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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:23 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
I may be wrong , but I think the point Stercutus was making is there is a sidearm present in all those pictures.


Well I"m blind. Thanks for setting me straight.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:21 am 
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woodsghost wrote:
flybynight wrote:
I may be wrong , but I think the point Stercutus was making is there is a sidearm present in all those pictures.


Well I"m blind. Thanks for setting me straight.


Yep, only one long gun (I can't tell the type) the rest all appear to be pistols. The guy with the long gun looks like he was sitting most of the day.

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Further, the people snapping pictures are not likely to be the people currently needing weapons.


Technically no one "needs" a gun. However the point is more along the lines of the appearance of a gun tends to compel better behavior out of some people.

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And those images tell a story which make me suspect a pistol would be sufficient in the vast majority of cases. My observations of real disasters and discussions in this thread have changed my mind on a lot of things.


Agreed. Since rifles account for less than 5% of all assaults in the US it is a rare thing indeed to be in a long gun fight. However I can assure you of two things:
- Beyond any doubt, being in a long gun fight with a pistol is an extremely uncomfortable, unhappy place to be
- A long gun has way more capability than a pistol, so if you have one in a pistol fight your odds of a good result improve dramatically

But your odds of being in such a fight are very low. Of course the odds of a thousand year flood occurring in your life time are also low.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:59 am 
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The Weather Channel is airing a program on the survivors of Hurricane Katrina. After seeing some of the stories about marauders going after those trying to evacuating, I'm thoroughly convinced to that a long arm is necessary to provide security during pack up.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:22 pm 
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Close_enough wrote:
The Weather Channel is airing a program on the survivors of Hurricane Katrina. After seeing some of the stories about marauders going after those trying to evacuating, I'm thoroughly convinced to that a long arm is necessary to provide security during pack up.

Does that mean when people are packing things from their house into their vehicle in preparation to evacuate?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:43 pm 
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Close_enough wrote:
The Weather Channel is airing a program on the survivors of Hurricane Katrina. After seeing some of the stories about marauders going after those trying to evacuating, I'm thoroughly convinced to that a long arm is necessary to provide security during pack up.


Yeah, I"d love to know what the program was? Is it available online? Or were they written interviews?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:19 am 
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Theoretical discussion and conjecture warning....

I think that the pistol is the most pragmatic firearm for personal defense in any sort of 'bug-out' situation, save for those instances where the exfiltration takes place through isolated wilderness areas or if vehicle transport is a reliable option. A guy with a pistol tucked out of sight can muster adequate defensive firepower without sticking out of the crowd at all. A guy carrying a longarm is going to draw attention from somebody, whether that's the civil authority, panicked refugees, acquisitive marauders, etc.

Personally, I think the trunk-gun in the vehicle and the grab-n-go sidearm are the best combination, if they are available to you. A firearm suited to your AO left in your BOL is also a sensible prep, like a large-caliber rifle and shotgun stored, with ammo, in a hunting cabin.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:19 am 
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Doryman wrote:
A guy carrying a longarm is going to draw attention from somebody, whether that's the civil authority, panicked refugees, acquisitive marauders, etc.


I'm working on getting a foldable 9mm carbine that can fit into a backpack... hopefully, that can become best of both worlds, in that a pistol would be handy and a rifle would be available, without sticking out like a sore thumb.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:32 am 
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There is some great discussion on this here. My reasoning is relative to my location, needs, assumptions and risk assessments. Most of my scenarios are “bugging home”. If we need to bug out, it will be by convoy and we’ll take as much as we can (weapon wise).

If you look at most disasters, there’s a short window during evacuation where chaos rules. Yes, there will be those who take advantage, but it’s less likely it’s organized or larger than a group of two or three. My own analysis puts that window between 72-hours and 120-hours. Most people are concerned about their own safety, family and just evacuating or getting rescued. The need for security is directly proportional to the time of the crisis; as the time goes on, the need for security goes up. If you can’t “bug out” or “bug-home” in less than five days, security and self-defense become a great need.

As a crisis’ time lengthens, so does the desperation of those trapped or evacuating. Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region. Evacuees become victims and/or aggressors. If stuck in a group of evacuees, you’ll most likely be in camps with rules or small groups with no rules; self-defense is important, but it’s more important to avoid large groups. Theft and desperation will exponentially increase as food, medicine, and potable water decrease. So from my perspective, if you are on foot and 5-7 days from your home or bug-out location, you want to move fast and stay solo as much as possible, sleeping well off the beaten path or roadways. A pistol would provide enough protection initially and provide more space for food and water to keep you moving faster and further.

The majority of my planning is a simple pistol for carrying concealed. If I’m traveling further distances (rather than just regular work or into a larger town about 30 miles away), I will strongly consider a compact or break-down carbine (rifle or PCC). Of course the worst case scenario is stranded on foot more than a week away from home; however, you can’t plan for every scenario, just the most likely or most probable. If I’m within a seven days, foot-travel, a pistol would be enough to get me home, not draw attention and allow me a little more flexibility to travel faster.

If the more recent regional evacuations (fires and flooding) have shown us anything, it’s being prepared to bug out quickly, before getting trapped and is the most important aspect. My assumptions take into account that even those with criminal intent are in the same boat for the first few days. It’s only after they no they’re trapped or desperation sets in that they start to organize and move beyond basic petty theft and start active aggression, rape and killing for basic necessities; that is what I would expect after those first 72-hours. Of course, location, geography, social-economics all play a big role. An urban environment most likely would collapse faster with a much great propensity for violence and threat vectors.

ROCK6


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:42 pm 
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ROCK6 wrote:
There is some great discussion on this here. My reasoning is relative to my location, needs, assumptions and risk assessments. Most of my scenarios are “bugging home”. If we need to bug out, it will be by convoy and we’ll take as much as we can (weapon wise).

If you look at most disasters, there’s a short window during evacuation where chaos rules. Yes, there will be those who take advantage, but it’s less likely it’s organized or larger than a group of two or three. My own analysis puts that window between 72-hours and 120-hours. Most people are concerned about their own safety, family and just evacuating or getting rescued. The need for security is directly proportional to the time of the crisis; as the time goes on, the need for security goes up. If you can’t “bug out” or “bug-home” in less than five days, security and self-defense become a great need.

As a crisis’ time lengthens, so does the desperation of those trapped or evacuating. Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region. Evacuees become victims and/or aggressors. If stuck in a group of evacuees, you’ll most likely be in camps with rules or small groups with no rules; self-defense is important, but it’s more important to avoid large groups. Theft and desperation will exponentially increase as food, medicine, and potable water decrease. So from my perspective, if you are on foot and 5-7 days from your home or bug-out location, you want to move fast and stay solo as much as possible, sleeping well off the beaten path or roadways. A pistol would provide enough protection initially and provide more space for food and water to keep you moving faster and further.

The majority of my planning is a simple pistol for carrying concealed. If I’m traveling further distances (rather than just regular work or into a larger town about 30 miles away), I will strongly consider a compact or break-down carbine (rifle or PCC). Of course the worst case scenario is stranded on foot more than a week away from home; however, you can’t plan for every scenario, just the most likely or most probable. If I’m within a seven days, foot-travel, a pistol would be enough to get me home, not draw attention and allow me a little more flexibility to travel faster.

If the more recent regional evacuations (fires and flooding) have shown us anything, it’s being prepared to bug out quickly, before getting trapped and is the most important aspect. My assumptions take into account that even those with criminal intent are in the same boat for the first few days. It’s only after they no they’re trapped or desperation sets in that they start to organize and move beyond basic petty theft and start active aggression, rape and killing for basic necessities; that is what I would expect after those first 72-hours. Of course, location, geography, social-economics all play a big role. An urban environment most likely would collapse faster with a much great propensity for violence and threat vectors.

ROCK6


Of tangent interest on flooding and hurricanes:
http://gizmodo.com/how-a-hurricane-is-g ... 1786044931
In order of likelihood:
You drown by not evacuating and while awaiting rescue
You drown attempting to self evacuate when it's too late
You die from fire or CO poisoning while bugging in
You fall off roof/ladder/tree or electrocute yourself while attempting to shore up for the storm
Same as above while trying to clean up after storm

Lessons:
Don't be pigheaded. When it's time to leave, make like a shepherd and get the flock out of there.
Know what the heck you're doing with anything that involves heights, electricity, fire, or power tools/equipment.
Prepare starts with the prefix "pre", meaning before, meaning not waiting till the last moment to take appropriate measures.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:19 pm 
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For bugouts here, if I am on foot, XD40 only. If in a vehicle, Ill be taking a rifle too.

But for Zombies, this.
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:02 pm 
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Dawgboy wrote:
For bugouts here, if I am on foot, XD40 only. If in a vehicle, Ill be taking a rifle too.

But for Zombies, this.
Image

Needs more rails, and a flashlight. Minimum

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Quote:
Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region.


If become a refugee in the US can I go to Germany or Sweden and get a free apartment, job and stipend?

:v:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region.


If become a refugee in the US can I go to Germany or Sweden and get a free apartment, job and stipend?

I'm going to ignore the blueness of the text and treat it as a real question.

You could do that. Fly (sail, swim ...) to Germany, Sweden, the UK etc. and file for political asylum because (reasons). You'll get whatever the going rate is for subsistence[1] until your asylum claim is processed, then you'll either be allowed to stay or returned to your country of origin, depending on how good your (reasons) are.

Here's the guide if you fancy the UK (has language advantages for an Anglophone):
https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/overview

Obviously you'll have to leave your bug out gun behind ...

[1] The going rate for asylum support in the UK is housing (not a house, often a bed in a hostel) plus £36.95 (around $50) a week. You'll probably also get NHS healthcare.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:53 pm 
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sheddi wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region.


If become a refugee in the US can I go to Germany or Sweden and get a free apartment, job and stipend?

I'm going to ignore the blueness of the text and treat it as a real question.

You could do that. Fly (sail, swim ...) to Germany, Sweden, the UK etc. and file for political asylum because (reasons). You'll get whatever the going rate is for subsistence[1] until your asylum claim is processed, then you'll either be allowed to stay or returned to your country of origin, depending on how good your (reasons) are.

Here's the guide if you fancy the UK (has language advantages for an Anglophone):
https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/overview

Obviously you'll have to leave your bug out gun behind ...

[1] The going rate for asylum support in the UK is housing (not a house, often a bed in a hostel) plus £36.95 (around $50) a week. You'll probably also get NHS healthcare.


So, how far can you get on 36 quid a week?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:41 am 
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Apologies for drifting off the topic of Firearms.
Dawgboy wrote:
sheddi wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Think of Syria and how that has affected the whole region.

If become a refugee in the US can I go to Germany or Sweden and get a free apartment, job and stipend?

I'm going to ignore the blueness of the text and treat it as a real question.

You could do that. Fly (sail, swim ...) to Germany, Sweden, the UK etc. and file for political asylum because (reasons). You'll get whatever the going rate is for subsistence[1] until your asylum claim is processed, then you'll either be allowed to stay or returned to your country of origin, depending on how good your (reasons) are.

Here's the guide if you fancy the UK (has language advantages for an Anglophone):
https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/overview

Obviously you'll have to leave your bug out gun behind ...

[1] The going rate for asylum support in the UK is housing (not a house, often a bed in a hostel) plus £36.95 (around $50) a week. You'll probably also get NHS healthcare.


So, how far can you get on 36 quid a week?

There's this thread over in Family Prep where we're looking at feeding yourself on $4/day, which is around £3/day or £21/week. It can be done.

That leaves £15/week for "everything else" - heat/light/power, clothing, phone calls, bus fares, whatever. You'll survive but you're definitely in poverty.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:00 pm 
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Ok, as fascinating as European immigration policy is, lets bring this thread back on topic.

On this forum the consensus is that a bug out pistol should probably have a few characteristics:

1) Be reliable.
2) Be magazine fed.
3) Have a capacity of 10-15 rounds. More if possible/reasonable.
4) Be concealable.

The reasoning seems to be that pistols are more useful in most common bug out scenarios. You don't want to appear armed and you might get in a fight where you need to fight multiple opponents and might need to reload a few times. Ok. Seems reasonable.

Then we look at pictures from this most recent bug out in Louisiana, and we see people open carrying pistols. I"m not sure if open carry would be wise if traveling near areas under thread of riots or not. I"m really not sure what the common method of carry is during the post-hurricane scene up and down along the coast. Or after tornadoes. I probably need to do some image searches, but it seems to me that open carry may be more acceptable on or near the scene. Probably less acceptable the further you get from the center of any disaster.

And how often do people actually use their gun in firefights during disasters? How often do those firefights last more than a few rounds on each side?

So what about using revolvers as your bug out gun? The reason I"m asking is I won't be able to lay hands on an auto before the elections, which has been a primary concern. But I have a few revolvers, and a friend (and very good gunsmith) offered to get my Taurus .38 running reliably (shoots 18-30 rounds and starts to slow down and then seize up). He will also get my Colt Commando (military copy of the Police Positive .38 made roughly from '41 to '43) up and running. So without spending a ton of money I can get my two .38 revolvers up and running. I also have a S&W 642-1 (J frame .38). At this point I am heavily invested in .38, and once I get my hands on my Taurus and Colt in December (currently stored in a different state) I can have 3 pistols, 1 caliber, and focus on increasing my ability to reload the caliber so I can stay knee deep in lead if there is a shortage. I have probably 1,000 empty brass cases for .38 and all the equipment for reloading. I just need more powder, primers, and bullets.

So I"m saying sticking with .38 seems really financially and logistically attractive. Does this seem reasonable for most of y'all? Not as a life-time commitment, but as a 6-96 month solution, depending on the financial and political winds?

And yeah, I"ll have to read through the thread on revolvers as bug out guns.

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=59785

Thanks for any input!

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If you already have a revolver, sticking to a revolver seems reasonable to me. Since you actually have three revolvers in .38 Special it makes even more sense.

Is the availability of semi-autos starting to become a problem in your area? Or is it the availability of ammo? Both?

I believe that semi-auto handguns have more advantages than revolvers, especially when a person is talking about decent sized handguns and not pocket guns. That said, revolvers still work.

Are there statistics or studies on violence during or following natural disasters? I'm not aware of any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

My understanding is that more often than not people tend to come together and help each other during and following natural disasters. That doesn't necessarily mean that everything will go smoothly for you or the area you are in/traveling through. I think there is legitimate reason to want a little more firepower on hand when things are going to shit, but I don't know that a buying a handgun specifically for bugging out is worth it. However, if you want such a gun anyway for other purposes, and it happens to also be a better firearm for bugging out, then go for it (finances permitting).

As for open carry, I think it depends entirely on individual circumstances. What's the disaster? Where are you, where are you going and where are you going through to get there? That kind of thing. If open carry is already well accepted in a specific community then I wouldn't worry about open carrying there. If it's a community where open carry is not accepted or barely tolerated in normal times then it seems like a bad idea to carry openly there during a disaster. By going concealed from the start it seems like you wouldn't have to worry about it as much.


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woodsghost wrote:
Ok, as fascinating as European immigration policy is, lets bring this thread back on topic.

On this forum the consensus is that a bug out pistol should probably have a few characteristics:

1) Be reliable.
2) Be magazine fed.
3) Have a capacity of 10-15 rounds. More if possible/reasonable.
4) Be concealable.

The reasoning seems to be that pistols are more useful in most common bug out scenarios. You don't want to appear armed and you might get in a fight where you need to fight multiple opponents and might need to reload a few times. Ok. Seems reasonable.

Then we look at pictures from this most recent bug out in Louisiana, and we see people open carrying pistols. I"m not sure if open carry would be wise if traveling near areas under thread of riots or not. I"m really not sure what the common method of carry is during the post-hurricane scene up and down along the coast. Or after tornadoes. I probably need to do some image searches, but it seems to me that open carry may be more acceptable on or near the scene. Probably less acceptable the further you get from the center of any disaster.

And how often do people actually use their gun in firefights during disasters? How often do those firefights last more than a few rounds on each side?

So what about using revolvers as your bug out gun? The reason I"m asking is I won't be able to lay hands on an auto before the elections, which has been a primary concern. But I have a few revolvers, and a friend (and very good gunsmith) offered to get my Taurus .38 running reliably (shoots 18-30 rounds and starts to slow down and then seize up). He will also get my Colt Commando (military copy of the Police Positive .38 made roughly from '41 to '43) up and running. So without spending a ton of money I can get my two .38 revolvers up and running. I also have a S&W 642-1 (J frame .38). At this point I am heavily invested in .38, and once I get my hands on my Taurus and Colt in December (currently stored in a different state) I can have 3 pistols, 1 caliber, and focus on increasing my ability to reload the caliber so I can stay knee deep in lead if there is a shortage. I have probably 1,000 empty brass cases for .38 and all the equipment for reloading. I just need more powder, primers, and bullets.

So I"m saying sticking with .38 seems really financially and logistically attractive. Does this seem reasonable for most of y'all? Not as a life-time commitment, but as a 6-96 month solution, depending on the financial and political winds?

And yeah, I"ll have to read through the thread on revolvers as bug out guns.

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=59785

Thanks for any input!


I think .38 is fine ( if you've trained with it )

I was just revisiting a old site and I thought this might be somewhat pertinent.
Rules 7-13 USMC rules for a gunfight

7.In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8.If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9.Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10.Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
11.Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
12.Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
13.Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:43 pm 
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Thanks! Just needing a little perspective.

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Neptune Glory wrote:
Doryman wrote:
A guy carrying a longarm is going to draw attention from somebody, whether that's the civil authority, panicked refugees, acquisitive marauders, etc.


I'm working on getting a foldable 9mm carbine that can fit into a backpack... hopefully, that can become best of both worlds, in that a pistol would be handy and a rifle would be available, without sticking out like a sore thumb.


GOT IT. :clap: Out of the box accurate at 25 yards, 15/15 shots center mass on a standard target at an indoor range. Folds easily and I carried it in and out in a simple backpack.

So, pistol always handy... but if some trouble starts nearby, duck down and deploy the carbine. Then either wait for the trouble to go away, or deal with it if it becomes a legitimate threat, from outside of standard pistol range.

"If you can hit them, and they can't hit you, you win!" -Don Paul, Great Livin' in Grubby Times

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:42 am 
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Neptune Glory wrote:

GOT IT. :clap: Out of the box accurate at 25 yards, 15/15 shots center mass on a standard target at an indoor range. Folds easily and I carried it in and out in a simple backpack.


Pics!!! Pics!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:41 am 
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Links to generic pics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_SUB-2000#/media/File:Kel-Tec_SUB-2000.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_SUB-2000#/media/File:Kel-Tec_SUB-2000_folded.jpg

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:52 pm 
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Do you currently CCW?
If you do pick your bug out gun using your CCW as a starting point.
If you do not CCW and you legally can, go ahead and start. The practice will do you good.
The difference between a top of the line duty pistol and a decent mouse gun, or an out of date gun, in a bug out, is less than the skill you bring to the situation. That is; pack what you are familiar with. If you are an avid cowboy action shooter, I doubt you will suffer if you choose to carry a single action .45 colt revolver. If you are well practiced with it.

For example for years my preferred CCW was a .357 5 shot revolver. Mostly because I lived in a rural area and was more likely to use it to shoot at say a coyote trying to get into the chicken coop from a serious distance, than anything else. And it just fits me better. I like the flat shooting aspect of a .357, and the abundance of terminal power and the wide variety of ammo. So for me a slightly larger .357 makes sense. It's a round I am used to and I will probably already be carrying a reload or two for it.

So 1 box of mixed ammo, a couple of speed loaders and a good concealment holster round out what I pack for a bug out firearm. Although I do also accept the weight for an airline approved locked gun case. I see flying to someplace without my current problems as a reasonable alternative to plan for. If I can fly to visit relatives, I do not want to balk because I would have to give up my gun(s). The other thing the airline approved case does is it helps me remember that bug outs do not all involve zombies or red dawn or living of the land. They some times are better served with airline tickets and room service.
But I would still want to CCW.

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