There are No Rules in a Gunfight

The place to discuss adding firearms to your emergency preparedness plans.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

Post Reply
Peregrinator
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:42 am

There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Peregrinator » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 pm

Well, there is actually one golden rule: Have a gun.

To be honest, the best way to survive a gunfight is to be absent, but Murphy doesn't always let you plan that well.
Both SWMBO and I have CCW permits and carry small handguns in major calibers. She carries a Kahr PM9 and I carry a Kahr PM45, both with tritium sights. We practice often, a luxury afforded by a private range owned by close friends. These are reliable, very accurate, but short range firearms, not at all my first choice for a firefight. But, they are easily concealable, which means we can always have them with us. You can't ALWAYS have a long gun, and unless you are very lucky in your situation, you can't ALWAYS carry a full sized handgun.

If I could conceal a 12ga or a .308, I'd carry that, but I can't. I work, and I must wear "business appropriate attire", often than means well-fitting khaki's and a button down, tucked in, no jacket.
The Kahr fits. A Glock (love them, own several, including a single stack 36) is too bulky. I'm not a large man, at least not too large, 6', 190lbs and muscular rather than pudgy. That makes it tough to hide a big gun without printing.

Why do I care? Honestly, most people with whom I associate, would not care if they knew I was armed. In fact, I know many of them are also armed. But I actively avoid advertising the fact for a very good reason. If I were a nutjob intent on doing harm, I would shoot the armed guy first. No one knows I carry except wifey and the state, and she ain't telling.

Yes I know that the tinfoil hat crowd thinks the state will come and take my guns. They may. I'm not worried about that, I've made alternate plans. Let's avoid that bit of paranoia for the moment and stay on topic.

The point here, is that gun you have is far more effective than that handcannon home in the safe, or the shotgun outside in the trunk. Although some will argue that 230gr loads out of that Kahr feels like a cannon, it's not anywhere near as effective as just about any longarm, and yes, a full sized handgun would be better, but I can't conceal a full sized handgun effectively, in my situation.

So, here's my realistic, honest and practical suggestions for being prepared with a firearm for day-to-day life in current society.

Select a caliber, style and size:
1.) that is reliable and tested with several hundred rounds in your own hand.
2.) that you can shoot accurately
3.) that you have practiced with diligently (strong hand, weak hand, on the ground, moving, etc)
4.) that you can conceal properly (be realistic, use a mirror and your normal clothing, bend over and look for a bump, sit down and listen for a "clunk")

Then don't tell anyone that you carry it. Why paint a target on your arse?

I do not advocate standing your ground when you can retreat. (Actually, I don't ever advocate standing your ground, moving targets are much harder to hit. You do practice while moving, right?) I strongly suggest you actively avoid getting into a situation that would require you to shoot anyone. I even more strongly advise you to avoid a situation where people are shooting at you. Confrontations, in a disaster, are bad. Confrontations most likely mean injury. Most confrontations are a result of poor planning or poor tactics.

I have been shot at, and hit. I didn't recognize and avoid a situation quickly enough, my bad. If you are ever in a situation where you are facing an armed assailant, you will likely be shot. The faster you eliminate the threat the less shot you will be. That means lots of practice, mental preparation, study of tactics, and more practice. Approximately two-thirds of all gunshot wounds are survived with prompt medical care. Handgun wounds are more survivable than long gun wounds. In some disaster scenarios, medical care may be many hours away, or completely unavailable. Practice, study, practice, prepare, and most importantly...avoid. Rambo's don't live long outside the movies.

User avatar
emclean
* * * * *
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Fido
Zombieland
Location: NW Indiana

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by emclean » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:12 am

Peregrinator wrote:2.) that you can shoot accurately
just wondering what you consider accurate enough to carry to be.
I generally use the if I can keep the rounds on a standard sheet of paper at 25 yards. (due to the limits of the range I use, that is the shortest distance I can shoot. I am aware that it isn't a realistic distance for defensive shooting)

Peregrinator
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:42 am

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Peregrinator » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:24 am

emclean wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:2.) that you can shoot accurately
just wondering what you consider accurate enough to carry to be.
I generally use the if I can keep the rounds on a standard sheet of paper at 25 yards. (due to the limits of the range I use, that is the shortest distance I can shoot. I am aware that it isn't a realistic distance for defensive shooting)
Actually that's a damn good question, for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that POI is different at 7 yards than at 25 yards.
If you are holding inside an 8"x11" target at 25 yards with a small handgun, then your technique is certainly good enough to produce a reasonable group at 7 yards.

But, that's not really the issue, we are concerned with point of impact. Since you have drawn your weapon, you have already decided that deadly force is required, to preserve your life or the lives of others. You need to stop the threat quickly and reliably, as several studies have shown that at short distances you don't have time for more than a shot or two. You need to be able to place that shot where you want it, and it will be 1-2" be lower than point of aim, if your firearm is sighted for 25 yards.

If you research the trajectory vs line of sight of the ammunition you use, you will note that, due to the sight plane being above the barrel axis, your point of impact is actually below point of aim until the two meet at the sight-in distance. For most handgun sight-in distances, the projectile continues to climb above the point of aim, then begins to drop, again crossing the point of aim at at further distance.

Several factors come into play:
Distance from bore axis to sight line
sight in distance
bullet drop (a combination of velocity, weight, wind resistance, and other lesser factors)
recoil (heavier recoiling loads can raise the point of impact)

For a typical 9mm, this could translate into 2" low at the muzzle, 1" low at 10 yards, and zeroed at 25 yards. A typical 115gr 9mm projectile will drop back down through the sight line at about 100yards, giving you two zero's at 25 yards and 100 yards. Along this entire range you could expect about a +/-2" POI from POA. (point of impact, point of aim) If you are limited to a 25 yard practice range (a common problem) then you have to research the ballistics of the cartridge. Almost all common cartridges have graphs and charts publicly available on the Internet, that show point of impact vs sight line. A google image search of "9mm ballistics" will show you several examples of the above. Obviously a big, slow .45 ACP round will have very different ballistics than a fast and light 9mm.

If all of this is a bit too confusing, drop me a PM with the make and model of the firearm, and the exact rounds you intend to use. I can run it through a ballistics calculator and give you a pretty good approximation of point of impact at 7 yards with a 25 yard zero.

One thing you really need to consider, is if you are practicing with the same rounds that you intend to carry. Most people don't. People tend to practice with cheap "ball" ammo, then carry very different ammo for self defense. This is fine to practice technique, but you will almost certainly have a different POI for defense ammo vs the practice ammo. I'd suggest you at least put a magazine full of your carry ammo through the firearm on occasion to remind yourself of the differences in point of impact, felt recoil, amount of "flash" etc.

Best regards, and good luck.

User avatar
Asymetryczna
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:56 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: None

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Asymetryczna » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:48 am

Peregrinator wrote: Rambo's don't live long outside the movies.
This may be true. Still, one can honor their courage and sacrifice.

Arthur John Rambo
Panel W16, Line 126, Vietnam Memorial Wall

Silver Star Citation
Silver Star Awarded posthumously for actions during the Vietnam War The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress July 9, 1918 (amended by an act of July 25, 1963), takes pride in presenting the Silver Star (Posthumously) to Sergeant Arthur John Rambo, United States Army, for gallantry in action while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force on 26 November 1969 while serving as an artilleryman with the Howitzer Battery, 3rd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, in the Republic of Vietnam. On this date he was located at the squadron command post when it suddenly came under an intense mortar and ground attack from a North Vietnamese Army force. In the initial moments of the firefight, a rocket propelled grenade slammed into a cargo vehicle next to him, and the vehicle erupted n explosions and fire. Sergeant Rambo immediately began alerting the personnel in the area and directing them away from the area. He then crawled to the fiercely burning vehicle and attempted to drive it out of the area. Suddenly another grenade hit the vehicle and he was thrown to the ground. Undaunted, he crawled to a self-propelled howitzer and started the engine. As he began driving out of the area, the vehicle was hit by yet another rocket propelled grenade and he was fatally injured in the ensuing fire and explosions. Sergeant Rambo's heroic actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit and the United States Army. General Orders: Headquarters, II Field Force Vietnam, General Orders No. 4896 (December 23, 1969) Action Date: November 26, 1969 Service: Army Rank: Sergeant
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

Peregrinator
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:42 am

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Peregrinator » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:51 am

Asymetryczna wrote:
Peregrinator wrote: Rambo's don't live long outside the movies.
This may be true. Still, one can honor their courage and sacrifice.
Yeah, I do. Sometimes memorial day make my throat all tight, my eyes get red, and my nose starts to run, probably just allergies, right?
All gave some, some gave all.

User avatar
Asymetryczna
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:56 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: None

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Asymetryczna » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:23 pm

Yeah, it's allergies. If it is Memorial Day and I am home I make the trip to Robert E. Lee's old plantation grounds up north to walk amongst their memorial stones and the silent, white crosses. When I consider that Union generals fought to bury some of the first dead from Manassas in his wife's rose garden the inherent wiseass in me does a shrug of shoulders at the irony...
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 12449
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Bouncing in to Graceland

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Stercutus » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:10 pm

I have been shot at, and hit. I didn't recognize and avoid a situation quickly enough, my bad. If you are ever in a situation where you are facing an armed assailant, you will likely be shot.
Somebody shot you?

Please expound on that if you are able.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

User avatar
Neville
* * * *
Posts: 820
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:48 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Neville » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:50 pm

I'm going to disagree. There are rules for a gun fight.

If you know and follow those rules, you set yourself up to win the next fight - the one that involves the legal system. Shooting at your adversary (who is presumably shooting at you) at every available opportunity sounds like a good "winning" strategy. However, if there are innocent bystanders as your backdrop, if you miss your intended target you may hospitalize or terminate someone who didn't deserve it. You've increased your odds of surviving the gunfight, at the expense of having to spend some of those years of saved living behind bars. Holding your fire until you have a clean shot may place you at greater immediate risk but may help make the years of life you save, actually worth living. There are other rules such as if your opponent suddenly disengages and turns tail. Do you know if he's left the fight? Or just seeking better cover? Are you prepared to defend your decision to shoot a fleeing person in the back? Because that's how it will be portrayed in court.

Yes, there are rules. Bad guys don't know them, follow them, nor care about them. Good guys cannot afford to ignore them.

User avatar
KYZHunters
* * * * *
Posts: 1373
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:47 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by KYZHunters » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:12 pm

Is "sigable" a word? Sigworthy?
Neville wrote:
Yes, there are rules. Bad guys don't know them, follow them, nor care about them. Good guys cannot afford to ignore them.
crypto wrote:It's not that you were being "harsh" so much as a "douchebag".

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 16331
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by raptor » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:19 pm

Neville wrote:I'm going to disagree. There are rules for a gun fight.

If you know and follow those rules, you set yourself up to win the next fight - the one that involves the legal system. Shooting at your adversary (who is presumably shooting at you) at every available opportunity sounds like a good "winning" strategy. However, if there are innocent bystanders as your backdrop, if you miss your intended target you may hospitalize or terminate someone who didn't deserve it. You've increased your odds of surviving the gunfight, at the expense of having to spend some of those years of saved living behind bars. Holding your fire until you have a clean shot may place you at greater immediate risk but may help make the years of life you save, actually worth living. There are other rules such as if your opponent suddenly disengages and turns tail. Do you know if he's left the fight? Or just seeking better cover? Are you prepared to defend your decision to shoot a fleeing person in the back? Because that's how it will be portrayed in court.

Yes, there are rules. Bad guys don't know them, follow them, nor care about them. Good guys cannot afford to ignore them.


Well written well said.

roscoe
* * * * *
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:25 am
Location: NV

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by roscoe » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:30 am

Neville wrote:I'm going to disagree. There are rules for a gun fight.

If you know and follow those rules, you set yourself up to win the next fight - the one that involves the legal system. Shooting at your adversary (who is presumably shooting at you) at every available opportunity sounds like a good "winning" strategy. However, if there are innocent bystanders as your backdrop, if you miss your intended target you may hospitalize or terminate someone who didn't deserve it. You've increased your odds of surviving the gunfight, at the expense of having to spend some of those years of saved living behind bars. Holding your fire until you have a clean shot may place you at greater immediate risk but may help make the years of life you save, actually worth living. There are other rules such as if your opponent suddenly disengages and turns tail. Do you know if he's left the fight? Or just seeking better cover? Are you prepared to defend your decision to shoot a fleeing person in the back? Because that's how it will be portrayed in court.

Yes, there are rules. Bad guys don't know them, follow them, nor care about them. Good guys cannot afford to ignore them.
Word!

User avatar
flybynight
* * * * *
Posts: 2344
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by flybynight » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:53 pm

So...in a nutshell there are three rules in a gunfight.
(1) Have a gun, because without one you're not going to survive a gunfight. You're going to survive a attempted murder.

(2) Survive the gunfight ( as legally as possible )

(3) Have a great lawyer. Because no matter if you're the good guy or the bad, The victim or attacker. They are going to try and put you all in the same cage.
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 12449
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Bouncing in to Graceland

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by Stercutus » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:41 pm

Jeff and Mark's rules were written more from a military perspective and in a less litigious time.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

User avatar
JeeperCreeper
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Twilight... making zombies of our future generations
Location: Yo Momma's House

Re: There are No Rules in a Gunfight

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:41 pm

Stercutus wrote:Jeff and Mark's rules were written more from a military perspective and in a less litigious time.
I was thinking thinking something similar when I first read this post. Different rules, legally and ethically, for:

-Military
-Law Enforcement
-Civilian

But I like the way Neville summed it up.
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

Post Reply

Return to “Initial Firearms Prepping Q&A”