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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:50 pm 
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OK so, I've kinda got a plan on equipin' myself for the decline of mankind. I have some questions on .22 pistols, .45 ACP pistols, and 5.56 carbine options. But first:

I am currently in possession of:

Marlin Model 80 bolt action .22 LR

Remington .308 WIN bolt action

Remington 870 12 gauge

All are "sporter" styled wood stocks. All are family " passed down generation-to-generation heirlooms" (ok 2 gens), I don't anticipate selling any. I am lacking in the handgun department, as well as something in 5.56/.223, and I'd like to rectify that in roughly the following order:

Short term (0-6 months)
.22LR pistol. I don't need incredible accuracy, just reliability. A good plinker. But there are tone out there, Ruger mkII, Brownings etc... What's y'all's opinions on the best choice? I'd prefer to spend the lower side of $500

Within a Year or So
.223 /5.56 carbine I'm not looking for an AR, something more along the lines of a Kel Tec SU-16C or a Mini 14. Am I forgetting any other good options? The folding and mag interchangeability aspects of the Su-16 are highly appealing, but reliability is very important to me as well, and it seems the Mini 14 may have the SU-16 beaten there. Opinions?

WIthin Three Years I'd Say
.45 ACP pistol. There's a ton of them out there. I'm looking for indestructible reliability and high-capacity. The H&K USP and Para 14rd 1911 are front runners. Is there anything to be had for less that is comparable? Also are there any decent .45's that can be converted to 9mm/40 S&W? I know 9mmto 40S&W and back again are common-ish.

A Little Bit Farther Down the Road
590 Cruiser FTW, marine finish
Kel-Tec RFB, .308/7.62 This guy is just so full of awesomeness, pricey, but dang, really slaps the word "battle" next to "rifle"
Ruger 10/22
.357 Magnum revolver
.357 lever action rifle

In The Future Where Reality Slips Away and I Am Just Daydreaming
FN FS2000 ALL THE WAY!!
FN Five-seveN
FN PS90
Custom AR from LaRue Tactical, + AR-57 upper

Jeezus I have a hang up on FN, those damn Belgians.

>goes to eat some waffles

Anyway, thoughts, input? I am currently 18, but my parents have agreed to purchase the .22 pistol with me, so that is all cool there. Imma plannin' on waiting on the '45 till I'm 21 and CC certified and whatnot.
Thanks!
Kent

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:05 pm 
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I would take a second look at the AR, especially when compared to a mini-14 and a kel-tec.

For the a hi-cap .45 you cannot go wrong with a glock 21.

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Last edited by FlatFender on Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:11 pm 
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On the .22 = I like the Browning Buck Mark. But the Ruger is definitely something to look at as well. Many people like one or the other more. I favor the Browning because the stock trigger is just awesome. I like pretty much everything else about it too. Both makes come in tons of different variations, and most of them fit under your budget. I looked at a lot of .22s and ended up getting a Browning Buck Mark "Practical URX". Its a great little gun for the most part.

5.56 = Just get an AR :)

.45 = If you're waiting a few years to get one of these, I wouldn't worry about figuring it out right now. While there are a number of good .45 pistols out currently, there could (and probably will) be something else to consider 3 years from now.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:11 pm 
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Quote:
.45 ACP pistol. There's a ton of them out there. I'm looking for indestructible reliability and high-capacity. The H&K USP and Para 14rd 1911 are front runners. Is there anything to be had for less that is comparable? Also are there any decent .45's that can be converted to 9mm/40 S&W? I know 9mmto 40S&W and back again are common-is


neither the USP or P14 would be on my list. and i owned a P14
Glock, XD, M&P would be a better bet. i loved my P14 and didnt have any problems with it but many others reported issues. the H und K just isnt on my list

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:40 pm 
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You have a 308 bolt action, why not stay with a common caliber and set your sights on a Cetme or a FN/FAL and skip the .223?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:55 pm 
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i can smell the AR Vs Mini debate starting here lol. i will say this: the AR is an excellent weapons platform for its given purpose. that being said, i chose the Mini, and have not regretted it.this was mostly because what i wanted to make the mini Vs what i want from an AR, the mini was a cheaper buy for me. [i have quite expensive taste when it comes to planning my AR build, and i only had to spend a few hundred on my Mini to make her what i wanted].

the mags are more pricey over an AR and quality after-market mags arent something you'll easily find, but if you stick to the factory mags shell do you just fine.

mine is plenty accurate, shes more accurate than i am at this point, and ive had no reliability issues. ive run her until i literally had to chip the fouling off when i took the stock off, just to see how far shed go when dirty, and she never failed me. shes not ammunition sensitive, she eats anything shes fed [like her owner :D ]

as far as the handguns go, im not much help there being that i dont own any yet, but i will say ive fallen in love with the feel of the M&P series of handguns, although ive only shot one that was rented from a range.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:04 am 
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FlatFender wrote:
I would take a second look at the AR, especially when compared to a mini-14 and a kel-tec.

For the a hi-cap .45 you cannot go wrong with a glock 21.

Yes and yes.

What is your reason for not wanting an AR? If you're looking for a .223/5.56 it's probably the best overall choice.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:40 am 
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austin93906 wrote:
i can smell the AR Vs Mini debate starting here lol. i will say this: the AR is an excellent weapons platform for its given purpose. that being said, i chose the Mini, and have not regretted it.this was mostly because what i wanted to make the mini Vs what i want from an AR, the mini was a cheaper buy for me. [i have quite expensive taste when it comes to planning my AR build, and i only had to spend a few hundred on my Mini to make her what i wanted].



What could you do to the Mini14 more cheaply then an AR? I'm not interested in the Mini14 versus AR debate (I'm firmly on the AR side, but if somebody really wants a Mini14 that's ok), just curious. The AR has a MUCH larger after market, and I'm not sure what you could get for the Mini14 that would be cheaper then for an AR (assuming similar quality).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:44 am 
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alptraum wrote:
austin93906 wrote:
i can smell the AR Vs Mini debate starting here lol. i will say this: the AR is an excellent weapons platform for its given purpose. that being said, i chose the Mini, and have not regretted it.this was mostly because what i wanted to make the mini Vs what i want from an AR, the mini was a cheaper buy for me. [i have quite expensive taste when it comes to planning my AR build, and i only had to spend a few hundred on my Mini to make her what i wanted].



What could you do to the Mini14 more cheaply then an AR? I'm not interested in the Mini14 versus AR debate (I'm firmly on the AR side, but if somebody really wants a Mini14 that's ok), just curious. The AR has a MUCH larger after market, and I'm not sure what you could get for the Mini14 that would be cheaper then for an AR (assuming similar quality).



AR
cheaper parts
cheaper mags
more options more aftermarket support


Mini.
more A-Team references possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:48 am 
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Quote:
I'm not sure what you could get for the Mini14 that would be cheaper then for an AR


Resale value?

(rimshot!) :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:53 am 
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Hoppy wrote:
Mini.
more A-Team references possible.


Lol, true. It came on when I was around 10 and it made me want a Mini14 stainless folder bad. I shamefully admit I still sort of do, almost entirely due to that show. Around the age of ten that show had convinced me the Mini14 stainless folder was the most awesome rifle in the world. I don't even want to talk about what Airwolf made me think about helicopters.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:00 am 
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For a .22 pistol go with the Ruger Mk III or Browning BuckMark. Those are the "big two" for a reason.

I prefer the Ruger, but that's personal preference. There seem to be a lot more parts and upgrades available for the Ruger as well. There are bunch of different models available so you should be able to find one with the features you want.

As much as I hate to say it, for the budget you have, I'd go AR before any other 5.56 rifle out there. There are some good deals right now. Check out CDNN for S&W M&P's for $600 after rebate, That's a screaming deal.

The Ruger is OK when you could get it for half the price of an AR. That's no longer the case.

The AR is the new standard and parts and mags are so easy to get. It also has good ergonomics and accuracy and is the lego of rifles.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:24 am 
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The mini was only cheaper for me, because what i want in order to BUILD an AR will cost more. Sure, the price point of a bargin bin AR is the same as the mini. HOWEVER, if you throw in the loads of aftermarket parts and add a better barrel, new bolt and bolt carrier to upgrade, maybe you want a different stock and grip. Oh, that quad rail looks nice... Etc it easily adds up to way more than the 600 you started at. IM NOT SAYING THIS MAKES THE MINI A BETTER GUN. im just saying that for most people who want to upgrade their AR to a top tier rifle, it easily gets quite costly, even tho upgradeability is a huge plus for the AR platform.

Plus hell, california wont let me have a detachable mag in an AR, but no prob with the MIni. Plus, the OP said he doesnt want an AR. Im just telling him what i have found to be good with the mini in my experience. He said he was looking at either a mini or a kel tec. Not an AR.

Just trying to stay relevant to the original post and give the OP some useful info on one of the platforms he requested info on. Sorry to get the AR police rounded up :lol:

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So, How does it feel to be Batman? An obsolete rifle using, shingle shooting Batman, but Batman non the less.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:25 am 
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Trebor wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, for the budget you have, I'd go AR before any other 5.56 rifle out there. There are some good deals right now. Check out CDNN for S&W M&P's for $600 after rebate, That's a screaming deal.

The Ruger is OK when you could get it for half the price of an AR. That's no longer the case.


You can also wait for another one of CMMG's "bargain bin" sales. IIRC, those were "nick & scratch" ARs for $500ish.

Of course, if you want a "ranch" rifle, I'd go with a Kel-Tec over a Mini simply because of the folding stock.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:31 am 
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austin93906 wrote:
The mini was only cheaper for me, because what i want in order to BUILD an AR will cost more. Sure, the price point of a bargin bin AR is the same as the mini. HOWEVER, if you throw in the loads of aftermarket parts and add a better barrel, new bolt and bolt carrier to upgrade, maybe you want a different stock and grip. Oh, that quad rail looks nice... Etc it easily adds up to way more than the 600 you started at. IM NOT SAYING THIS MAKES THE MINI A BETTER GUN. im just saying that for most people who want to upgrade their AR to a top tier rifle, it easily gets quite costly, even tho upgradeability is a huge plus for the AR platform.

thats cute but a CMMG or a BCM build is more than a match to a Ruger in quality of barrel and bcg, pretty much all parts, no one siad you need rails, and frankly the only benifit a ruger gets is that they are not available. its like saying my mosin is better cause it doesnt tempt you with that fancy pants semi auto or modern removable box magazine expenses

Quote:

Plus hell, california wont let me have a detachable mag in an AR, but no prob with the MIni. Plus, the OP said he doesnt want an AR. Im just telling him what i have found to be good with the mini in my experience. He said he was looking at either a mini or a kel tec. Not an AR.

Just trying to stay relevant to the original post and give the OP some useful info on one of the platforms he requested info on. Sorry to get the AR police rounded up :lol:

reasonable arguement. carry on in that direction

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:37 am 
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Hoppy wrote:
Quote:

Plus hell, california wont let me have a detachable mag in an AR, but no prob with the MIni. Plus, the OP said he doesnt want an AR. Im just telling him what i have found to be good with the mini in my experience. He said he was looking at either a mini or a kel tec. Not an AR.

Just trying to stay relevant to the original post and give the OP some useful info on one of the platforms he requested info on. Sorry to get the AR police rounded up :lol:

reasonable arguement. carry on in that direction


While I did enjoy shooting austin's Mini, I still think a Saiga in a common caliber is a better choice simply for commonality and availability of parts. Of course, that's neither here nor there, especially considering that an SU 16 will take STANAG magazines and has a folding stock (and is CA and maybe MA legal) for a comparable price to the Mini.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:47 am 
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I did like me that saiga. Cant find one though lol.

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So, How does it feel to be Batman? An obsolete rifle using, shingle shooting Batman, but Batman non the less.

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whisk.e.rebellion wrote:
especially considering that an SU 16 will take STANAG magazines and has a folding stock (and is CA and maybe MA legal) for a comparable price to the Mini.



SU16 in its A, B and CA models (arguably D model but i wont argue NFA) are MA legal, only the C model would be banned in MA.

it does not have more than one of the following. folding stock ( that you can fire the gun with it folded) bayonet lug, grenade launcher, pistol grip or flash hiders.

*edit to add. we literally have an AWB that says "see 1994 federal ban"

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Hoppy wrote:
whisk.e.rebellion wrote:
especially considering that an SU 16 will take STANAG magazines and has a folding stock (and is CA and maybe MA legal) for a comparable price to the Mini.



SU16 in its A, B and CA models (arguably D model but i wont argue NFA) only the C model would be banned in MA.

it does not have more than one of the following. folding stock ( that you can fire the gun with it folded) bayonet lug, grenade launcher, pistol grip or flash hiders.


You mean your gun laws actually beat ours? Damn! :lol:

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whisk.e.rebellion wrote:
Hoppy wrote:
whisk.e.rebellion wrote:
especially considering that an SU 16 will take STANAG magazines and has a folding stock (and is CA and maybe MA legal) for a comparable price to the Mini.



SU16 in its A, B and CA models (arguably D model but i wont argue NFA) only the C model would be banned in MA.

it does not have more than one of the following. folding stock ( that you can fire the gun with it folded) bayonet lug, grenade launcher, pistol grip or flash hiders.


You mean your gun laws actually beat ours? Damn! :lol:


You still beat us :cry:

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austin93906 wrote:
The mini was only cheaper for me, because what i want in order to BUILD an AR will cost more. Sure, the price point of a bargin bin AR is the same as the mini. HOWEVER, if you throw in the loads of aftermarket parts and add a better barrel, new bolt and bolt carrier to upgrade, maybe you want a different stock and grip. Oh, that quad rail looks nice... Etc it easily adds up to way more than the 600 you started at. IM NOT SAYING THIS MAKES THE MINI A BETTER GUN. im just saying that for most people who want to upgrade their AR to a top tier rifle, it easily gets quite costly, even tho upgradeability is a huge plus for the AR platform.

Plus hell, california wont let me have a detachable mag in an AR, but no prob with the MIni. Plus, the OP said he doesnt want an AR. Im just telling him what i have found to be good with the mini in my experience. He said he was looking at either a mini or a kel tec. Not an AR.

Just trying to stay relevant to the original post and give the OP some useful info on one of the platforms he requested info on. Sorry to get the AR police rounded up :lol:


The CA restriction is the main valid point I can see. I can totally understand having a detachable mag rifle versus one that is not. I'm not very familiar with CA laws other then knowing they suck.

Outside of CA law it still doesn't make much sense to me though. CMMG bargain bin AR or the $599 (that does need sights or optics) S&W AR deal CDNN has gets you a better rifle then the Mini14 for less.

Like I said, I'm not interested in getting into an AR/Mini14 debate. I was just asking what you could do cheaper to a Mini14 then an AR. You didn't really answer that. You basically just said you want to spend more on an AR. Nothing wrong with that. I was just talking about the price points of a cheap AR versus a Mini14. Certainly you can spend much more on an AR.

What I'm talking about also mainly applies to spending $500-$650'ish. Thats well within bargain AR territory, more near the $600 mark then the $500 one though. And Mini14s are going for about $600-650 new. Though you can almost always find used Mini14s for less then used ARs. Of course there is a reason for that... I'm mainly talking about buying a new rifle though. This isn't even getting into AK discussion. But while I don't know all the specifics, I do understand it could be a huge pain or next to impossible to own an AR/AK in CA.

EDIT = Doh! I think I did get into an AK/AR/Mini14 debate. I'll try to stop now :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:59 am 
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Best advice? If you're not worried about compatibility/standards with a group, go to a range and rent/borrow various rifles and see which suits your needs best.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:21 am 
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I smells me a flame war. LOL ROFLCOPER. hahahahahahahaha.

Don't let these guys talk you into an AR if that's not what you want. Look up Bear_B's thread on Kel-Tec's customer service quality.

IIRC, his SU-16 was shipped without rear sights. He had such a hard time getting them to ship the right parts, he just gave up. Kel-Tec is a cheap gun company, and you get what you pay for. I'm just say'n

If you're cool with used guns, Ram-Line had a firearms co, called Ram-Tec, they made a cool .22 pistol. I'm pretty sure they went out of biz when ATK bought them out. Might be worth looking into. I bought one off gunbroker.com, it rocked.

My current carry weapon is a para ord TAC-4. I love it. The DA trigger on the LDA pistols totally rock. Smoooooooooooooooooooooth. 13 rds of .45ACP would put a hurt'n on some asshat. Planning on getting a P14LDA in the near future.

When you're ready to look for .357 mag revolvers, look hard at Ruger wheelguns. They rock. Very well built. Solid weapons.

Well that's about all I can think of right now.

Just my opinion, do with it what you will. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:56 am 
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Okay, question for you:

If you're buying all of these for a SHTF scenario, why go for a .22LR pistol first? Having a .22 is a great idea, but you have that covered with the Marlin. In my mind, I'd go for the .45acp first (Glocks and M&Ps can be had used for under $500). It can effectively be used for self defense, in a time and place where you may not be walking around with a 12ga out.

As far as choices go, for the .22 I'm a big fan of the Walther P22. Great ergonomics, popular enough to find aftermarket parts for it, and it's in your price range IIRC.

For the .45, I'm a fan of Glocks. I've had limited, but positive, experience with the S&W M&P series. You might also want to look at the Sig P220, they're expensive but Sigs are really top quality.

For the .223, there's the obvious AR and Mini14, but what about the HK, the SL8 I think it's called? Can't remember at the moment, but I think that's it. Oh, and maybe an HK93.

You might want to reconsider the .223 though if you plan on using that .308 you have. Common caliber is a great thing, and there are some good, affordable options for .308.


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