Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

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Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Wed May 01, 2013 1:17 am

Many of you guys won't know me, as I mostly "live" in "Other weapons". I am Jörg, a German, and I make rubber based weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am planning to spend some time in the US in late summer/fall, for the sole reason to legally make emergency firearms on YouTube. This would be a no-no without licenses I can't get here in Germany, but in the US it seems OK.

Of course I don't want to make just one more boring zip gun. Plenty of such vids around. I am talking about making very unusual guns from stuff you can find even after civilization has been going down the drain. Wood. Rubber. Generic steel bars, maybe. Hand tools.

I am looking at homemade designs that are mostly made from plywood, with rubber instead of springs. A few ideas:

- a four shot .22 rifle that can fire each round individually, but also all at once (same principle as my two shot arrow crossbow).

- A triple mode slingshot crossbow that can shoot an arrow, a steel ball, and a .22 - all at once or individually

- A flechette shooter that fires .22 blank equipped exploding tips

- A .22 that is entirely made out of plywood. Of course it would not last many shots, but it should be good enough for five shots. That is the goal. The barrel would be studded with screws to keep the layers together, and wrapped with raw hide, applied wet and dried rock hard - like a native American tomahawk. The idea is that this weapon can be made from wood and rubber, no steel except the screws, and with just a battery drill as a tool. I don't know if it would work - but I think it will get many views even if it is a fail.

What do you guys think about such a special series on my channel?
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Skull_Hide » Wed May 01, 2013 1:36 am

I think it is a brilliant idea and as long as it follows completely in the legal guide lines I say do it. It will give your channel a interesting twist for regular viewers and open more potential for others to find your channel as well. Not to invade your privacy but can you let us know where you'll be, for a potential ZS meet and greet the great Joergs, sling shot extravagant for us U.S. viewers. Although I doubt you'll visit the West Coast...
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by KentsOkay » Wed May 01, 2013 1:47 am

Sound like zip guns to me :clap:
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Wed May 01, 2013 1:59 am

I will go to South Carolina again, to Greenville. My friend Nathan has agreed to help me on the project. I need that help for legal and practical reasons.
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by lowjohn19 » Wed May 01, 2013 4:12 am

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'd watch.

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed May 01, 2013 7:26 am

JoergS wrote: I am looking at homemade designs that are mostly made from plywood, with rubber instead of springs. A few ideas:

- a four shot .22 rifle that can fire each round individually, but also all at once (same principle as my two shot arrow crossbow).

You can lawfully make firearms for personal use and not for sale. You can make a four barrel rifle to fire once per trigger pull however, if it fires all four bullets with one trigger pull then it's a machinegun. That's a serious NFA violation, felony and jail. If you wanted a four barrel 22 you'd have to have a trigger for each barrel.
- A triple mode slingshot crossbow that can shoot an arrow, a steel ball, and a .22 - all at once or individually
No legal issue here. Rock on.
- A flechette shooter that fires .22 blank equipped exploding tips
This is a big no go. Explosive bullets makes it a destructive device. Making one is a NFA violation. You could make it a flechette firing 22 with a smooth bore but explosive tip, not possible under current law.
- A .22 that is entirely made out of plywood. Of course it would not last many shots, but it should be good enough for five shots.
This is lawful to construct.
What do you guys think about such a special series on my channel?
You'd have to have some help with this to be in compliance with the law. You can make firearms for personal use but can not selling them. This makes you a manufacturer. Very serious violation without proper licenses. You could help others 'make' their own guns then test those guns. If you want, I can get you in contact some small manufacturers that maybe willing to help you on this project. With the assistance of the manufacturer that has a special license you could make any or all of these.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man on Wed May 01, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Wed May 01, 2013 7:58 am

Where does it say only ONE homemade gun per person? I read up on the FTA website and found no mentioning.

Of course I realize that I have to team up with Nathan anyway. He is a US citizen and I don't know if I have the same rights as an alien. Nathan has a family, so I guess there's plenty of candidates that I can help making a gun.

I can (and will) destroy a homemade gun after the video is done. Would that change anything?

I'd LOVE to cooperate with someone who has all the proper licenses, and would very much appreciate getting in touch with proper companies!
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed May 01, 2013 8:10 am

JoergS wrote:Where does it say only ONE homemade gun per person? I read up on the FTA website and found no mentioning.

You can make as many as you want, just not for selling.

Of course I realize that I have to team up with Nathan anyway. He is a US citizen and I don't know if I have the same rights as an alien.

My wife is a resident alien and she can buy guns, you can shoot guns while you're here. As long as a citizen is with you, I don't believe you'd have a problem with this project. I don't think you'd have a problem even without him as long as you have a valid passport. Aliens have all the rights of citizens you just can't vote or hold public office. I don't believe you can buy a gun with a passport however.

Nathan has a family, so I guess there's plenty of candidates that I can help making a gun.

This is the best route, assisting manufacturing is a much better plan. They just have to finish the build in some fashion such as turning a screw or installing a firing mechanism.

I can (and will) destroy a homemade gun after the video is done. Would that change anything?

No, it changes nothing.

I'd LOVE to cooperate with someone who has all the proper licenses, and would very much appreciate getting in touch with proper companies!
I'll PM you the guys that are small and maybe willing to help. If they can't, they'd know someone who would.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man on Wed May 01, 2013 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Skull_Hide » Wed May 01, 2013 10:16 am

I thought it was one a year of that "model" meaning if you were to make five completely different firearms in a year it would still fall under legal.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by maldon007 » Wed May 01, 2013 12:12 pm

Man this sounds sketchy from an ATF/whatever other ABC type organizations point of view... A non citizen comes here, just to "make guns" :?:

I totally get it, most people here do as well... But from someone who doesn't get this stuff, it might look real bad. But of course, I have NO experience with making firearms at ALL... Just thinking about the present state of worry going on after bombings/shootings/etc.

Oh yeah, and I certainly hope you can do this & that we can see it!

As others have said, it sure seems like finding a "Red Jacket" type gun builder to do the builds while you "help" and would be working under their license (or however you would say it), would be the way to go.

Good luck!!!
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Dave_M » Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 pm

RG, can you please show me the, 'one gun per year' law. Invariably someone says it and cannot cite a source.

The BATFE does not mention said regulation here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearm ... ology.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
BATFE wrote:Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?
For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.
The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term “firearm” to include the following:
… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
In addition, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as:
… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), specifically states the following:
It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under the…[GCA]…Section 925(d)(3).as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ….
Also, 27 C.F.R. § 478.39 states:

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ….
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of [§478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below] are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to be “nonsporting.”
Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine; folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.
Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.
Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is thus a violation of § 922(r).
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.
Here's the entire text of GCA 86'
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/laws/gca68.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also NFA 34'
http://homicide.northwestern.edu/docs_f ... f_1934.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Dave_M on Wed May 01, 2013 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 01, 2013 12:39 pm

Might want to read this first:
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien falls within one of the following exceptions: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued by the Federal Government, a State, or local government, or an Indian tribe federally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is valid and unexpired; (2) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes; (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States; (4) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; (5) is en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited; (6) is an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or (7) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant
visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as
required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at:
http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/faq/n ... aliens.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Production is not addressed. Would hate to be a test case. Any way you look at it get a hunting lic and come during hunting season.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed May 01, 2013 12:47 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Might want to read this first:
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien falls within one of the following exceptions: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued by the Federal Government, a State, or local government, or an Indian tribe federally recognized by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is valid and unexpired; (2) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes; (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States; (4) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; (5) is en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited; (6) is an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or (7) is a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant
visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as
required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at:
http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/faq/n ... aliens.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Production is not addressed. Would hate to be a test case. Any way you look at it get a hunting lic and come during hunting season.
The easy work around is to have JoergS learn from a licensed manufacturer. Sort of like an apprenticeship. I'm not a manufacturer, but I can go work in an SOT shop and turn out whatever with absolutely no problems.*

*Except my limited skillset.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed May 01, 2013 12:59 pm

Dave_M wrote:RG, can you please show me the, 'one gun per year' law. Invariably someone says it and cannot cite a source.
Okay, I looked, now watch this, I was wrong. I admitted to being wrong on the internet. Do I get a prize?
You can make all the guns you want as long as you do not sell them.
And I'll break internet precedence again, I apologize for this error.

From: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/indus ... 10-qas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9. May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for
resale?
Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA
provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semiautomatic
rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In
addition, the making of an NFA firearm requir
es a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An
application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing
that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18
U.S.C.

§ 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105).
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed May 01, 2013 1:14 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Might want to read this first:

:words:

http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/faq/n ... aliens.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Production is not addressed. Would hate to be a test case. Any way you look at it get a hunting lic and come during hunting season.
I gave Joerg contact info for 2 manufacturers in SC that maybe willing to help. There are more but these guys are local. I also offered Joerg on the ground help in this matter since it is within the confines of SC. We'll not let him down. This will happen. :D
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed May 01, 2013 1:15 pm

Regular Guy wrote:
Dave_M wrote:RG, can you please show me the, 'one gun per year' law. Invariably someone says it and cannot cite a source.
Okay, I looked, now watch this, I was wrong. I admitted to being wrong on the internet. Do I get a prize?
You can make all the guns you want as long as you do not sell them.
And I'll break internet precedence again, I apologize for this error.

From: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/indus ... 10-qas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9. May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for
resale?
Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA
provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semiautomatic
rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In
addition, the making of an NFA firearm requir
es a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An
application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing
that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18
U.S.C.

§ 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105).
They can even be sold later, if the individual so chooses, provided the manufacturer name/city/state and serial are present.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Wed May 01, 2013 1:43 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Might want to read this first:
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited...
German's don't need a visa for the US.
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My blog: http://www.slingshotchannel.blogspot.de/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My forum: http://www.theslingshotforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Wed May 01, 2013 1:47 pm

Regular Guy wrote:I admitted to being wrong on the internet.
Yeah right. What's next, you'll claim there are women on here, too? :rofl:


Seriously, though, kudos.

Just a thought, as I honestly have no idea how it would apply to someone in Joerg's situation, but do you think it could make a difference if he were to make a black powder gun instead of shooting .22? I know, I know, not what he asked about, but just think...

Black powder blunderbuss crossbow goat launcher. :mrgreen:
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 01, 2013 2:10 pm

JoergS wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Might want to read this first:
An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is not prohibited...
German's don't need a visa for the US.
If you go to the citation it will tell you that the same applies for those under Visa Waiver Program.
Regular Guy wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Might want to read this first:

:words:

http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/faq/n ... aliens.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Production is not addressed. Would hate to be a test case. Any way you look at it get a hunting lic and come during hunting season.
I gave Joerg contact info for 2 manufacturers in SC that maybe willing to help. There are more but these guys are local. I also offered Joerg on the ground help in this matter since it is within the confines of SC. We'll not let him down. This will happen. :D
Seriously good idea.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by NamelessStain » Thu May 02, 2013 6:59 am

JoergS,

Do you have a date for your trip to SC? I'm sure ZSC:045 will be willing to help as much as possible to make sure you don't do anything which might get you in trouble with law enforcement. Drop in the ZSC:045 forum ( http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) if you need anything or have questions.

The plywood build intrigues me the most!
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by polliedes » Thu May 02, 2013 8:09 am

yeah let us know when you are in town. i am a couple hours north.
would be great to meet you in real life, maybe lend a hand if needed.
we also have a class 2 manufacturer up here that might be willing to help
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by Redeyes » Thu May 02, 2013 1:53 pm

Yes, ZS 045 has Joergs back. I would be willing to come down and turn screws or fetch and carry or whatever. I will be available from Mon-Wed anytime. If you need help on Thurs-Sunday let me know about a month in advance and I can swing that too.

Hey RG http://www.southcarolinaparks.com/paris ... mping.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this state park is in Greenville and has camping sites that can be reserved just in case this turns into an official chapter event. :D
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by JoergS » Fri May 03, 2013 4:52 am

That's great! I think a nice ZS BBQ is a MUST. I will hook up with you guys as soon as I have a schedule.
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Re: Slingshot Channel Firearms Excursion

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Fri May 03, 2013 8:28 am

You /need/ to hook up with a licensed firearms manufacturer.

The BATFE has a restriction on manufacturing "improvised firearms" more commonly referred to as zip guns. I will say that I am unaware of anyone being prosecuted for making homemade 'improvised firearms' but that falls under the purview of the NFA, as an "Any Other Weapon" classification, which requires a lot of time, a tax, and approval, before beginning manufacture.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/iden ... earms.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you hit that page and search "any other weapon" some of them are not applicable, but you'll see there's a quick trend of firearms classified as "Any Other Weapon" that are made from improvised materials and do not appear to be very gun-like in appearance.

For your own legal safety, I would recommend hooking up with a shop that has an FFL that is licensed to manufacture NFA items, which should not be terribly difficult. Shops like that enjoy experimentation, and you'd be under a safe 'umbrella' of protection as they could report the manufacture of any item that may be an AOW when it's made, or at least get someone to rule on it. If you're lucky, you'll run into someone experienced with the AOW realm and where the line is between a GCA firearm (that anyone can manufacture themselves) and an NFA firearm (which requires the hoops and tax and approval I mentioned earlier)

Good luck to you, Jorg, I look forward to seeing your results! I've loved everything I've seen from you so far and I'd love to see what you can accomplish soon.

I'm not very close to South Carolina, unfortunately, but if you wanted, I do know of a shop with manufacturers license that would be more than happy to have you.

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