ACOG Advice

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by coldwater » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:10 am

A of is a nice piece. No argument there. My issue is with the cost of it to sit on a non active combat weapon. For civilian use, I prefer an aim point comp ML3 at a fraction of the price. If I need more, I go to my Nikon M 223 / 3-12 glass.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:28 am

Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:00 pm

My issue is with the cost of it to sit on a non active combat weapon.
Sounds like a whole separate issue.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by coldwater » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:48 pm

UndeadInfidel wrote:Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
I see it as exactly the same function. A point of aim presented to the operator to enact a strike. A $2,000 military combat sight, to me, is overkill for civilian use. I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause. Fine weapons sight. I used it for several years of and on in Hondo and continued ops across south america. later in life, I was able to obtain an Aimpoint in the late 90's, and found it preferable to the ACOG, at least in my hands. Never to this day have I seen an optic so able to take the beatings that an aimpoint can take.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by RickOShea » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:45 pm

Until the dead rise and start eating people, I pretty much use mine for coyote huntin'.Image


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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Whiskey » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:55 pm

That would be a good use for it Rick. If I wanted something quick to use, with some magnification on it, I would want an ACOG. The price is a bitch still


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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:02 pm

coldwater wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote:Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
I see it as exactly the same function. A point of aim presented to the operator to enact a strike. A $2,000 military combat sight, to me, is overkill for civilian use. I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause. Fine weapons sight. I used it for several years of and on in Hondo and continued ops across south america. later in life, I was able to obtain an Aimpoint in the late 90's, and found it preferable to the ACOG, at least in my hands. Never to this day have I seen an optic so able to take the beatings that an aimpoint can take.
Well by that definition an ACOG, an Aimpoint, and a Nikon P223 all serve the same function the way an AR, a 1911, and a Ruger M77 all serve the same function. Let's look at a real observation of what they do.

The ACOG (speaking of the TA-31F [55gr 223] or it's variants, the TA-31A [USMC Issue, 62gr 20" barrel] and TA-31B [USMC issue 62gr 14.5" barrel]) is a battery free rugged optic that is dual illuminated, utilizing both ambient light collected by a fiber optic and an internal tritium vial. It is fog resistant, shock resistant, water resistant, and as long as you don't throw rocks at the objective lens seems to be Lance-Corporal proof. It is magnified to increase PID and hit percentages on the long end of its operational window (the aforementioned 200-600m) and to that end has a calibrated bullet drop compensator that runs out to 800m. Because of the magnification, it is slower up closer, but with training not extremely so. The other advantage is that it allows easy range estimation since the stadia lines are measured to be 19" at each of the distances. 19" is the average distance of a human shoulder to shoulder, but is close enough for a number of other things.
Pros: Easier shooting at longer distances, easy range estimation, no batteries
Cons: Slower shooting up close, heavier, spendier
Price: $900-$1150

The Aimpoint (all more or less the same, but we'll go with the M4) is water resistant, shock resistant, fog resistant, and as long as you don't throw rocks at the objective lens seems to be PFC-proof. It is battery illuminated and cannot function without that battery. The 2MOA dot does not provide any sort of drop compensation, forcing the shooter to learn the holdover for longer distance. While not impossible, no one can tell you that it's just as easy as using a BDC. Supposedly runs 6 years on one battery
Pros: Faster target acquisition up close. Lighter. Cheaper.
Cons: Not as easy to shoot at distance. Requires batteries.
Price: $750 new, less used?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Boondock » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:09 pm

coldwater wrote:I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause.
I'm more than 99% positive that you are thinking of another type of optic.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by coldwater » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:41 pm

Boondock wrote:
coldwater wrote:I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause.
I'm more than 99% positive that you are thinking of another type of optic.
Nope. I jumped with an acog. My first deployment. They have been building red dots for a long time.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:42 pm

coldwater wrote:
Boondock wrote:
coldwater wrote:I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause.
I'm more than 99% positive that you are thinking of another type of optic.
Nope. I jumped with an acog. My first deployment. They have been building red dots for a long time.
The TA-31 didn't exist in 1989. Yes, technology has changed in 24 years, and the ACOG you jumped with is not the ACOG currently issued.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:53 pm

Supposedly runs 6 years on one battery
The M68 runs almost exactly 7 months of continuous on.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:34 pm

I'd like to assume we are all tracking in the differences in an ACOG and a RDS, but you never know.
Either way, there are examples of guys with the option that prefer one or the other.
Heck, I even know a dude personally who took his ACOG off in favor of an Eotech in AFG AND got a 200m witnessed head shot.
I have both, like both, have experience with both. If I only had one, I'd be inclined to take the RDS. Of course that's easy for me to say, as I'm not selling my ACOG anytime soon...

Blacksmith, that sounds like the old m68 and NOT the comp m4.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:53 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
Supposedly runs 6 years on one battery
The M68 runs almost exactly 7 months of continuous on.
According to Wikipedia, "The CompM2 is often faulted for its short battery life when the dot visibility is set too high, which is necessary for bright environments. The On/Off/Visibility knob is also prone to turning unintentionally when the weapon is stowed or retrieved, such as when mounting and dismounting vehicles. Batteries often burn out due to unintentional engagement of the sight's power. Large rubber bands are sometimes used on the sight to keep the knob from turning accidentally. Aimpoint's successor to the M68 (the CompM3) claims a single battery will provide 50,000 hours of operation on brightness level 7 out of 10. Aimpoint's newest military sight, the Aimpoint CompM4, has a claimed ability to operate continuously for 8 years or 80,000 hours on a single AA battery."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimpoint_CompM2

Hopefully, that's accurate, as I'm seriously leaning towards the Comp M4...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by coldwater » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:59 pm

I can't really comment outside of my personal experience, but my comp has been on for about a year and a half. Still works fine.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:32 pm

Akin,
Have you looked at the Aimpoint T-1?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:34 pm

In the vein of Matt's line of questioning, and because I have no idea, what does the larger series of ACOGs bring to the table that the T/H1s don't? I'm asking as someone who doesn't need NVDs, and doesn't like magnifiers with a red dot.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:58 pm

Doc, did you mean larger ACOGs or larger AimPoints?
Last edited by Matt E. on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:04 pm

Matt E. wrote:Doc, did you mean ACOG or larger AimPoints?
Derp. I meant what do the larger Aimpoints bring to the table that the micros don't? I know plenty of people who swear by the H1, and I've been trying to figure out what it does, aside from the larger objective.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:15 pm

Got it.
The M4 uses AA batteries which many like.
It also has a longer bat life.
However, for me, Like the Eo, one of the biggest advantages of the larger FOV is due to nvg use. For the Aimpoint specifically, the T1s small size and light weight trumps this advantage.
the M4 is still a great choice, just not mine.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:25 pm

Akin wrote:
Hopefully, that's accurate, as I'm seriously leaning towards the Comp M4...
You wont be disappointed. I have used Aimpoint M2\3\4's, EOTech 552, XPS and the ACOG TA31 extensively for ten years, 4 of them overseas and if you were to ask me which optic gets a "B" across the board I would tell you either the EOTech XPS or the Aimpoint M4/T-1 models. The EOtech can be a little finicky when you really don't need it to be but overall its a great sight and for civilian use its the perfect balance of durability and dependability for the price. The Aimpoint COMP M4 and T-1 models are some of the most durable combat sights on the planet. My T-1 battery has been on constantly for a little over a year now and its still going strong. ive gotten some of the best groups at 50yds with the T-1. The aimpoints don't have the range finding capability of the eotech but the trade off is a near indestructible sight with an outstanding battery life for a couple hundred bucks more. Both sights are perfect for the general purpose AR. Hope this helps. good luck!

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:00 pm

I'd personally say get a T-1. AA batteries aren't an advantage for me, considering the battery life on the micros. After handling H-1/T-1 optics, the larger aimpoints seem a bit unwieldy and unnecessary. IMO of course.

Then again, back to ACOGs, I'd get an ACOG if I were building a rifle I planned to use for both 300+m and as well as short range. Different optics for different purposes. I also own flip-up magnifiers and while they're great, I'd rather have an ACOG if I were regularly shooting at those ranges.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MaconCJ7 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Something else of note for the AimPoint is the voltage input. 1.5-5V, giving you the option of 3.6V Lithium.

If I were to choose between ACOG or RDS, RDS wins for my uses. Price is a factor, but so is the fact that 400m shots aren't typical for me in the field. I figure a max of maybe 250m out hunting, realistically within 100m. That's this AO, and if I were someplace with wide open prairie, magnified optics would make more sense. I still wouldn't choose the ACOG. It's really a great optic, but I've busted 0 scopes in my life, and I see nothing the ACOG does better than cheaper optics, other than durability. Price is the only thing I hold against the unit. Variable power would be cool, but fixed 4x is workable for the distances it's designed for.

For RDS, I prefer the EoTech style, but AimPoint has it going on for battery life. I've seen 2 EoTech's that don't chew up batteries like they're free, but even those two went through them pretty regularly. I'd take either or for the right sale price, but if I were to go out of my way for one, it would be the AimPoint.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:11 am

UndeadInfidel wrote:
Then again, back to ACOGs, I'd get an ACOG if I were building a rifle I planned to use for both 300+m and as well as short range. Different optics for different purposes. I also own flip-up magnifiers and while they're great, I'd rather have an ACOG if I were regularly shooting at those ranges.
Pretty much except I go with "0" optics for short range under 300 m shooting. I use magnifiers on my AR's with the farther shootings rounds. There is not much call for one on a 5.56 rifle. With a 6.5 or An AR-10 that can reach out well past the useful range of the 5.56 a magnifier or a scope gives more and better options. Unless you are hunting gopher or something.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:30 pm

coldwater wrote:
UndeadInfidel wrote:Anyone equating a red dot to an ACOG doesn't have much trigger time behind an ACOG. They serve two different functions, but the ACOG is a far more versatile device.
I see it as exactly the same function. A point of aim presented to the operator to enact a strike. A $2,000 military combat sight, to me, is overkill for civilian use. I was issued my first ACOG in (As I remember) 1989, Panama, just cause. Fine weapons sight. I used it for several years of and on in Hondo and continued ops across south america. later in life, I was able to obtain an Aimpoint in the late 90's, and found it preferable to the ACOG, at least in my hands. Never to this day have I seen an optic so able to take the beatings that an aimpoint can take.
Cold,
I just want you to know that I understand and even agree with what you mean. It supports what I wrote in that the sights are used side by side by guys doing the same thing. Just remember as far as the Internet goes, this place is EXTREMELY "internetty" and your posts will be lawyer'd even if some know what you mean.
Good pooh though. Experience counts.

Bo,
Good stuff. Again, experience counts.

Akin,
Take a look at the T-1 before you pull the trigger on the M4.
I say T-1 instead of H-1 due to its superior weather proofing and not due to nvg use (although a factor for me)
"...And you would probably wind up with one of those souvenir miniature bats, because that is the kind of thing that happens when untrained people pick out unfamiliar equipment based on what "feels" right."

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