Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

The place to discuss adding firearms to your emergency preparedness plans.

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Umbrella Corp
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Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Umbrella Corp » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:54 pm

Other than a few hippies here in Michigan... I think I'm the only guy that doesn't own a firearm. Don't get me wrong I want to... But how? The whole field of it is intimidating as hell. Everyone up here hunts and what not and is packing and has a farm and they shoot just for fun. I keep trying to formulate a plan on how to buy em, anything for that matter but websites are strewn with ads and media crap and I can't seem to get started.

So lets say today (metaphorically) I wanted to be armed in order to better protect my family if anything happens. How would I start? I guess my question is more along the lines of do i need a licenses to buy em? Do i stroll into Cabellas or dicks and slap my money on the counter and say that one and that's it? And whats the timeline for stuff like this? Background checks? And about that slapping the money down part... can i make payments? doubt wife would be okay with me allotting that much money at once. Sorry this is such a blab fest just so many question. Yea where do you buy yours? what kind of license do i need to have a case with ammo and everything in my car? I eventually like the idea of carrying .22 ammo. Those MP5SDs that use .22s look choice. Can you buy automatic weapons like i see all over youtube or is that stuff like taboo now? I eventually want to start buying and making ammo... but whats the point if I'm going to be using a slingshot to send them flying if i cant find out how to get a firearm.

I know there are a lot of reposts of subjects, if someone already posted this I guess just link me in the right direction. Thanks for the tips and tricks otherwise and any help for that matter.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by raxar » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:29 pm

First off welcome to the wonderful world of firearms, a shallow plastic money trench where pimps and thieves run free and good men die like dogs (there is also a negative side).

Your best bet for finding info about laws in your state would be to find a local forum http://www.migunowners.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was the first to pop up on a google search for me. I'm sure someone can direct you to a ZS michigan chapter if there is one.

Being from PA I have no idea what the laws in your state are, so my advice is only an overview of how it generally works in most parts of the country.

In order to buy a gun you just need to go to a place that sells them, find one you like, fill out a background check form and the shop will call the National instant check system (NICS). If you get approval to purchase (meaning you're not a felon or otherwise prohibited) you will then pay for the gun/tax/nics fee and walk out with it.

A good shop will be happy to help you out as a first time buyer and instruct you on how to operate the firearm (safety, reloading, preparing to fire etc). I understand this is a pretty intimidating situation to be in for a first timer, if you know anyone who is experienced with firearms you could ask them for some guidance. Youtube can also be a good resource (or full of misinformation, so you have to be careful) I would recommend these guys http://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a caveat here. As I said above the gun business can be a pretty rough place, it's very easy to be ripped off by crooks. This is why it's a good idea to check out a lot of different places before you make a purchase. Places like Gander Mountain and Cabela's generally sell stuff higher than you can get it for elsewhere, and the people behind the counter there probably aren't as educated as people in a smaller shop, but you're unlikely to be straight up ripped off there. Walmart is a good place to buy guns provided you know what you're looking for beforehand, as they have the best prices, but the least knowledgeable salesmen. You would also be smart to ask on here or another gun forum about anything you plan to buy before you get it.

Another thing to look into is to see if the NRA or a local sportsman's club offers a gun safety class. Since you are starting out with no experience I would highly suggest getting some professional training before buying. You're also going to need somewhere to shoot the thing once it's bought, so you should look around to see what ranges are around you, unless you have private land you can shoot on.
...although my tactical get up is a tarzan loin cloth and giant lolly pop
Cobray's website wrote:Remember The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.
Cobray firearms, your #1 source for irony.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Umbrella Corp » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:12 pm

Thanks for the long response I appreciate it. I am part of ZS:23 in Michigan but havn't met with the guys yet as the State of Michigan has me by the bawls work wize and am hoping to get out there sometime for their next get together at the Tap Room. So it sounds pretty much like go in and buy, not too bad! then in terms of me carrying it in the car, CCW? or to the range?

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by skelco » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:50 pm

Hooking up with some ZS members for a range day would be a good way to get a taste of some different guns (if they are willing to allow you to shoot em). The big step is to get some training, start off with a basic pistol or rifle course from a certified instructor and go from there.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by raxar » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Umbrella Corp wrote:Thanks for the long response I appreciate it. I am part of ZS:23 in Michigan but havn't met with the guys yet as the State of Michigan has me by the bawls work wize and am hoping to get out there sometime for their next get together at the Tap Room. So it sounds pretty much like go in and buy, not too bad! then in terms of me carrying it in the car, CCW? or to the range?

here's a link to your states CCW laws http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-12 ... --,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you go to a gun shop they will probably be able to explain what the laws are in your state
...although my tactical get up is a tarzan loin cloth and giant lolly pop
Cobray's website wrote:Remember The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.
Cobray firearms, your #1 source for irony.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Kutter_0311 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:16 pm

As mentioned above, some gun counters will have knowledgeable staff. Most will not, except for the 'how do I sell this guy something' area. Salesmen aren't my favorite people.

I'll let your local ZS crew guide you through the MI requirements, WI is pretty simple. With luck, they can let you shoot their stuff before you try to go buy anything.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Blacksheep » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:27 pm

where you you live in michigan?..


I am in dearborn heights... and work with firearms.. you should come to see me 8-)
if your anywhere nearby, I invite you to send me a pm and I will send you information on the store I work at,
I don't get commission :( , so nothing like that...

I can explain, how you go about getting licensed for conceal carry,... as well as open carry...
I never fit in. That's my role in life, to be the outcast.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Umbrella Corp » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:19 pm

Rebel Pariah wrote:where you you live in michigan?..


I am in dearborn heights... and work with firearms.. you should come to see me
if your anywhere nearby, I invite you to send me a pm and I will send you information on the store I work at,
I don't get commission , so nothing like that...

I can explain, how you go about getting licensed for conceal carry,... as well as open carry...
:clap:
Thats awesome, yea I live in Ypsi where the rest of the crew roam (although i havnt met em yet :rofl: ) ur like 30-40 mins out deffinitly making that trip and soon, i have the next 4 days off but I want my wife to come with as I want her to get involved too (reluctantly at first I'm sure till she finds her little perfect pink shooter! :awesome: ) Anywho, DEC 30th or 31st would rock because she'd be able to tag along for the fun. if not let me know and we can plan something else, added a lot of the ZSers on facebook not sure if i got urs yet. (pm sent) (sorry for florida number havnt changed it for like 10 years lolz) shoot me a text if you can! There a gun range there too? that i might rent one similar to what feels right and squeeze off a few?
:clap:
Last edited by Umbrella Corp on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Blacksheep » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:24 am

Umbrella corp, Pm sent... check your inbox
sent you my Fb contact details, will get things planned out there
I never fit in. That's my role in life, to be the outcast.

ATEi

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Aceman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:38 pm

SOme super-quick answers:

#1 Just walk intro Dick's and ask how you do it. They will know the important (and legal) parts.

#2 Before entering into this remember; You are talking about potentially taking another's life to save you/your family. Also, remember, the tool for this is equally capable of killing you if it is not treated properly with respect.

#3 To become merely COMPETENT to defend yourself successfully, will take thousands of rounds of practice. This will cost far more than the actually gun.
- Glock 19 9mm used; $500, 2000 rounds of 9mm $500.

So here we go! Opinions will vary, and this is mine.

#1 Ultimate home defender weapon is a 12g pump shotgun. My philosophy/experience (which is shooting since I was 5 - now 45).
- Long gun = more inherent accuracy
- You have to aim, but point of impact is forgiving. There will be some spread (maybe only a few inches at indoor distances, but far better than pistol round)
- You will be more accurate per round of firing practice than any other weapon
- Extremely reliable
- Various types of ammunition make it useful for many purposes - hunting, sporting clays, home defense, etc...
- Cheap, meaning more $$$ for ammo for practice

Personal suggestion; A plain and simple wood stocked Mossberg Field/Security combo. For about $400 you can get a shotgun with two barrels. One short barrel for indoor use / home defense at about 18" long, and another about 28" long with chokes (things that constrict the end of the barrel = tighter shot patterns) that will allow you to hunt everything from rabbits to geese, if you use the right ammo, as well as practice sporting clays. Fun and useful SD practice.

The pump shotgun is simply the most flexible gun out there. 18" barrel and 00 low recoil buck for indoors, Slugs for deer, #8 shot for sporting clays, #7 for rabbits, #4 for turkeys, whatever...It is the one gun to have if you are only having one. It is also the #1 man-stopper weapon out there. Contact with 9 .32 caliber pellets seems to significantly disrupt your next thought.

For any indoor home defense gun, I always recommend a simple tac light.

#2 While the GSG MP5 looks super cool, maybe not the most practical choice. Think Ruger 10/22. or SMith & Wesson M&P 15-22 for cool and practical. Classic for all time. Small, fun, lightweight, and the ammo is super cheap. $20 for 500 rounds and you could easily fit them in your pants pocket. Not the best SD weapon (but could be used), yet it is amazingly fun, super cheap to shoot, and teaches basic marksmanship. Also handy for small game - squirrels, rabbits, rats, etc.

#3 Handgun of your choice. Ruger GP100, Taurus .357, both in 4" barrel. Or your choice of a Glock 19, Sprinfield XD9mm, or a SMith &Wesson M&P9. Whatever floats your boat. The bonus of a handgun is that it can be concealed (please refer to your local laws and regulations...) and is able to be used one handed (although I rarely do). During any serious SHTF, if you must go out, concealability will rule. Downside is this is the most difficult to get to be able to use well.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by jor-el » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:22 pm

Here's a different opinion.

I would only go to a Dick's as a very last resort for so many reasons...

Do NOT buy a firearm first. Get that Gun Safety course under your belt to start with. Try out rifles, pistols and shotguns through your chapter brothers. I would even go so far as to find a shooting school. Having a proper instructor can coach you through and not develop bad habits. Many locales offer a CCW course as mandatory. They will teach you what you need to know regarding legality and restrictions of self defense with firearms.

From a S+T POV, a defensive rifle to my mind makes a little more sense. Unfortunate that you pick now to shop for one. None of the semiautos even 10/22s are reasonable in price, nor the mags. Rao, it's possible these may NEVER be available to you, pending legislation.

Not such a fan of the pump shotgun.
1) Don't know your personal health situation. You kind of need two hands to operate one. Recoil to the shoulder will be substantial, though manageable via training and technology.
2) Liability wise, you are launching typically 9 .33 inch pellets in a spread that's fairly random. If you get a chance, try firing a candidate pump on a pattern board at 25 and 40-50 yards. Then put yourself on the resulting pattern. You own every pellet that comes out of your weapon. Yes, this is city experience and why there are very few shotguns on patrol here.
3) Price a box of 5 Remington 00 buckshot rounds. Cheap they are not.
On the plus side, no problem with availability. Yet.

Normally, I point new people towards revolvers for their simple manual of arms. Limp-wristing them doesn't affect their reliability. Just aim, squeeze, and reload. If you don't like the grip, you can change it.
Autos I'll defer as they are potentially also subject to a possible ban at this time.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by yossarian » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:10 am

PM or meet face to face with Trebor. Not sure if he's in your chapter but he is from Michigan and very knowledgeable.


A link to some of his articles
http://www.examiner.com/firearms-in-detroit/rob-reed
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Blacksheep » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:15 am

talking to the OP,

sounds like he wants a S&W M&P 15-22,

for the purpose of FUN,
I have explained that the .22lr is better than nothing, but that's about it when it comes to HD
probably going to go shoot with the OP soon, try to rent one, I will try to see if I can't steer him back towards his original idea of a glock 19 8-)

probably take my mossberg... see if maybe I can steer him towards a pump gun,
I never fit in. That's my role in life, to be the outcast.

ATEi

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Tactical_Havik » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:19 am

S&W MP15 sport is around 650... or was. how much is a 22lr BCG going for now? he can get use to the gun, then swap out the BCG and go with a "bigger" round. MP22 is around 500 i believe, but is a dedicated 22. At the same time in the home defense side of things, i'd rather be missed by a 50AE then hit with a 22LR.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Blacksheep » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:02 am

the bigger issue tactical_havik is that *IF* somebody has an S&W-15 IN-STOCK, its certainly going for more than a grand right now,
the tactical 22's are starting to go now that the real ar-15's have pretty much dried up
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Tactical_Havik » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:03 pm

wow... didn't think they would jack the price of those up THAT far... between the sport and 22 i'll be on the lookout incase i come across something... i have a store out in VA you can call. i'll pm you the number to them. maybe they can send one to a FFL in your are.
"If you can't get it done with 10 rounds of 45 you dont need more ammo you need air support."
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by raxar » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:22 pm

Tactical_Havik wrote:wow... didn't think they would jack the price of those up THAT far... between the sport and 22 i'll be on the lookout incase i come across something... i have a store out in VA you can call. i'll pm you the number to them. maybe they can send one to a FFL in your are.

they're getting $1200 for sports on gunbroker
...although my tactical get up is a tarzan loin cloth and giant lolly pop
Cobray's website wrote:Remember The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.
Cobray firearms, your #1 source for irony.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Umbrella Corp » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:31 pm

Crap I was trying to save up for one but it looks like i gotta resort back to plastiques... :rofl: alright gentlemen where we headed with this card to buy he cheapest (priced) swmp15. Let me know.

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Trebor » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:35 am

yossarian wrote:PM or meet face to face with Trebor. Not sure if he's in your chapter but he is from Michigan and very knowledgeable.


A link to some of his articles
http://www.examiner.com/firearms-in-detroit/rob-reed
Yeah, feel free to PM me or e-mail me. I'm in the Novi area, but we could meet at a range half way between us in Southfield or Westland.

I'm trebor1415 at hotmail Tell me who you are in the message so i know how I know you.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Tactical_Havik » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:29 pm

what are the price ranges for AKs? about the same? be it 47 or 74?
"If you can't get it done with 10 rounds of 45 you dont need more ammo you need air support."
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Trebor » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:31 pm

Tactical_Havik wrote:what are the price ranges for AKs? about the same? be it 47 or 74?
These days? Good luck finding either one and pricing is changing by the day.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Aikibiker » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:15 pm

I will third or fourth the training thing. I wish I had started out with some good training under my belt. Even basic marksmanship I had to learn on my own spending thousands of rounds and plenty of dollars to do so.

I can also recommend the M&P 15-22 I just got one (at pre-panic prices) a couple weeks ago. They are lots of fun, my last range trip was the first time taking out the 15-22 and I had a blast. S&W seems to be just finishing or in the middle of a production run on them right now, so they are still somewhat available, magazines seem like another story unfortunately get them when you see them.

Allthough it does look like S&W is pushing to get more 5.56mm AR's made and out to retailers and Magpul has stopped production of everything except black 30 round PMAGs which are making their way out onto the market in enough quantity to be findable if you look hard enough. I don't care for the "sport" model myself, but these days you better take what you can get. You can always add a milspec upper onto a sport model receiver later. Whether you get a .22 or 5.56mm AR first is up to you and your wallet.

Listen to Rebel Pariah on the Glock 19. I carried one for a while at work, they are very nice. Light, accurate, and easy to conceal.
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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by Umbrella Corp » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:05 pm

saw an swmp15 at duhnams near me and it was 649 :( checked some other places like dicks and all I saw there was a ruger10/22 takedown for like 349 I believe. that duhnams had the mp5sd522 for 349 any ideas on that. went to REI for the first time omg ive been missing out!!!! this place has like everything ive ever wanted... prices are a little high but neat to see the actual stuff and mess around with it, see high end stuff and lowend items yo what what to look for when at thrift stores. man I wanna go camping bad now....

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Re: Taking The Next Step In Family Protection...

Post by raxar » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:35 pm

Tactical_Havik wrote:what are the price ranges for AKs? about the same? be it 47 or 74?
they seem to be running somewhere between $900-$1400 for the cheap romanian 47's (wasr-10's on the low end, sar's on the high end) I'd imagine the 5.45's are around there if they're a century or a romanian, arsenals will naturally be more. The problem with 5.45's is ammo and mags, 74 mags were expensive before this all started, I'd imagine you're purely at the mercy of the secondary market for them now. Aim got a shipment of ammo in friday and it sold out in hours.
...although my tactical get up is a tarzan loin cloth and giant lolly pop
Cobray's website wrote:Remember The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.
Cobray firearms, your #1 source for irony.

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