Appleseeds, experiences and questions

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Re: Appleseed Marksmanship Training

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:02 pm

500m is still tactical shooting with an MBR. Just saying.

ETA: With irons, no less.
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Re: Appleseed Marksmanship Training

Post by Neville » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:58 pm

The instructors were all pleasant. Even the one that was crusty, was the loveable crusty old codger type, not the crabby, mad at the world type.

Rifles - bring what you got, if you can pull the trigger, they let you use it. Like I said, it's challenging enough without the restrictions you mention. I did use iron sights the first day, and did dramatically reduce my group sizes. Second day I used a borrowed rifle with a scope, and did much better with that improvement.

No doubt, there are people who can flop down on the ground and put all their shots in a 4" group at 500 yards with a war surplus M1 Garand with iron sights. But there isn't one person in a thousand you could grab off the street, put that Garand in his hands as the first rifle he's ever fired, and have him doing that by the end of a two day course. I know that the military teaches marksmanship... and they spend a hell of a lot longer than 2 days teaching to achieve that level of skill with iron sights.

My hands aren't terribly steady and my eyesight was better 49 years ago than it is now. Not making excuses... I can still control breath, focus and a lot of other things and compensate for the eyesight with eyeglasses and a scope. If you at 20 years old can outshoot me at 50 with iron sights... well, is it all that much to brag on? The point of my post is not about how great a rifleman I am (I'm NOT) but about how a group is taking people from all walks of life, and teaching them the fundamentals of rifle shooting, for ACCURACY and not simply VOLUME OF FIRE. Thought someone here might find that of interest to them, for the purpose of building their skills.

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Re: Appleseed Marksmanship Training

Post by WY_Not » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:51 am

Crypto,

We don't care what you shoot as long as it is safe. We do tend to nudge people to iron sights but not a requirement. Scopes can sometimes be a hinderance due to the magnification. Yes you can see your target better but you also see every little movement your rifle makes. People tend to fuss the shot more when they see this movent. That movement is there with irons but you don't see it. Unfortunately people's eyes age and scopes become a requirement. In the end though, bring what you have and shoot what you bring.

As for the range of people and instructors... we don't care what your political leanings are. We just want people to get their ass off the couch, find an issue they feel strongly about, and get involved.

Just this instructor's $0.02 worth. Anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask here or in PM.
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Re: Appleseed Marksmanship Training

Post by crypto » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:15 am

No, I just meant that I'm not going to take my RDS off my AR to shoot an AS.


Are there any AS's that are out on long ranges, or is it all shot on the 25m AQT these days? I take AQT's to the range with me from time to time and wonder how you're supposed to account for something like holdover with one.
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Re: Appleseed Marksmanship Training

Post by WY_Not » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:29 am

You don't have to take the RDS off. You might want to though just to give it a try. :wink: We are serious when we say bring what you have and shoot what you bring. We get ALL kinds of rifles on the line; tube fed, bolt actions, lever actions, single shots, and all combos thereof. And people shoot Rifleman with them. The critical factor in being successful (as with most things in life) is a teachable attitude. A good GI loop sling really helps too. :lol:

Most AS are at 25m because that is what the course of fire is designed to be. The target sizes are simulated/scaled. Also, once you get dialed in at 25m BSZ is simple to figure out and use if you know the come-ups on your rifle. On Sunday, we do teach the long distance / known distance componant. If the range has the range, we'll set up targets at actual distances and shoot.

I have heard of a few special events where they shoot AQTs at known distance but have not had the luck to attend such an event. For a normal AS, there is simply too much instruction crammed in to two days. Most ranges aren't set up to allow people downrange to score targets and walking back and forth eats a lot of time. You could always check out an Rifleman's Boot Camp. A full week of instruction and shooting. And, if I remember correctly, it is done at full distance (at least at the home range of Ramseur, NC).

At Gibsonburg, OH they go out to 500m and we do set up a 20" steel targets at 500m. Sunday afternoon we'll take the students over and let them put what we've taught them to use; either with their own centerfires or with a loaner from an instructor. Many of the instructors bring out their "toys" to play when there is full distance capaple range.

Best story for that one is a couple months back a Mom and her son came to the event. Neither had shot anything more than BB guns in the back yard. She had bought/borrowed (can't remember which) two .22lr rifles. Sunday afternoon we go over to the 500m line. She gets behind one of the instructors' M1A's. She rings steel on her first shot. She rang steel several more times before letting someone else try. She was grinning from ear to ear the rest of the day. A month later she ran into one of the instructors in the grocery and was still amped up about being able to take what she learned at 25m and make the steel ring at 500m with irons. For a new shooter, it is very empowering.
crypto wrote:No, I just meant that I'm not going to take my RDS off my AR to shoot an AS.

Are there any AS's that are out on long ranges, or is it all shot on the 25m AQT these days? I take AQT's to the range with me from time to time and wonder how you're supposed to account for something like holdover with one.
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by The7thNazgul » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:08 pm

Occaisonally there will be a known distance (or KD) AS ,but those are usually restricted to experienced riflemen and instructors. Trust me, learn it at 25 yards with a .22. You will save money.

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by azstinger » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:22 pm

When I get back from my next deployment I am going to an AS event. Of these 3 rifle choices what would be the recommended; AK74 w/iron sight (potentially an eotech sight but doubtful), M1 Garand, or 77/22 with a hunting scope on it (has no iron sights or the capability to support them)?

edit: the only reason the 77/22 isn't a no brainer for me is that it has optics. While I know it is allowed, still feels a bit like cheating.

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by WY_Not » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:15 am

In all honesty, bring what you are comfortable with and what you are willing to feed and what will handle two full days of shooting. I've seen all three and then some on the line. While I love seeing the .30 cals on the line, they are getting pricey to feed now a days.
azstinger wrote:When I get back from my next deployment I am going to an AS event. Of these 3 rifle choices what would be the recommended; AK74 w/iron sight (potentially an eotech sight but doubtful), M1 Garand, or 77/22 with a hunting scope on it (has no iron sights or the capability to support them)?

edit: the only reason the 77/22 isn't a no brainer for me is that it has optics. While I know it is allowed, still feels a bit like cheating.
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Question

Post by tedbeau » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:32 pm

I would like to attend an appleseed shoot in the next year ot two with my grandson. I jsut purchased a Ruger 10/22 takedown model. My question is that it appears that s sling is required for an appleseed event and I was wondering about a recommendation for a sling for a ruger 10/22. The takedown model doesn't have and sling mounting hardware on it so I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

Also what are the opinons on using a scope verses iron sights, and are the standard ruger sights good enough?

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Zombland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:58 pm

Most folks would have a very difficult time doing well at Appleseed without the proper use of a sling. I'm not familiar with your particular model of 10-22, but if it can't take a sling I think you're really setting yourself up for failure (with "failure" defined as not qualifying as "rifleman"--you'll still have lots of fun). (If you live in the Boston area, contact me off line and I can arrange for you to use my own 10-22--sling equipped and with the Tech Sights mentioned below.)

The OEM iron sights on the 10-22 are fine for plinking at cans, but entirely inadequate for the demands of any serious shooting (and Appleseed, while great fun, is serious shooting). If you're bent on iron sights, Tech Sights makes a well-designed set of iron sights for the 10-22, similar in design and use to the sights on a Garand. (Their web site is at: http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.) But Appleseed has no objection to you using optics, so if you don't have a need to prove anything vis a vis iron sights, optics might be an advisable option.

Appleseed is doable by most anybody using proper technique. Unfortunately, most of us think our technique is a lot better than it is. Appleseed will expose any such shortcomings ruthlessly. They will also work with you tirelessly to overcome those shortcomings. Great group.

Have fun, maintain realistic expectations, and follow their shooting advice, and all will turn out well.

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Zombland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:02 pm

As for recommendations for a particular sling for the 10-22, you'll need both the sling and sling swivels or other hardware on which to mount the swing. Again, I'm not familiar with your particular model of 10-22. On my wood-stocked model, there were numerous options available. Google and I'm sure you'll come across tons of stuff. The sling isn't magic, it just needs to be solid, and there's lots of perfectly functional options out there for the 10-22 (although again I don't know what constraints you rung up against with a "take-down" model).

FYI, Appleseed's web site has tons of advice ont his kind of thing. First place I'd suggest you dig around.

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by ninja-elbow » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:20 pm

I did fine with the good-'ol canvas GI M1 sling.
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Prof. C.J. » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:14 pm

Just wanted to throw out an open invitation that anyone with Appleseed-related questions is welcome to PM me if you like. I'm a Red Hat Instructor with the Appleseed program in Florida. (I'm Prof. C.J. on the Appleseed forum as well.)

I'm a huge fan of the program and think it's THE BEST crash course in rock-solid fundamentals of rifle marksmanship you'll find anywhere, and also a great place to get acquainted with your revolutionary heritage as an American.

I know lots of ZS'ers have gone to Appleseed shoots (and some who are instructors like me), but I want to encourage anyone who hasn't come and who is interested in improving his or her rifle marksmanship to come to an event as soon as he or she can scrounge enough rounds.

BTW, at the events I've worked lately, we've altered our instruction to reduce the round count in various ways while still teaching you the skills through dryfire and various other drills, and believe me, it works very well and often results in more and quicker progress than you get with higher amounts of live fire, counterintuitive as that may seem. Don't let the ammo scarcity scare ya!

Hope to see you on the firing line!

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Re: Question

Post by Dwarven1 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:13 pm

Dogan wrote:Image
I am registered for the July 16 & 17 shoot!

Also practicing and concentrating on the front post have gotten my groups from about 20 MOA down to 3. And I haven't even been to the Appleseed yet. :wink:
Good grief!! I'm infamous.

Just logged back into ZS after a long hiatus and noticed the Appleseed thread. Thought I'd read it... and THIS post just jumped out at me.

Why? Because that's my Rifleman patch and my motivator!! I figured up the cost after finally shooting a Rifleman score and wrote that up. Back in 2008, that is. :lol: The patch in the picture? It's on my vest. I just posted the motivator on Northeastshooters.com to encourage others to come to an Appleseed.

BTW, just as a bit of introduction, I was happy to make Rifleman status because then I could get my orange hat as an Instructor in Training. Every instructor you see on the line (with maybe the exception of Fred (the founder of Project Appleseed) and Nickle, the chief master instructor) started on the line at a shoot, learning from the beginning. Two shoots minimum and a Rifleman score... that gets you the opportunity to get an orange hat. And spend another five weekends being an instructor in training, learning how to teach what you just learned. And assuming you pass all the proficiency checks, then you earn your red hat. Want to run the shoots? Another three shoots as a shoot boss in training... And it's all worth it when you see your students learning to shoot better and hearing the story of April 19th the way it should be taught in schools. And after my first shoot, I caught the fire - I wanted to share what I'd learned.

These days I'm a shoot boss, newly moved to VT... and I'll be instructing again this year after a 1 year layoff. So if you're in Vermont for an Appleseed, I hope I see you on the line.
tedbeau wrote:I would like to attend an appleseed shoot in the next year ot two with my grandson. I jsut purchased a Ruger 10/22 takedown model. My question is that it appears that s sling is required for an appleseed event and I was wondering about a recommendation for a sling for a ruger 10/22. The takedown model doesn't have and sling mounting hardware on it so I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction.

Also what are the opinons on using a scope verses iron sights, and are the standard ruger sights good enough?
Well... little bit late for this reply, but maybe it'll be useful for someone. Tedbeau, the Ruger takedown is a fine rifle - although it could use some tweaking. The Appleseed store has slings in stock for about $14 or so with the shipping. You'll need 1.25" sling swivels and studs with it to mount it; I like the Uncle Mike's swivels best. They seem to hold up the best.

As for the sights... I personally hate them. They're adjustable, but not in fine enough increments. Get a set of Tech-Sights (http://www.tech-sights.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) for your takedown. The TS100 is fine if you don't think you'll ever shoot out past 25 yards... but if you want to stretch the reach of that Ruger a bit, splurge (all of $10 more) and get the TS200 - they have a longer adjustment so you can adjust your sights to shoot out well past 100 yards.

And to answer Crypto's question, yes, many Appleseed Shoots shoot at 100 yards or longer. Events at Leyden Rifle Club in Leyden MA use the 250 yard range, and in Jericho VT there's a 600 yard range.

Here's a thread that I started some 5 years ago about turning a 10/22 into a Liberty Training Rifle: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulle ... ning-Rifle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can also BUY them as Marlin has come out with an LTR based on their excellent 795 platform: http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ltr-marlin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (disclaimer: I own three 10/22s... and a Marlin Papoose (a takedown 795, basically). Both great rifles; neither one perfect.)

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by 00dlez » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:00 am

Anyone done an AS in the fall/winter months? I seems that the ones closest to me are filled up for the nicer late summer/early fall dates and I might have to attend in November/December... Should I just hold off until spring?
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Andy in NH » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:17 pm

00dlez wrote:Anyone done an AS in the fall/winter months?
I've been to several AS events in NH during the winter months.

There are a few other venues around New England (and probably the nation) that also host "Winterseeds".

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by 00dlez » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:14 pm

Just completed my first Appleseed this weekend and thought I'd post an AAR on it for posterity.

Disclaimer: I've only shot about 600 rounds (including the 500 at the AS) through my first rifle which I bought about a month ago. I'm as green as they came. Most of the 10-12 year old boy scouts that were also at the shoot had more experience than me.

Equipment: M&P 15-22 with iron sights and 25 round magazines. I did not have a GI sling, but used an unpadded web hasty sling and feel like it was working fine.

On the AQT's my first and lowest score was an 85, but by the end of Sunday I had 3 "respectable" scores of 125, 135, and 135... Self scored, but conservatively so and without using the 30-cal rule... Maybe I could get to 140 on one of them if I really begged for it. Overall, I feel like it was respectable improvement with a lot of tools for practice in the coming months. For kicks I took my best score from each stage and scored a 162 (before gimmie/.30cal rule bumps)... I was happy enough with it.

We shot 4 redcoat targets on the weekend. 3 of the 4 I landed all 100 yard targets and also got at least 1 shot on the 200, 300, and 400 yard targets. Hit two shingles too.

Things I learned - Shooting related:
1. The sitting position was the most difficult for me and the rest of the line - I started to get the hang of it far too late to hope for a rifleman score, but I feel like I have enough grasp on it now that with some diligent practice I can start to see a lot of improvement with it. THE CANTING WAS MY BIGGEST PROBLEM AND I DIDN'T REALIZE IT UNTIL MUCH LATER. I could not find a comfortable seated position for the life of me, but I eventually opened up my canting a bit and it made a world of difference. On some of the AQTs I failed to score double digits on the seated stage, but once I was more aware of the canting I was scoring in the 30s like with the other stages.

2a. Longer magazines are doable but should be avoided - It wasn't a huge deal that I had the larger magazines, but I think I would have been better served with smaller ones if I had them. Unless you really want them for applications other than an AS I'd recommend NOT buying any, but if you have them, bring them. I was able to find my positions comfortably with the, but between the sling, my forward arm, mag changes etc etc, they did get a little bulky and hard to maneuver... at least for a novice like myself.

2b. If you have a standard 10/22 or more "traditional" styled rifle, bring that instead of a more modern/tactical whatever rifle like my 15-22. See above. It just looked simpler and more manageable. I'm still perfectly happy with my 15-22 purchase and am excited to practice with it in the future, but I would admit that having the relatively more complex/bulky platform was probably less than ideal for a first timer new to everything. YMMV.

3. NPOA isn't something they made up - once I was able to fully grasp what it was and how to control it, I started doing better.

Things I learned - Not shooting related:
1. Be prepared for the weather - it was an unseasonable 85 degrees and both days (late September... probably about 20 degrees above the average for these parts). I was ready for it in dress and otherwise (hydrate!) but I think someone who wasn't consciously thinking about it would have had a bad time.

2. Take notes - Obviously I didn't shoot rifleman, but now I think I know what I don't know and can practice on my own to the point where I should be more competitive if I go to another AS. The lessons are brief and then it's right back to the firing line to apply them, so jotting down the key points to remember was very helpful for me to go back and review.




Overall....
Fantastic experience and would recommend. The instructors were very helpful and were able to work with a newbie like me and the seasoned shooter next to me without skipping a beat. For $60, I don't think I could have asked for a better learning opportunity.
I expected the historical "3 Strikes" lessons to be much more "fire and brimstone" style than they were. I'm sure it varies from AS to AS and instructor to instructor, and maybe they were toned down due to half the line being young scouts, but I thought they were great. With the sun the way it was all weekend taking 20 minutes to sit in the shade, drink a bottle of water and listen to "historical story time" was a welcomed break.
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by WY_Not » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:27 am

Just a quick bump to remind people that AS season is starting up again. We have shoots on the schedule already. Go find one, sign up, and go. :mrgreen:
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by 00dlez » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Already signed up for one in Mid-April - now to convince the GF she should go also...
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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Frieslander » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:34 pm

I shot my first Appleseed a couple of weeks ago and earned a patch with my CZ 452. Working a bolt gun that fast is a big job, but rapid AQTs alleviate the clubbing a bolt-action can take on Stage 2 by allowing the shooter to manage their own time (I shot two rapid AQTs and qualified on both runs).

Bring what you have and go hog wild, but understand that without a loop sling you will be adding difficulty to the test. It can be done, but a sling will help you do it repeatably and is a huge help in sitting/kneeling positions.

Slung in prone, I shot several groups over the weekend that I would not necessarily have been able to tell apart from bench shooting with the ammunition I was using (right about .25" CTC). Without a sling I shot ragged groups but came within one round on the simulated 400-yard bull of clearing my first redcoat. By the end of the weekend clearing redcoats was something I could just expect my rifle to do.

Scope shooters will generally have their oculars set too far to the rear for prone thanks to bench shooting, so bring allen wrenches or whatever else you would need to adjust your rings your rifle is scoped. I fought scope shadow all day Sunday and it was one of the main reasons I had trouble with timed Stage 2s during the grind - hard to get off 10 rounds in 55 seconds with a bolt action if you are holding your head out of NPOA to make it work with incorrectly positioned glass. I picked up a spare allen set right away and threw it in my range bag so I never have to do that again.

I would also take a stab at cleaning up your trigger. It is much easier to shoot the AQT with a good one than it is to wrestle a bad one, and personally I think new shooters learn faster on a non-shitty sear/hammer interface because it's one less variable to deal with. My CZ has a Rifle Basix, but you can find Volquartsen/Jard/MCARBO/whoever kits for most common rimfire rifles now for as little or as much as you want. This also forces you to be familiar with how your rifle works as you make the parts changes.

High magnification is not necessary to shoot Rifleman. I shot the whole weekend at 4x because that's as low as my rimfire scope goes, but 2x or 3x would have been just fine.

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Re: Appleseeds, experiences and questions

Post by Garand69 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:36 am

While the Appleseed Project and I parted ways several years ago, I still highly reccommend attending one regardless your current skill level.

The knowledge you gain for such a small price is hard to beat. BUT, it is only a start, once you have Rifleman under your belt, try a Highpower match or two and of course if your into runnin and gunnin, a three gun. Owning the most accurate rifle on the planet, does not make you the most accurate shooter on the planet. Get out and train!
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