"It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Aikibiker » Fri May 31, 2013 11:14 am

DannusMaximus wrote: I'm not even sure how it got started.
The Supreme Court started it in Castle Rock vs Gonzales, and have consistantly ruled the same way since.

THink of it this way; police have a duty to protect and served, they do not have a legal requirement. You are right on one thing though: I don't know a single LEO that does not take their duty to protect very seriously. However even if they fail in that duty they will not face criminal charges or lose in civil court unless gross negligence is shown.
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Yes a Spartan hoplite trained for battle since he could walk, backed by 299 other Spartans, and lead by a military genius can hold off any number of zombies armed with spear, shield, and sword. However your couch-potato, asthmatic, gets in a car to drive to the corner store lazy ass can't. Deal with it.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri May 31, 2013 12:28 pm

Aikibiker wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote: I'm not even sure how it got started.
The Supreme Court started it in Castle Rock vs Gonzales, and have consistantly ruled the same way since.
I had never heard of that case, thanks for pointing it out to me.

While on-duty with the FD, it is my understanding that I have a legal duty to act, not just a professional duty to act (because I don't want to lose my job), in particular when it comes to providing aid for a medic run I've been dispatched to. I can't be sued just because a patient dies while under my care (unless I didn't follow protocol or did something grossly inappropriate), but I think I could be if I just gaffed of the run or strolled by a person bleeding to death while I was out for my daily jog around the hose house.

I'm not sure why the police wouldn't also have a legal duty to respond, but since it's a restraining order that kind of throws a wrench into the equation. Seriously, do you know how many times people will let their ex violate a restraining order because "well, he just wanted to see his kids" or "Yeah, but he just wanted to talk, and we've been getting along pretty good..." I shit you not, patrol officers in larger cities probably get these calls daily.

If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri May 31, 2013 1:38 pm

DannusMaximus wrote: If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/broo ... tg8LvHgzAI
He says he put his life on the line to stop a killer — and claims cops sat back and watched.

But city lawyers are arguing that the police had no legal duty to protect Joseph Lozito, the Long Island dad stabbed seven times trying to subdue madman Maksim Gelman — a courtroom maneuver the subway hero calls “disgraceful.”

“Under well-established law, the police are not liable for such incidents,” said city lawyer David Santoro. “That doesn't detract from the Police Department's public safety mission -- or the fact that New York is the safest big city in America."
That is not the only one, just the most public/most well remembered. Like any subset of people, some cops will be good and others will suck. All that the "no duty" judgements have said is that they cannot be held liable for sucking.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri May 31, 2013 2:00 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote: If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/broo ... tg8LvHgzAI
He says he put his life on the line to stop a killer — and claims cops sat back and watched.

But city lawyers are arguing that the police had no legal duty to protect Joseph Lozito, the Long Island dad stabbed seven times trying to subdue madman Maksim Gelman — a courtroom maneuver the subway hero calls “disgraceful.”

“Under well-established law, the police are not liable for such incidents,” said city lawyer David Santoro. “That doesn't detract from the Police Department's public safety mission -- or the fact that New York is the safest big city in America."
That is not the only one, just the most public/most well remembered. Like any subset of people, some cops will be good and others will suck. All that the "no duty" judgements have said is that they cannot be held liable for sucking.
That's pretty screwed up. A police officer's duty to serve isn't a suicide pact - - I wouldn't fault a lone officer for not diving in to stop 10 guys with AK's from robbing a bank (and in fact in lone officer situations where they are obviously outgunned I think the consensus is they should lay low and be good observers until more help arrives and they can adequately act), but I wonder what the officer's side of the story is for that particular example?

I remain convinced that your average flatfoot is going to strive mightily to protect those in harm's way and do everything in their power to prevent crime from happening if they possibly can. As you point out, though, some cops suck.
Holmes: "You have arms, I suppose?
Watson: "Yes, I thought it as well to take them."
Holmes: "Most certainly! Keep your revolver near you night and day, and never relax your precautions..."

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Aikibiker » Fri May 31, 2013 2:49 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
Aikibiker wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:

If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... 26631.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They weren't really updating facebook. Due to budget cuts in that county they only have police on duty Monday through friday from 8am-5pm.
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Yes a Spartan hoplite trained for battle since he could walk, backed by 299 other Spartans, and lead by a military genius can hold off any number of zombies armed with spear, shield, and sword. However your couch-potato, asthmatic, gets in a car to drive to the corner store lazy ass can't. Deal with it.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri May 31, 2013 3:01 pm

Aikibiker wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:
Aikibiker wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:

If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/2 ... 26631.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They weren't really updating facebook. Due to budget cuts in that county they only have police on duty Monday through friday from 8am-5pm.
Can't really fault the cops for not responding if none of them are on-shift, but it is kind of wretched that no local LE presence would be on duty in a given area. Public safety is kind of a basic responsibility of local guvmint, imo.

We're fortunate to have well funded and staffed police/fire/EMS in my area. I don't take it for granted, however.
Holmes: "You have arms, I suppose?
Watson: "Yes, I thought it as well to take them."
Holmes: "Most certainly! Keep your revolver near you night and day, and never relax your precautions..."

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by AnonEmouse » Fri May 31, 2013 5:15 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
AnonEmouse wrote: In closing , todays LEOs are *not* there to protect you , mostly nowadays they're there to pick up the pieces...
Not to bust on you AnonEmouse (the same line has been said before by others), but the line I quoted is tiresome and untrue. I'm not even sure how it got started. I don't know a single LEO, not a single one who views their job as just picking up the pieces. On the contrary, almost to a person they very much see their role as protecting people who may not be able to protect themselves, and nothing makes them happier than being able to intervene and stop a crime in progress or (better yet) before it begins. I suspect that's not just how "today's" officers feel, I imagine it's how they have felt throughout the ages.

Yes, if a crime has already been committed they pretty much just have to arrive and document the aftermath. Until they start equipping squad cars with flux capacitors that's just the way it will be. However, they then use that information and try their hardest to put away the person that did it, thereby preventing them from committing another crime on another victim. A person should absolutely be prepared to defend themselves and their loved ones, but not because your average LEO just doesn't give a shit one way or another about whether you live or die and are merely content to pick up the pieces.



Did I state that it's what *they* think? I don't believe I did. Unfortunately it is the current state of crime and law enforcement. And whether the cop on the street does their job on not has become immaterial in these days of sentencing guidelines , half time as compared to statutes and an increasingly lenient court and parole system.

Then we have budget cuts , staffing cuts etc , contributing to increased response times in a wide variety of agencies nationwide , hence the statement made.

And in some locales they won't even respond to non violent property crime , not by individual *officer* decision bit according to departmental dictates.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by jor-el » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:32 am

DannusMaximus wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote: If a dispatch came in that an armed person was kicking in somebody's front door and five-oh just sat in their squad cars updating their Facebook accounts instead of responding I can't imagine they wouldn't be held liable not responding.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/broo ... tg8LvHgzAI
He says he put his life on the line to stop a killer — and claims cops sat back and watched.

But city lawyers are arguing that the police had no legal duty to protect Joseph Lozito, the Long Island dad stabbed seven times trying to subdue madman Maksim Gelman — a courtroom maneuver the subway hero calls “disgraceful.”

“Under well-established law, the police are not liable for such incidents,” said city lawyer David Santoro. “That doesn't detract from the Police Department's public safety mission -- or the fact that New York is the safest big city in America."
That is not the only one, just the most public/most well remembered. Like any subset of people, some cops will be good and others will suck. All that the "no duty" judgements have said is that they cannot be held liable for sucking.
That's pretty screwed up. A police officer's duty to serve isn't a suicide pact - - I wouldn't fault a lone officer for not diving in to stop 10 guys with AK's from robbing a bank (and in fact in lone officer situations where they are obviously outgunned I think the consensus is they should lay low and be good observers until more help arrives and they can adequately act), but I wonder what the officer's side of the story is for that particular example?

I remain convinced that your average flatfoot is going to strive mightily to protect those in harm's way and do everything in their power to prevent crime from happening if they possibly can. As you point out, though, some cops suck.
You could have just asked me.

Read Warren VS District of Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._ ... f_Columbia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a practical basis, NYC transit cops have only one response to a knife. Pepper spray could not be used within a crowded subway car. There's no guarantee it would work on Gelman; odds are someone within that car would have had an allergic reaction and that shit WILL get everyone there. Average cops have minimal to no MMA or really good escrima skills and would have also been at risk of SPI. No one is going to take a shot at one of two guys mixing it up even if they knew for a fact one of them was wanted. When you take into account the average firearm skills of NYPD officers, it was probably better they not try to solve the problem ballistically.

No, I'm not thrilled with the outcome, but with the above decision as precedent, no officer would want to stick their neck out any further than their department would let them. And no person should put all of their personal security eggs into a basket guarded by any cop.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Raven_Thunder » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:35 am

Above all, practice your plan for desperate situations. Make sure your family knows escape routes/ what the plan is. And practice, practice, practice. Be honest with your faults and disadvantages.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Dabster » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:58 pm

With the recent events in Canada and New York, I thought it might be fun to necro this post.

Anyone doing anything different, planning to do anything different or thinking what can I do differently?
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Aikibiker » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:38 pm

My wife is now talking about getting her CCW permit and a gun she can carry all the time. I took the pastor of my church shooting and now he wants a Glock 19.

My wife is now more supportive of my general prepping efforts. She even helped me make up a list of things we need to do to expand our preps.
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Yes a Spartan hoplite trained for battle since he could walk, backed by 299 other Spartans, and lead by a military genius can hold off any number of zombies armed with spear, shield, and sword. However your couch-potato, asthmatic, gets in a car to drive to the corner store lazy ass can't. Deal with it.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:23 pm

We installed a home alarm that has contact sensors for the doors, and glass break sensors for all of the windows / sliding glass door. It also has a "duress" code in case we're ordered to disarm it, we can type in a specific code and it pretends to disarm while notifying the police that a home invasion is in progress.

Other than that, still have my home defense firearms and loud, stranger-aggressive dog.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:24 pm

Just remember: "Technology always advances before Tactics".

My LTC military history professor always preached it and it makes sense (kinda logical in a "no duh" sort of way). Look at every conflict in history, the tools used advanced well before the fighters knew how to wield them effectively (planes and tanks in ww1, smart bombs, etc etc). This is the same way... There are cazy stuff that people can get and before you know it, that double barrel shotty is not the most effective HD tool anymore and you need something advanced.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:21 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:Just remember: "Technology always advances before Tactics".

My LTC military history professor always preached it and it makes sense (kinda logical in a "no duh" sort of way). Look at every conflict in history, the tools used advanced well before the fighters knew how to wield them effectively (planes and tanks in ww1, smart bombs, etc etc). This is the same way... There are cazy stuff that people can get and before you know it, that double barrel shotty is not the most effective HD tool anymore and you need something advanced.
That's half right. Tactics call for technological upgrades which allow tactics to be enhanced which calls for updates to better fit the enhanced tactics...

Or, technology allows for a new tactical approach, which calls for technological upgrades, which allows more refined tactics, which highlight weaknesses in the current tech...
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:03 am

I guess it will be the ISIs outreach wakadoodles instead of the Taliban.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/17 ... n-us-soil/
In one example cited in the bulletin, a British jihadist encouraged radicals still living in the West to use Facebook and LinkedIn to find and target soldiers.

"You could literally search for soldiers, find their town, photos of them, look for address in Yellowbook or something," the tweet read. "Then show up and slaughter them.”
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/24/ax ... onnection/
"America's military is strong abroad, but they have never faced an internal mass revolt,” Thompson posted on the social media site. “They are weaker at home. We are scattered and decentralized, we can use this as an advantage. They are centralized and strong, which can be exploited as a weakness. Think of a swarm of bees (negroes) that surround and attack an elephant (America) to death."

The suspect also called for guerilla warfare.

"Helicopters, big military will be useless on their own soil,” another post read. “They will not be able to defeat our people if we use guerilla warfare. Attack their weak flanks ... If you get wounded who cares. If you die who cares. Eventually they will surrender and then the war will be over."

Thompson was a "very educated" proponent of "black power" and a graduate of the College of New Rochelle in Harlem, one classmate who asked not to be identified told the Post.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Boondock » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:04 am

In one example cited in the bulletin, a British jihadist encouraged radicals still living in the West to use Facebook and LinkedIn to find and target soldiers.
Yup. A military friend of ours has a daughter in college out of state. She recently received a friend request on Facebook from what looked like a possible extremist site. It was reported.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Aikibiker » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:10 pm

One reason why my facebook does not contain any pics or info about th estuff I have done overseas. I think my job history says "Will work for food."
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Yes a Spartan hoplite trained for battle since he could walk, backed by 299 other Spartans, and lead by a military genius can hold off any number of zombies armed with spear, shield, and sword. However your couch-potato, asthmatic, gets in a car to drive to the corner store lazy ass can't. Deal with it.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by jor-el » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:27 pm

Stercutus wrote:I guess it will be the ISIs outreach wakadoodles instead of the Taliban.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/17 ... n-us-soil/
In one example cited in the bulletin, a British jihadist encouraged radicals still living in the West to use Facebook and LinkedIn to find and target soldiers.

"You could literally search for soldiers, find their town, photos of them, look for address in Yellowbook or something," the tweet read. "Then show up and slaughter them.”
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/24/ax ... onnection/
"America's military is strong abroad, but they have never faced an internal mass revolt,” Thompson posted on the social media site. “They are weaker at home. We are scattered and decentralized, we can use this as an advantage. They are centralized and strong, which can be exploited as a weakness. Think of a swarm of bees (negroes) that surround and attack an elephant (America) to death."

The suspect also called for guerilla warfare.

"Helicopters, big military will be useless on their own soil,” another post read. “They will not be able to defeat our people if we use guerilla warfare. Attack their weak flanks ... If you get wounded who cares. If you die who cares. Eventually they will surrender and then the war will be over."

Thompson was a "very educated" proponent of "black power" and a graduate of the College of New Rochelle in Harlem, one classmate who asked not to be identified told the Post.
Stercutus, I see you have PMs turned off. Why is that?

I find it vaguely amusing these creatures perceive America as old and weak.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Aikibiker » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:04 pm

So hachet boy was "highly educated"? Between this and the occutards trying to play street soldier with the New Black Panther Party, I wonder if we are starting to see a return of the college revolutionary/terrorist from circa 1970.
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Yes a Spartan hoplite trained for battle since he could walk, backed by 299 other Spartans, and lead by a military genius can hold off any number of zombies armed with spear, shield, and sword. However your couch-potato, asthmatic, gets in a car to drive to the corner store lazy ass can't. Deal with it.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:55 pm

I find it vaguely amusing these creatures perceive America as old and weak.
The USA is old. It has one of the oldest surviving systems of government in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... government

Most of the countries that are older are inconsequential.

Weak makes me snicker a bit. And of course:

Code: Select all

America's military is strong abroad, but they have never faced an internal mass revolt
The irony of that being written by axe man is pretty damn strong.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Dioxin » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:25 am

I find it vaguely amusing these creatures perceive America as old and weak.
Actually I think a better term of phrase would be complacent.

British Army Personel would check under their vehicles everytime the returned to them, checking for signs of tampering or Car Bombs. Every time they entered a Military Facility the gate guards would check for the same. We have the Irish/English relationships and the IRA to thank for that.

Check the history, plenty of very successful attacks from the IRA, how would the US Military cope with that?

The British had to change the mindset of every soldier to ensure they mitigate the risk, there were still successful attacks against them.

Its the nature of this style of warfare thats difficult.

An army wears a Uniform, a terrorist doesnt.

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by 91Eunozs » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:14 pm

Meant to post this a couple weeks ago but have been jumping through my ass preparing for retirement in less than 4 weeks, trying to find a post .mil job (interview w/Amazon in the next week or two) and, ya know, doing my friggin' job!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/21/us/al-sha ... l-attacks/

Unfortunately I can't speak to details but one could surmise there's more to the story...A LOT more to this story.

Edit: ...that has nothing to do w/malls! </Gecko45>. :lol:

Edit: more

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... rrest.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/gov ... rn-border/

More later as stuff hits the press... BTW, I for one don't mind (most of) the illegal South American and Mexican immigrants coming in...these folks comin' over w/ill intent aren't turning themselves in...just sayin'.
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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:51 am

MaconCJ7 wrote:
iron_angel wrote:More on the firearms direction - I wonder if there are any stats about what kind of armor gangbangers tend to be using? I don't expect too many are wearing armor that can defeat rifles, but is there any evidence one way or the other? This could make a pretty strong argument against shotguns or PCCs, and (less likely) could make a case in favor of 6.8SPC or 7.62NATO, or in the eternal AR ammo debate. (Does M855 really do any better against body armor?)
I think it's safe to assume they have IIIa or IV level body armors. They're not hard to come by, and very cheap when stolen. Not to mention stuff that's "lost" by soldiers, gang banger or otherwise. Pistol plates are even more common, and easier to conceal. Probably a very high likelihood of that, considering their obvious enemy is the police, whom still use pistols as primary.

I like this topic, in that it brings to conversation a little talked about threat. Home invasions are on the rise, and everyone is a target. Swift violent action is the key to their success. Anything you can do to impede their forward progress while increasing your response time is going to increase your survivability factor. Anything that gives you a chance to take a defensive posture while calling in the authorities is a good thing. Hardened interior doors, fortified exterior points of entry, immediate available comms and defensive tools.
With this in mind, should my home defense pistol be a 5.7x28mm Five Seven, rather than a 9mm? EDIT: Or, perhaps more practically, train on shooting around body armor with the 9mm?
"When it comes to justifiable use of deadly force, you should seek to avoid confrontation, unless you have no choice and your life is on the line. This is easier to say than to do because it requires that you be calm and peace-loving throughout your life, but ready to use deadly force at any moment."

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Re: "It's not like the Taliban are coming to my door"

Post by Rev » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:59 pm

What is the normal reaction to being shot three times in the chest with 9mms while wearing armor?
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