I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Kutter_0311 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Doc Torr wrote:Before buying a shotgun for home defense, read the MilCopp article about it.

Linky and the ten+ pages of discussion. I personally like handguns for HD, though an M4gery isn't a bad choice either, with training.
Shotguns aren't the great American all-around gun, IMO. I like shotguns better for small game than .22LR, and they're great for fowl, decent for deer with slugs, but offer far too much colateral damage to be used defensively if your house contains kids. Pistols and carbines at least fire a single, fairly predictable projectile, and cleanup is easy. Shotguns destroy a lot of shit, and you'll be finding it over time. Your kids will find it first...

Save the shotty for hunting.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:18 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote: Save the shotty for hunting.
Thanks for the emphasis. I'm finding less use for a shotgun, myself, although a cute little O/U or single-shot 20ga or 16ga may eventually find its way to my safe, merely for the occasioanl dove hunt with my old man.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Kutter_0311 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:42 pm

Doc Torr wrote:a cute little O/U or single-shot 20ga or 16ga may eventually find its way to my safe, merely for the occasioanl dove hunt with my old man.
This is the nice thing about having what you need well covered. Enjoy it, bro!
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by JesterODX » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:27 am

I'm not a gun expert and not a hunter. This is my thoughts on it, so take it for what it is, just my thoughts.
bearfish wrote: 1)What is the main consideration for firearm choice? Tactical, hunting, home defense??? A lot of folks here speak from military experience, I get that, but isn't it better to avoid an armed confrontation? wouldn't I be better served with something for hunting? Again I am merely trying to get my bearings.

This is what you have to decide. What is your main consideration for wanting a fire arm. Each firearm I buy I have a specific reason for getting it. My 10/22 is so I will have a good small game gun for hunting.

2)How does effective range factor into your consideration? If I am hunting in the woods were I live or defending my home then do I really want to fire a round that has an extended range? Velocity and mass and type of round play a role I am sure.

Depends what I want the fire arm for? If I want a deer rifle, I want one with decent range. Sure maybe I can take down a deer with a .22 but I'm not planning on trying. I want to make sure it dies and doestn suffer and I want to make sure I dont have to chase it too far. Nothign wrong with a round that has range. You just have to be mindful of your target and whats behind it. People hunt all the time with 7mil magnums and 300 win mags and manage to not kill anyone all the time. Again, this is a choice you have to figure for you.

3)I have seen that most people here seem to favor large caliber/gauges. With that being said wouldn't my first question determine caliber? And how does weight/expense of rounds factor in?

Sorta. What you want to do with the gun should decide its calibur but also your ability to use that calibur effectivly. And mag capacity. For example I have a 9 mil pistol for self defense. A .45 makes bigger holes and has more stopping power. But I am not as accurate with a .45 as I am with a 9 mil in a semi auto. I prefer revolvers, but 17 rounds in the mag is better in my opinion with a less powerful round. So for my all around self defense pistol, these are my thoughts into it.
Now you talk about the 410 and 22. Two of my favorite guns. The 410 was the first gun I every shot. They are excellent small game guns. I killed a squirrel with my first shot ever fired. So its easy enough to hunt with for an unskilled hunter at the age of 14. Again, I wouldnt use one against a deer. I dont see that as a 410's intended game. I break out the old Stevens 410 on occasion and fire a round or two.

My ideal shot gun for all situations is a 12 guage. I like it for home defense and it will kill just about any game you need it to kill, at least for us here in North America. If I had a choice of only one shot gun, its the 12 guage hands down.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by MaconCJ7 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:41 am

Going off of the assumption that you don't plan on adding to your armory in the near future, I can't suggest the 12g. It doesn't fill any role very well (aside from fowl hunting), but it does cover what you need. They are bulky, heavy, and loud. It has apparently been a long while since you've shot one, but I've found 2-3/4" loads to have acceptable recoil. Stay away from 3-1/2" loads. I shoot a lot and I don't enjoy shooting them.

Nothing wrong with a .22 either. Great little guns, and the caliber that the vast majority of folks learned on. I'm not partial to the .410, but they are fun to shoot. They force you to get better at fowl hunting, and that's the truth.

If I were to have to choose one gun as my only option, I would go with an AR-15 or AK variant. Not for the tacticool factor either. Carbines are better all around weapons. Great for HD/SD, great for hunting (with appropriate caliber and mag capacity for local laws), and just good firearms. They are not for concealed carry by any means, but that doesn't seem to be your purpose.

For HD/SD they have normal capacity magazines where legal. For hunting, they have lower capacity to be within regs. Hollow point, soft tip, ballistic tip, FMJ, a plethora of ammunition available to suit your needs. Lights, optics, lasers, blow dryers, and chainsaws are available to fill the requirement.

You'll find AK's to be cheaper than AR's, but if you can scrounge the money for an AR, I would go that route as caliber choices are better. Then you need to decide what caliber you want. *Not trying to start a battle here. I own both, and prefer the AR platform for it's modularity.


If you have plans of expanding your selection, a semi-auto pistol, carbine, and shotgun would be my suggestions. Pistol for daily carry, carbine for reasons stated above, shotgun for fowl.

IAW your lack of experience, I would get a 9mm pistol due to cheaper ammo. It's not what I prefer, but the ammunition available in today's market has made it an equal to its previous superiors. Ball ammunition for training, and self-defense loads for carry.

5.56 would be my carbine choice (cheap and widely available ammunition), if it's legal to hunt with in TN. If not, 6.8SPC. 6.8SPC is a costlier round, but it will drop game with ease.

12g shotgun, pump action.

I'll be the PSA pimp here and suggest them if you are going to look for an AR variant. Building one is easy, and you can save mucho dinero.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by DarkAxel » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:24 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote: Shotguns aren't the great American all-around gun, IMO. I like shotguns better for small game than .22LR, and they're great for fowl, decent for deer with slugs, but offer far too much colateral damage to be used defensively if your house contains kids. Pistols and carbines at least fire a single, fairly predictable projectile, and cleanup is easy. Shotguns destroy a lot of shit, and you'll be finding it over time. Your kids will find it first...

Save the shotty for hunting.
I would like to hear your reasoning on this.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by bearfish » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:21 pm

Wow everyone

Thank you again for your input. I have to admit that I was a bit apprehensive to post a question in the first place because there are so many stong viewpoints. Some of the posts seem like pretty heated debates. Some other forums I have been on definately slam people who don't know.

I have been looking into different things. I mentioned to my friend who suggested a 9mm the advice everyone has offered. He said he would be happy to go with me to look at handguns and make sure I find one that fits my hand.

As for the shotgun, I am honestly still undecided. I am looking at a 12gauge pump as everyone has suggested. I have kids (2 now and one more on the way in july) and the idea of shot spreading and possibly passing through the drywall and striking them is pretty unnerving.

I know that proper training will reduce the risk. Hunting is different from potentially using a firearm indoors, at night, with my family present.

All of the lists AND the reasoning behind them have been invaluable to me.

THANK YOU AGAIN.

I am glad that I did not let childhood memories be the only factor in making a choice.

I'll mention my grandfather one more time, he told me once "Never ask for advice if you are not willing to take it, even if you are wrong".

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Kutter_0311 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:20 am

DarkAxel wrote:
Kutter_0311 wrote: Shotguns aren't the great American all-around gun, IMO. I like shotguns better for small game than .22LR, and they're great for fowl, decent for deer with slugs, but offer far too much colateral damage to be used defensively if your house contains kids. Pistols and carbines at least fire a single, fairly predictable projectile, and cleanup is easy. Shotguns destroy a lot of shit, and you'll be finding it over time. Your kids will find it first...

Save the shotty for hunting.
I would like to hear your reasoning on this.
Aside frome the (possibly toxic) mess I stated, my kids are often wandering where they shouldn't be, like over to see this new person in our house. They don't really discriminate between 'friendly visitor' and 'threatening home invader' as quickly as I do, or without going and saying 'hi!' first. So, is there a likelyhood that my kids will be near someone I'm thinking about shooting? Oh, I'd bet on it. Do I want shot flying in their area? Not really, I suck with the shotty. With a rifle, I know where that bullet is going.

Am I being clear with my reasoning? Sometimes I jump steps in my thought process when I write...
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:04 am

For HD, my tree goes "Handgun=Defensive Carbine>Semi-Auto Shotgun>Pump Shotgun."

Reasoning: Pumps are the slowest and usually the hardest to control and the most difficult to maneuver in a house. Pistol grip pumps are easier to jam, there by negating whatever "pro" it had be being compact. Carbines are more likely to punch holes through more things, but not too much moreso than pistols. You're accountable for every bullet or pellet you fire, so it's up to you whether you keep a carbine or pistol nearby, but the pros and cons (IMHO) balance out.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by DarkAxel » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:05 am

Kutter_0311 wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
Kutter_0311 wrote: Shotguns aren't the great American all-around gun, IMO. I like shotguns better for small game than .22LR, and they're great for fowl, decent for deer with slugs, but offer far too much colateral damage to be used defensively if your house contains kids. Pistols and carbines at least fire a single, fairly predictable projectile, and cleanup is easy. Shotguns destroy a lot of shit, and you'll be finding it over time. Your kids will find it first...

Save the shotty for hunting.
I would like to hear your reasoning on this.
Aside frome the (possibly toxic) mess I stated, my kids are often wandering where they shouldn't be, like over to see this new person in our house. They don't really discriminate between 'friendly visitor' and 'threatening home invader' as quickly as I do, or without going and saying 'hi!' first. So, is there a likelyhood that my kids will be near someone I'm thinking about shooting? Oh, I'd bet on it. Do I want shot flying in their area? Not really, I suck with the shotty. With a rifle, I know where that bullet is going.

Am I being clear with my reasoning? Sometimes I jump steps in my thought process when I write...
That sounds reasonable for your situation.

Some people won't recommend a shotgun for home defense based on some of the myths surrounding them. The truth is that if you can do your part, a shotgun is as safe as a rifle at home defense ranges. As effective? maybe not.

I recommended a shotgun to the OP because he's looking to arm up and he doesn't have a lot of money to build up a defensive battery, and a shotgun is cheap and versatile enough to rely on until he can afford more effective weapons. There are no pistols or rifles available for less than 200 bucks that I'd trust my life with, but you can buy good, used 12 gauge pumps all day at that price. In the OP's place I'd get a shotty first, then start saving up for a pistol or carbine to take over the SD/HD role.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Kutter_0311 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:04 pm

I agree, the shotty is the gun that is the most flexible, especially given the price.

I can do the most jobs, at least a little...

Everyone has their own situational balance, and I'll admit to the fact that mine is far more skewwed toward HD/SD. I honestly haven't hunted in 5-6 years.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by ultra magnus » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:37 pm

If you are looking for a full set up with minimal cost I'd look at something like this.

Used Marlin Model 60 22 Should be able to get one under $100

Used pump 12ga of choice. I have seen 870s and 500s for $120 I also see used Savage 720s for the $150 which is a pretty awesome Auto 5 clone.

Used S&W Model 64 $300

Saiga $350ish

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by eugene » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:24 pm

I have a Marlin 60, won't run more than two tubes through without needing to be taken apart and cleaned.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by ace of shades » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:07 pm

eugene wrote:I have a Marlin 60, won't run more than two tubes through without needing to be taken apart and cleaned.
That sounds a like my Henery. It is a fun rifle to shoot, but that thing is as picky as people say my Walther should be. If it gets dirty it's like a good old jam-o-matic and that's usually after about 30 or so rounds, or if its windy and kicking up dust.

On the note of 410 VS 12 I went out yesterday an talked a friend into some skeet shooting so I bought 3 extra boxes of 12g and snagged a box of 410 because I was running low for the snake charmer. 1 box of 25 410 shells sucked down $14, I bought 3 boxes (75 rounds) of 12g for $15. I did try my first time at shooting pidgins with the 410 and I found I could get them to wobble and break into big pieces but I never could get them to dust. It is a fairly short barrel and a mod choke but it really showed me a lot about the range I could get out of it *not that much* hell of a 40 yard rabbit gun though
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by ElevenBravo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:11 pm

Oddly, I have a .22LR *and* a 20ga in my armory. I just added a .22 air rifle, brake barrel... has the power of a 22 short! No ammo needed, 500 hollow point pellets fit in your pocket, pretty quiet discharge, small game will NOT be safe! Of course the 12ga and .223 are there, but each weapon has it's own unique application. Zombies get the .223 or 12ga for close quarters, varmit for the dinner table will likely get the .22, with the air rifle being first choice.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by eugene » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:12 pm

ace of shades wrote:
eugene wrote:I have a Marlin 60, won't run more than two tubes through without needing to be taken apart and cleaned.
That sounds a like my Henery. It is a fun rifle to shoot, but that thing is as picky as people say my Walther should be. If it gets dirty it's like a good old jam-o-matic and that's usually after about 30 or so rounds, or if its windy and kicking up dust.

On the note of 410 VS 12 I went out yesterday an talked a friend into some skeet shooting so I bought 3 extra boxes of 12g and snagged a box of 410 because I was running low for the snake charmer. 1 box of 25 410 shells sucked down $14, I bought 3 boxes (75 rounds) of 12g for $15. I did try my first time at shooting pidgins with the 410 and I found I could get them to wobble and break into big pieces but I never could get them to dust. It is a fairly short barrel and a mod choke but it really showed me a lot about the range I could get out of it *not that much* hell of a 40 yard rabbit gun though
I just bought a Henry, went ~250 rounds before a jam then I clean it and shot some more. We were shooting a little on an off over a couple days so I cleaned it once or twice more in the next 250 rounds just when we took breaks but didn't have any other jamming problems.
I have a 20 gauge, got some of those 4 box boxes (100 rounds) when Dicks had them on sale buy one get one 1.2 off a few years ago.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by wguy00 » Fri May 04, 2012 4:40 pm

I'm going to go against the grain here and say the OP doesn't need a gun of any flavor, yet.

The OP states he has a family, doesn't have very much money, and doesn't have a BOB in place. What about the rest of your preps? Anything? I'd take what little money I'd be spending on a gun and make sure that food and water are in place first. Not to mention that buying a gun is just the down payment. It needs to be fed and taken care of, just like every other member of the family. Will you be getting any training? That can be expensive too. Don't get a gun, not yet. After you've got a few weeks of food and water stored for your family, then look at getting a firearm.

Edit: Just realized this thread is two weeks old.
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by momengineer » Fri May 04, 2012 5:16 pm

Pardon me for jumping into the guys arena, but I just wanted to say thanks for this thread! (had some of the same questions about individual guns)

And can I just throw this out there (for any other newbie in zombieland)...guns are just one part of the equation.

I think that its a knee jerk reaction for most males to jump to that part of the preparation equation- but its just one part. So here is my advice: ANY gun is better than NO gun. (especially only 30 min from nashville. Heck, I am 1 & 1/2 hrs from there, and concerned about it!) Ultimately, a gun is a equalizer...no matter what- any gun is better than none. Get the gun you can afford now, and then make sure you are also prepping in the other areas.

For instance- have you thought about water? (Air, water, food, shelter, security?) Even a $5-$10 tarp and a bucket is a first step on that one- violia, cheap rainwater collection. Save an old coffee or soup can, and you can boil river water (lots of rivers/streams in nashvegas area). Not a Big Berkley filter, but it will get the job done.

Right now is seed planting time- can you (or wifey) plant something/anything to start learning gardening/seed saving? Use an old container like a coffee can (ask around at work if you don't drink it) and a bit of topsoil, packet of seeds- under $5...

Take a honest look at where you live- how many exposed windows do you have (would you be better off with a crappy (?) gun and plywood over the windows versus the worlds best gun and unfettered access to your house?). How could you block off your neighborhood (aka LA riots) to protect yourself?

You get the idea...don't stress over making the "perfect" choice...often the "right" choice is to do something, and then you can improve and replace preps as you go along.

(Hope I didn't sound too preachy :) ...just that when I started this journey it was all so overwhelming and I want to help others)

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri May 04, 2012 6:02 pm

No gun is better than a shitty gun with poor training, improper training, or no training. A shitty gun with poor training means you now likely think that you have an equalizer, when what you really have is an accident waiting to happen. When that gun jams, or doesn't hit it's target, or you end up behind bars because you shot a fleeing home invader, that snap-purchase gun has now caused at least $10,000 worth of damage, if it didn't cost you your life.

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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by Scout308 » Fri May 04, 2012 6:31 pm

My nickels worth: (Differing opinions are just that - different - and just as valid)

Home defense - start with a 9mm (Says the guy with .45 1911s, .45 XD, and 9x23 1911) + TRAINING If you can't afford the training - find someone to work on the basics (Safety, Sight Picture, Trigger, Grip, Stance)
Even before the BOB etc. Depending on location - if your in tornado ally - do the BOB first.
Why: your chances of needing it are about on par or higher with needing to Bug Out and you can bug out with grocery sacks if you have to.

First rifle .22lr (personal preference is a Ruger 10/22 but a good lever action or bolt action is fine)
Why: easiest to learn on, cheapest to learn on. Excellent for fun, small game, not great for defense but better than Twinkie - I sure don't want to get shot by one.

Next a big bore rifle
Why: Bad guys at a distance are better than bad guys up close; A Deer will feed you longer than a rabbit; A .22lr is not a good choice for a pissed off bear.

This is harder because there are a lot of good options and some tradeoffs you need to consider. The rounds I'd consider are 5.56 NATO, .308Win .300 Blackout and 7.62x39(AK-47)
Of the four - the .308 is the hardest hitting (by a lot) - it's also the heaviest, and most expensive.
The .300 blackout is about on par with the 7.62x39 (slightly better on paper, but who cares?)
The 5.56/223 (yes there's a difference - the barrel should be rated 5.56 - then it doesn't matter) is the lightest and least expensive (baring amazing deals on chinese 7.62x39 or similar) it also is the least effective.

Least effective is a pretty relative thing if you just got hit by one. The bigger cartridges are legal for deer in WA (where I live - might want to check your state) .223 is not.
My preference in order is: .308, .300 blackout, 5.56, 7.62x39 - but that's because the AR platform works better for me than the AK platform - might be the other way around for you.

There are a ton of other excellent cartridges out there but these 4 are probably the cheapest and most available to get the job done.

If I could have only one rifle I'd probably go with a AR-10 (.308) It's a few pounds heavier than an AR-15 but it's a much better hunting round - and more effective as a battle round. Other's would go with the AK or AR-15 for availability, cost and weight - and that's a VERY valid consideration.

Shotgun last unless you live in a remote area where there are so many ducks, geese, pheasant, grouse, etc. that you just can't resist.
If you have a 410 - that's fine stick with it. It won't be your primary defense gun anyway - it's adequate for birds - I shot a lot of skeet (a tiny bit of trap) with 410 28 20 and 12 - they all work.
If you don't have one - then when you find the budget for it (or come across the Most Excellent Deal) go with 12 primarily for ammo availability.
Perspective - A 410ga Slug is generally under 100 grains at about 1800fps or slower- Better than an AR, not as good as a .300 or 7.62xanything Slower, more expensive, bulkier, harder/slower to load - etc. Definitely not my first choice.

Don't get me wrong - Shotguns are fantastic in the right place - if you live in a one room house with cement walls, cool. If you live in an apartment - your pretty much asking to pepper your neighbors. You can hunt dear with slugs, birds with birdshot, use 00buck for defense - fantastic all around weapon - I just don't see it as the best choice for any activity except bird hunting.
I CAN do it. Doesn't mean I should, or will.
I think Life has treated me better than I've treated it, and I regret that. Can't change the past but I can affect the future. (--me)

momengineer
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by momengineer » Fri May 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Doc...sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that proper training, etc is a part of it. What I was trying to warn against is " paralysis by analysis". You can analyze something to death, but sometimes you just got to make a decision and go.

bearfish
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by bearfish » Fri May 04, 2012 8:27 pm

wguy00 wrote:I'm going to go against the grain here and say the OP doesn't need a gun of any flavor, yet.

The OP states he has a family, doesn't have very much money, and doesn't have a BOB in place. What about the rest of your preps? Anything? I'd take what little money I'd be spending on a gun and make sure that food and water are in place first. Not to mention that buying a gun is just the down payment. It needs to be fed and taken care of, just like every other member of the family. Will you be getting any training? That can be expensive too. Don't get a gun, not yet. After you've got a few weeks of food and water stored for your family, then look at getting a firearm.

Edit: Just realized this thread is two weeks old.
Don't worry I am beginning other preps I just lacked any real experience with firearms for anything other than hunting. I have to take really small baby steps because we have no money.
Looking for training with a handgun near me, so I can set aside money for it. I agree that the right weapon with no training (I am concerned about HD) could prove fatal (I am more worried about accidentally injuring one of my kids....I know, I know don't miss :wink: ).

I am continuing to research the things that I don't have a frame of reference for (tactical/firearms and medical are definitely my weak suits). Thankfully I officially start nursing classes this fall to become an RN which will help.

In the meantime I keep shopping and looking and reading etc. :D

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jor-el
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Re: I apologize if my ass is in my shoulders but...

Post by jor-el » Sat May 05, 2012 12:33 am

It's very good that you're starting out by getting training first.

Training should give you the knowledge base that's needed to make the informed decision about the RIGHT FOR YOU set of guns. Note I refer to the multiple.

You want to protect your family. That's not a one man job. A single human just cannot watch every angle of attack. You cannot be everywhere. Your SO should be factored in.

One good thing about training is it can be shared. Your wife can learn from you, and your children as well.

First gun? Live on a farm already? 500 Mossberg in 12 guage, preferably one with both a short "riot" barrel and a 28 inch hunter with choke tubes. You should be able to find one used or cheap.

Second gun's a choice; 9MM or .38 Special. I don't think there's anything more idiot proof than a .38 with 158 grain +P lead hollow points. With fresh ammo and a clean gun it's 6 shots for sure, limp wristing or sloppy handling won't affect reliability. There should still be used examples on the market. A used stainless steel Ruger or S+W in good condition may do it and still cost less than a Glock.
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

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