ACOG Advice

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ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:50 am

Greetings all!

So, I have a chance to get an ACOG at a fairly decent price. This model, in particular... http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/ ... =TA31F-RMR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thinking of getting it for my 16" piston AR and moving the Eotech to the 14.5 DI AR (with 2" flashhider... no SBR in CA :-(

Anyway, anyone have any strong opinions, either way, about this model? The staggering array of options for ACOGs intimidates the hell out of me.

Does it matter that its calibrated for .223 when I pretty much exclusively shoot 5.56?

Thanks!
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:56 am

The RMR piggy back is meh. I have one, and if I could sell it I would. Might end up pistol mounting the RMR, but on the ACOG it's worthless.

The ACOG is nice. That model is calibrated for 55gr (xm193, IIRC)but even between 55 and 62gr, you should be close enough on the BDC for it to not matter much until you reach the edge of the effective range of the round. Honeslty though, unless it's at stolen prices, there is better glass for the money. For the market price of an ACOG ($1200-ish) you can get a decent scope plus an offset RDS. Or you can get an FFP scope. I could go on.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:05 am

What kind of scope might be better and/or cheaper?

What's an FFP scope?

Optics are not my strong suite... when I was in the Army, we used the iron sights in the carry handles of our M16A2s, only snipers had scopes.

And, nowadays, department issued weapons come with removable carry handles, but no optics... budgetary issues, dontchaknow...

So, aside from the generic scope on my 10/22 and the Eotech, I'm really a n00b about optics... :-/
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:28 am

Akin wrote:What kind of scope might be better and/or cheaper?

What's an FFP scope?

Optics are not my strong suite... when I was in the Army, we used the iron sights in the carry handles of our M16A2s, only snipers had scopes.

And, nowadays, department issued weapons come with removable carry handles, but no optics... budgetary issues, dontchaknow...

So, aside from the generic scope on my 10/22 and the Eotech, I'm really a n00b about optics... :-/
First focal plane: as you increase magnification, the reticle retains its scale to the target. With a second plane scope (anything variable power that's not marked "First Focal Plane") the reticles do not scale.

FFP (First Focal Plane):
SO imagine a normal scope. You increase power 3x, but the dots stay the same distance apart. That menas that your mil/moa markigns for holdovers and range estimation can only be correct at one power setting (usually the highest) which means that you can't accurately dope a target unless you're on that setting, and likewise it won't be all that accurate at anything other than the magnification level you zeroed it to.

FFP-
Pros:
More flexibility
More accurate
More "field friendly" especially for unknown distance targets
Cons:
More expensive
At higher powers, the stadia (crossheirs) may obscure part of the target
Limited market

2FP-
Pros:
Most common type
Cheaper
If you have time to zero ahead of time for the area/temp/load you can shoot very accurately with a proper dope
Less likely to obscure a target at higher power
Cons:
Less accurate across its effective range
Not as cool

The real question is what are you looking at? Do you need a heavy combat optic with a 4x magnification that excels more at the 200m-600m envelope? Is this a range gun that would benefit more from $600 worth of a variable power scope? Do you use a load other than 55gr XM193? Would an Aimpoint or other non-magnified optic serve your envelope better? What about something like an AR332?

I'm not a scope expert, but I can tell you that your envelope determines what glass you need. I would say the ACOG is liek a gas piston AR, tits on a bull for 99% of the market, but you already have a piston gun. IF you come up with a service envelope the guys that frequent the optics thread will be able to steer you in the right direction.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:16 am

I sold my ACOG awhile ago and hindsight always being 20/20, i really wish I wouldnt have just because its another tool in the toolbox. The ACOG is a great optic but by design it is a special purpose optic. I would look closely at the purpose(s) you plan on using your rifle for. Some of the downsides to using an ACOG are that its difficult to shoot multiple rounds (5-8) accurately and quickly at ranges from 0-15yds. Another downside is that it is difficult to compensate for the "sight over bore" offset that need to be taken into account at these ranges due to the magnification. Doing things such as barricade work and running and gunning at ranges out to 100 yds is a lot slower using the ACOG. Things the ACOG does well: 1. precision fire at longer than normal ranges. (past 300yds) 2. Target detection and identification at longer ranges. Basically what im trying to say is that if your rifle is your primary home defense weapon, an ACOG is problably not where you want to be. if your rifle is a general purpose rifle then it needs to have a general purpose optic such as an EOTech or an Aimpoint in order to maximize your performance. If the ACOG is at a good price then go for it. Its a good investment. just know the Pros and cons.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:52 am

A buddy had that very set up. While the ACOG, to me, is a bit expensive it's a top notch optic. The RMR piggyback is clown shoes. The height over bore is horrible. It's only good for the distance it's zero'd at, everything else requires guessing on the fly for sight off set, which can be inches. At 50m, it's almost feet it's so bad.

I'm not a fan of the piggy back mount. The ACOG, to me, is best suited for an outdoor optic and I have trouble with it at close ranges. It's not impossible but not red dot fast. Just my recommendation, by it for 2 optics and split them up. One for each rifle, together, in my experience, they don't play well together.

IMO, YMMV
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by RickOShea » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:00 pm

Akin wrote:What kind of scope might be better and/or cheaper?
I like this one (but there are some other low power FFP scopes that I'm sure others will chime-in about):

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-MRAD-Scopes-C4225.aspx

http://www.americandefensemanufacturing ... product/5/

A "heavy duty" scope and a decent mount will end-up weighing a bit more than that ACOG....If weight is a concern.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:09 pm

Better and cheaper depends upon what you want to do with it. Without knowing what you want to use the scope for, at what distances, on what weapons (you gave us that), it is like throwing darts at a wall.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:03 pm

I want it for shooting zombies in the head as they close on my position, of course! :-D

Also to poke holes in targets and bang on steel plates out to several hundred yards, maybe to three...

So, basically, ideally, something that could be used up close and out to a distance. My current Eotech has one of those flip-aside 3x magnifiers, so I can do both near and far, but like I said I'm putting that on my 14.5" Zombie Squad carbine...

What do folks think about those 45... errr, how do you insert the "degree" symbol?... offset red dots? I never saw one before that bad movie Jack Reacher last year, but I hear them mentioned now. Haven't seen any in pictures from overseas, so I don't know if it's ever done by the real guys, either...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Bo R. » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:04 pm

45 degree offsets have been in use for awhile now by 3 gun competitiors and I have known a few guys to use 45 degree offset doctor red dots on there long guns. no idea on how durable it is overseas but the concept is sound. ive shot an offset T-1 mounted on a friends Larue predator and it was pretty pleasant once you get used to it.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:34 pm

Offset 45* RDS alongside a variable power scope the the current proverbial shit for 3-gun. Honestly if 300yd is the edge of your performance envelope then the ACOG is a lot of extra money. The Burris AR332 is a budget fixed power optic with a BDC that's getting pretty good reviews, and is much smaller/lighter than the ACOG. It does lack the radioactive power source, but it's also 1/5th the price.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Never saw one in theater.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:44 pm

The 45 degree off set IS in use in both the iron and RDS, along with some piggy backs, over seas by some.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:45 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Never saw one in theater.
A couple units were getting them for DMRs, and I know MARSOC has them on some rifles.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:06 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Never saw one in theater.
A couple units were getting them for DMRs, and I know MARSOC has them on some rifles.
Probably. All our Marines had ACOGs while we were still using the M68. I think the Army is mostly still using the M68. Last tour did not see any Marines so they could all have them by now.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:21 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Never saw one in theater.
A couple units were getting them for DMRs, and I know MARSOC has them on some rifles.
Probably. All our Marines had ACOGs while we were still using the M68. I think the Army is mostly still using the M68. Last tour did not see any Marines so they could all have them by now.
I thought you meant the offsets. ACOGs are standard for Marines.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by UndeadInfidel » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:19 am

I've loved every ACOG I've used (TA31F's too). Kinda wish I still had one.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:57 am

So, the M68, that's an Aimpoint Comp M2, yes? I was actually thinking about one of those, too... although it's been replaced by the Comp M4?

*sigh* decisions, decisions... so, perhaps an ACOG might be overkill for my needs. What is a good use for them, then? Damn near every grunt I see overseas has one on his weapon... surely these guys aren't using them to make six hundred yards shots with any regularity...
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Whiskey » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:19 am

I was issued a Comp M4. Still referred to as a M68. Some of the people in my unit had an older model that ran off of the little button batteries


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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Akin » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:37 am

Hmm.

What is the issued mount for the M68/M4? I know, I know, GI Issue isn't always best, but it's a good starting point, if nothing else...

It also looks like there is an M4 with the battery tube mounted high, and one with the tube mounted low. Which did Uncle Sam give you?
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Whiskey » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:57 am

My battery tube is mounted high... And the mount for the optic came in the box... Sorry I can't be more helpful than that. The box included a z mount or gooseneck for the M16 rifles, that put the optic forward of the carry handle, and a riser piece for mounting on the M4 carbine.


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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by MadMonkey » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:59 am

I have a TA31F on my 20" AR with a Burris Fastfire III on a 45 degree offset. 45 degree mounts are relatively inexpensive and it would be a simple matter to transfer the RMR to one if you did buy that combo.

I love the ACOG. Great optic.

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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Matt E. » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:33 am

Akin,
The M4 (m68) was originally issued with the high battery box, and is now issued with the low one. They are issued with the Aimpoint mount.
In my neck of the woods, most M4-A1s have ACOGs but I'll admit I don't know which model. M68s are available for draw. The ACOG has the current nod due to longer engagement distances and PID in AFG.

I think you are on the right track. The weapons and accessories issued to GIs aren't always the best, but they are unequivocally "among the best." Unlike equipment that some may prefer, it has actually been tested to suite the needs of the .mil.
I like the ACOG. Mine is calibrated for the 14.5 inch barrel which is what most of my guns have. However, it's on an upper in the back of the safe next to my long range gun.
For general purpose, you can't go wrong with a good RDS. Although maybe not as good for PID or ranges past 300m, it still works within the parameters in which it was designed,(the most common realistic engagement distances) and most will find it quicker and easier at closer ranges. It's also less money.
There is nothing wrong with the ACOG. If you want it, get it and no one can fault you, but I'm guessing a good RDS may be a better fit.
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Re: ACOG Advice

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:43 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Never saw one in theater.
A couple units were getting them for DMRs, and I know MARSOC has them on some rifles.
Probably. All our Marines had ACOGs while we were still using the M68. I think the Army is mostly still using the M68. Last tour did not see any Marines so they could all have them by now.
I thought you meant the offsets. ACOGs are standard for Marines.

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I did mean the offsets, the thread is about ACOG offsets. Now that I think about it I did some Navy guys with ACOGS but they did not have offsets either.
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