I don't have nods as a civilian, so I can't personally confirm.

Either way, you're having to reach up and change the brightness to the NV positions on the micro or hit the NV button on an Eotech. I guess we'd need someone with an H1 and NV capability to confirm.
My experience isn't much different. I've used IR lasers at night, but with irons. I've used nvg compatible during the day. I have used NVGs enough to know that red is bright. Not just red lights, but red colors. They catch the eye with nvg. I suppose in absolute dark, red clothes won't be so bad, but in absolute dark, lowest setting would probably be blindingly bright anyway. Still speculation on my part, I believe Doc would have ground experience with that.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:40 am

A couple thoughts...
ANY visible light, red dot, what have you, between your NVGs and your Tgt, degrades your ability to see your target clearly.
This may not be a show stopper, but degradation is degradation.
Yes, you can use a visible red dot on lowest settings and it may have limited utility (if trying to look through it under nvgs and depending on the quality of nvg) but in many ways is defeating the purpose.
In the same way, your IR pointer and flood, if reflecting or "sparkling" on your front sight, top of flash light, what have you, also degrades your NVGs vision at depth.
This is why the NVG settings exist. It's why experienced NVG users push their laser as far forward as possible and why nvg compatible RDS are the right answer when useing NVGs.
Hope that makes sense.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by chills1994 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:35 pm

I did not read all three pages of this thread.

My first ACOG was an ECOS model with the RMR riding piggy back. The main ACOG body didn't have the fiber optic rod on the outside to light up the crosshairs or chevron on the inside. So the RMR with its red dot worked well.

If you are getting an ACOG with the external fiber optic rod, then IMO, the piggy back RMR is overly redundant. Actually in my opinion any other mini red dot hanging off the gun would be redundant too.

Yes, the cheek weld sucks. It is more of a chin hold.

I have another ACOG with the fiber optic rod, that I would like to put on a .22LR upper and since I have lots of AR500 targets already, try running some drills with that combo up close.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:11 am

Why, in your opinion, would a red dot be redundant with an ACOG that has the fiber optics? I thought that only helped to light it up better...?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Alpha-17 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:42 pm

Akin wrote:Why, in your opinion, would a red dot be redundant with an ACOG that has the fiber optics? I thought that only helped to light it up better...?
Not the person you asked the question to, but here's my two cents:
The reticule in an ACOG can be used both-eyes open as a reflex/red dot sight. It's not quite the same, but it's close enough that when you get used to it, you'll find it's really not necessary to switch to a reflex sight. Some may prefer them, but for me, it wouldn't be worth the hassle of switching to a "chin weld".

That said, the one advantage I see of a RMR ridding piggy back on an ACOG would be a more accurate zero at close range. If you zero the ACOG at 100m, you're several inches low at CQB ranges (varies by caliber and loads of course). You can always just use the correct hold off, but I can see that being something that goes out the window if you're not used to doing so, and you get "excited".
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:50 pm

With any optic up over the bore you have to compensate for precision CQB shots and know where to aim. You might be talking about CQ hostage situations though were a precision shot to the eye is needed.
UndeadInfidel wrote:Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
This ^^

I love my Trijicon ACOG, its got a Doctor red dot on top and this reticle. 4x32
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And it does exactly what I bought it for.

Right now my 16" AR is set up as a DSM [so mainly for 50yds and out, shooting] but if I want to use this setup with the ACOG to shoot close in, I use the Bindon Aiming Concept [both eyes] with the red lit portion of the reticle as a 'dot'.

With the ACOG being zeroed at 100 yds you can use the drop compensator to aim at targets at known distances below that. The 200yd drop = 50 yds, the 300 yd drop = 25 yds, the 400 yd drop = 12 yds.

My top mounted dot site is sighted for 25 yds and I know the hold over to shoot precision under 10 yds. Close in, yeah you have to practice to acquire targets quickly with a 4x fixed power but its got 32 ft area so with both eyes open and with practice you can work it pretty fast. And the transition between the two is faster than flipping a magnifier.

So my ranges on this setup are from 1 to 600 yds. The AGOG is water resistant to 10m and doesn't use batteries, a big plus. [the dot does need batteries and is only rain resistant though :( .] The tritium lit reticle works great at night.

I'd say that's versitile.

Also, if you've got time to adjust a multi power scope, or flip a magnifier before firing then you don't need the fastest optic out there.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by chills1994 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:01 pm

Here is me shooting a 3 gun stage from like 2011. This stage I actually looked through the RMR riding piggy back:



EDIT: if you pause the video at the 5 second mark, you'll see I don't have a red, amber, or green fiber optic rod on the outside of my ACOG. The distance to the paper targets in the back of the bay might have been about 30 yards. I was the match director for that match, so my rules were "2 anywhere on paper = "neutralized" ".
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by chills1994 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:06 pm

Here in this video:



I used just the unlit crosshairs in the man ACOG body. Like I said I was MD, so I made the rules, and it was " 1 A hit or 2 hits anywher = neutralized" . For this stage I decided to take my time and actually aim, have a nice sight picture and put one bullet each right in the A zone.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by chills1994 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:09 pm

One of these days, I will actually make it to a range that goes 300, 400, 500 plus yards, and lets me shoot my steel. As far as I can tell, with a 100 yard zero, the BDC in that ACOG is right on at 200, with my 55 grain reloads. :clap:
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:38 pm

Akin wrote:Why, in your opinion, would a red dot be redundant with an ACOG that has the fiber optics? I thought that only helped to light it up better...?
Akin-
The fiber optic does make the reticle brighter or dimmer with the changing lighting conditions. The downside to this is that the reticle is TOO bright. It is so bright that you will notice a shift in you optics zero if your shooting at a time of the day when there is less light then when the rifle was zeroed. The reason is because the reticle is percieved by your eye to be smaller because of the reduced amount of light. The newer model ACOGs are now coming standard from Trijicon with a smaller fiber optic in an effort to correct the issue. Most guys that have used and ACOG with the fiber optic overseas will tell you that they put a peice of tape over 80-90% of the fiber optic to help mediate this issue. I know i did and most of the guys i served with that used ACOGs did the same thing. The red dot type optic still has things you need to think about like battery life but it doesnt really have much to think about when your talking about shooting folks. The ACOG does some things better than most and is a great combat optic but it was made for a specific purpose. The red dot will enable you to do everything you need to do with the rifle up to and including 300yds very well. The odds of you having to shoot past this range is very unlikely and rare. you may hear a lot of people shooting at that range but you dont hear a lot of people making good hits past 300yds. In my opinion, putting an ACOG on a rifle for home defense or for general purposes is the equivalent to short-sheeting your own bed.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:42 pm

I don't think anyone was suggesting an ACOG was BEST for home defense, as stated, they serve best on general purpose weapons. They're a jack of all trades optic.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Chris@MTCT » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:44 pm

chills1994 wrote:One of these days, I will actually make it to a range that goes 300, 400, 500 plus yards, and lets me shoot my steel. As far as I can tell, with a 100 yard zero, the BDC in that ACOG is right on at 200, with my 55 grain reloads. :clap:
You should make it down to Big Piney sometime then.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:22 pm

chills1994 wrote:One of these days, I will actually make it to a range that goes 300, 400, 500 plus yards, and lets me shoot my steel. As far as I can tell, with a 100 yard zero, the BDC in that ACOG is right on at 200, with my 55 grain reloads. :clap:
If mine was off at 200yds I couldn't tell, but it definetly gets a little high at 300yds when aiming dead on bullseye with 55 gr FMJ factory load [3-4 inches], so to hit the bullseye I have to aim just under it when using that ammo.

I contributed it the the type of ammo not the ACOG. There's no way to compensate for every grain/load, but using a drop compensator isn't really for shooting bullseyes, its for getting rounds on target.
Bo R. wrote: Most guys that have used and ACOG with the fiber optic overseas will tell you that they put a peice of tape over 80-90% of the fiber optic to help mediate this issue. I know i did and most of the guys i served with that used ACOGs did the same thing. The red dot type optic still has things you need to think about like battery life but it doesnt really have much to think about when your talking about shooting folks. The ACOG does some things better than most and is a great combat optic but it was made for a specific purpose. The red dot will enable you to do everything you need to do with the rifle up to and including 300yds very well.
Nice tip, I'm gonna try that tape thing but never noticed being off when it got brighter. [Might just wrap it with neoprene or something though, don't really want to get tape gunk on a $1600 optic that I paid for.] If you're referring to the top mounted dot sight on the ACOG, that thing's max zero is 44 yds B4 paralax problems so I wouldn't use it out beyond that unless I had no other choice, plus the dot is so big you've got the MOA size to worry about past 50yds anyhow, IMO, YMMV.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:35 pm

RE: tape. Try using a bit of rubber and some rubber/plastic coated wire. I used electric tape with no problem.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 pm

An inner tube for a bike tire or velcro strips from like a craft store also work well. I haven't noticed a zeroing issue, but if your shooting at longer ranges in bright sun, the bloom is unbearable.

As others have said ACOG wins for versatility, but other options might be better for your needs.

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