All purpose NFA questions thread

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Mall Ninja » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:08 am

Brotherbadger wrote:Ugh, after looking at a 300 blackout upper and seeing how awesome it would be to use for hunting, i want an SBR. Time to get a form 1 going for my lower. Is the wait still over 6 months?
There are reports of people doing an eform form-1 and getting their stamp back in 30 days or less.

nfa tracker can give you an idea of the process times for your area.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by AS556 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:21 pm

Not NFA per se, but a quick question about shorty AR barrels.

What do you guys prefer for home defense ammo out of an 11.5"? I'd like it to frag/expand out to 100m but it needs to at least work inside 25m. What I have access to locally that I can afford is PPU 75gr and 69gr BTHP, but am open to suggestions. I did read that 64gr Gold Dot was designed to expand out to 200m from that bbl length, but don't know how true that is.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:22 am

So I've decided I'm going to downgrade my barrel from a rra r4 medium heavy carbine
To a Daniel defense lightweight middy

I'm also leaning towards chopping to 14.5 (or ordering it, if that's a thing)
I understand that I need make sure whatever hider/comp/break I add , adds up to 16 inches
I also understand that it needs to be "permanently" attached

I know you can "blind pin" (think that's right)
I've also heard of I think "silver soldering" it on... And there was some listed temp

But I have heard some many definitions of permanent, from needing tools to welded
And even then welded apparently doesn't always mean welded...

I don't know what comp or brake I want yet, I'm still running an a2 so I need to experiment
(Fwiw, I want less flip and recoil, I don't care much about flash... )
(Noise? Quiet is nice, but mostly I don't wanna be that asshole running a big ass horizontal brake next to some dude on the line)

Here's the issue, I am thinking 2-3 years down the line I might want to get a 556 can
Probably something that uses a qd system,
But I don't know what yet... And with the market always changing, something awesome could come out later, and they use a different proprietary qd

Is there method I can attach a comp on my barrel now, that qualifies as permanent,
That would allow me to change to a different attachment later?

I would rather not have to buy an entire new barrel later, just because of the qd
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:15 am

The ATF handles topics of "permanently attached" much like they do with firearms design approvals and what constituted "destroyed" - they just test and think about it and change their mind at-will, if they don't think their approved design/process is sufficient for the spirit/intent of the law. Currently "permanently attached" is rather clearly defined and "industry standard" does not really deviate in any way. That is to say, if you deviate, you'll be sticking out like a sore thumb and won't have a leg to stand on.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-2.pdf

Section 2.1.3 reads:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.
A blind-pin that interferes with the threads of the barrel, with a weld covering it up, is the most common, I believe. It's also the least amount of energy imparted to the barrel post-manufacturing, as well as being quite easy and quick to do, and clean up after the fact. It is also the most easily reversed in case you wish to have a gunsmith install a different muzzle brake.

ETA: Going from an RRA heavy to a DD lite is an upgrade, not a downgrade. :clownshoes: You can easily source 14.5" barrels with a permanently attached MD. Bravo Company comes to mind immediately, but there are others I'm sure.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:22 pm

Thanks for the input

So a blind pin is removable buy a smith, good

Presumably you just drill the pin out,

I watched some guy on YouTube trying to take off a pinned muzzle device,
The problem he ran into was, the pin was welded, and then cleaned up so well he had no idea where the pin was

I wasn't sure if the name "blind" pin, required the pins location to be obscured
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:23 pm

Rebel Pariah wrote: I wasn't sure if the name "blind" pin, required the pins location to be obscured
It does not.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:22 pm

So here's a follow up question,
I'm on board to do a pin now

I saw they sell a 14.5 inch version of the barrel I want
Can I buy this? Or is that sbr constructive possession
I intend to have it pinned as soon as I get it in
So "real world" I don't see issue, I'll likely have it for no more than 3 days
But I can see how it would fall under constructive possession since I already own an ar

Obviously the barrel isn't going to get installed until after pinning
Not sure if that matters

Buying a 16 and having it cut and threaded, makes more sense LEGALLY
But buying the 14.5 and just pinning it in seems to make more common sense
I'm sure cutting and threading isn't going to cost me the same as just pinning
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:37 pm

The only case I'm aware of (US v Kent) is a case where a complete <16" barreled upper was in the possession of someone being charged with other crimes including illegal machine gun possession, knowingly selling stolen guns, and trafficking. Evidence provided was that there was no other usage for that upper than to put it on his already-possessed rifle lower. The evidence included details about the fact that there were sights, a scope with batteries in it, it's own BCG and charging handle, a sling on the upper ready to attach to a lower, and all other details that make the upper function fully and ready-to-go. The defense was that he wanted to separate it and part it out. The prosecution didn't buy it because of the 'readiness' of the upper and that there were no other receivers for ARs that he could have used it with. This and another case about Uzis (iirc) are what make up the common idea of "constructive possession" which is still rather vague.

I'm unaware of anyone being charged over possession of a barrel alone. Do you have any other? At all? A single stripped lower or a complete non-rifle lower pretty much voids the constructive possession idea.

Regardless, if you by the barrel, see if you can have it shipped to the gunsmith who'll do the work. Personally, I'm not going to expect that as soon as I buy a 14.5" barrel, that the Black Booted Federalis will come stomping in my door wanting to inspect my gun safe and shoot my dogs. I don't /know/ that it's illegal to possess a bare extra barrel that's <16" if you only have a rifle. Maybe someone else does.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this instance though. Just don't have the barrel, and your rifle, in your possession if you plan to go raping, murdering, illegally trafficking in guns, racketeering, gang banging, or any other violent felonies. That's really about the only time you hear about these major cases defining interpretations of gun laws. They just stack that shit on top of the other major things as an extra 'fuck you' it seems.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:52 pm

I have a couple odds and ends, mostly stock parts that have been taken off, no reciever or uppers

I don't think I have enough to make the argument I'm building a second rifle

I can't figure out if is good or bad for my situation
I never fit in. That's my role in life, to be the outcast.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:25 am

I wouldn't waste too many brain cells over it. They're pretty simple options that give no real inconvenience to you either way. If you have some level of uneasiness in having the barrel yourself, just have it shipped to your gunsmith who'll be doing the work. I'm relatively certain that the gunsmith won't mind. It was not an uncommon thing to happen at the shop I used to do work for. Some would just ask that we bought the barrel ourselves and sold it as a complete thing to them just to make it easier on them, and the ordering more simple.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Dave_M » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:31 pm

Seems like a decent reason to bump this thread (cross posted from Firearms chat)

Another option for those with sealed Gemtech cans
http://www.recoilweb.com/review-new-gem ... 54797.html

Way back, before the first upgrade program, there were guys that would, 'jailbreak' their Outbacks by soaking them in Ed's Red or similar and then baking them at high temperature (I don't recall the exact procedure because I never did it). This upgrade is a helluva lot better than making the end cap removable.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by kbilly84 » Sat May 23, 2015 11:28 am

http://www.silencershop.com/silencer-shop-direct

MN's now getting Cans viewtopic.php?f=107&t=116275 now.

Anyone ever heard of this, or know if it's as good as it sounds? I really know very little about the process, so apologies for sounding like a noob.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat May 23, 2015 12:39 pm

SilencersShop is like the go-to for well-priced cans online
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by kbilly84 » Sat May 23, 2015 12:49 pm

How about that "Direct thing", where they apparently handle all the NFA papers and such? Any idea if that's worthwhile?


Also, how does ordering online work, vs. finding in a store? Is it a lot like ordering a lower, but I have to wait till I have the stamp to go get it from the FFL? I don't think there are many class III's in the state... not that I'm aware of, anyway.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat May 23, 2015 1:37 pm

kbilly84 wrote:Also, how does ordering online work, vs. finding in a store? Is it a lot like ordering a lower, but I have to wait till I have the stamp to go get it from the FFL? I don't think there are many class III's in the state... not that I'm aware of, anyway.
You order it to your local Class III, and they have to do a Form 3 for dealer to dealer transfer. Once that goes through, Silencer Co ships it to your FFL. After it arrives, you finish your Form 4s, mail them to your CLEO and ATF, and wait.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by 91Eunozs » Sat May 23, 2015 1:48 pm

kbilly84 wrote:How about that "Direct thing", where they apparently handle all the NFA papers and such? Any idea if that's worthwhile?


Also, how does ordering online work, vs. finding in a store? Is it a lot like ordering a lower, but I have to wait till I have the stamp to go get it from the FFL? I don't think there are many class III's in the state... not that I'm aware of, anyway.

I bought my three from a local class 3 dealer when they had a blowout sale on AAC products... Next batch will be ordered from these guys: http://www.silencershop.com

They often have sales and often have prices too low to publish.

Edit: And they sell to out of state customers (where legal of course). Give them a call Monday...good folks. no affiliation, etc...
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by kbilly84 » Tue May 26, 2015 10:46 am

Next question... I just learned that I get free legal assistance as one of my benefits at work. Haven't looked too far into it yet, but on the surface it looks like it may include creating trusts.

So... for those that have an NFA trust, what's the difference between that and a regular trust? i.e. what questions do I need to ask a lawyer to make sure I'm getting the right kind of trust? I'd really hate to go thru all the work and have it all negated and have my dog get shot just because I got a trust that was only valid for snow globes without realizing it.

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue May 26, 2015 10:53 am

kbilly84 wrote:Next question... I just learned that I get free legal assistance as one of my benefits at work. Haven't looked too far into it yet, but on the surface it looks like it may include creating trusts.

So... for those that have an NFA trust, what's the difference between that and a regular trust? i.e. what questions do I need to ask a lawyer to make sure I'm getting the right kind of trust? I'd really hate to go thru all the work and have it all negated and have my dog get shot just because I got a trust that was only valid for snow globes without realizing it.
There's none, really, except that trusts designed with firearms in mind often have language that specifies compliance with relevant firearm laws. You're looking for a revocable trust, so you can add or remove other people. If you have legal assistance, I'd let them do that footwork for you.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by LowKey » Tue May 26, 2015 3:00 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
kbilly84 wrote:Next question... I just learned that I get free legal assistance as one of my benefits at work. Haven't looked too far into it yet, but on the surface it looks like it may include creating trusts.

So... for those that have an NFA trust, what's the difference between that and a regular trust? i.e. what questions do I need to ask a lawyer to make sure I'm getting the right kind of trust? I'd really hate to go thru all the work and have it all negated and have my dog get shot just because I got a trust that was only valid for snow globes without realizing it.
There's none, really, except that trusts designed with firearms in mind often have language that specifies compliance with relevant firearm laws. You're looking for a revocable trust, so you can add or remove other people. If you have legal assistance, I'd let them do that footwork for you.
Essentially, I concur.
If the trust were discretionary (giving the trustees discretion in how they carry out their obligations) and you were %100 sure that any trustees over the course of the trust would be 100% familiar with all the pertinent laws related to NFA items then you wouldn't need the special verbiage to ensure compliance and protect the trust. They would follow the law as a matter of course.
If you can't be sure of that, let an attorney structure it for you and put in language that will prevent a trustee who isn't familiar with the laws from making a very bad mistake.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by kbilly84 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:42 am

Update... I'm meeting with a lawyer in a few weeks to get started on a trust. Turns out, it will be totally free for me. :clap:
So, that means I have a few questions to ask of those that know more about NFA trusts than I do...
  1. I've heard terms like "revocable trust" or "multi-generational asset protection". I think I get it... "revocable" means I can change it whenever I feel like, and the "asset protection" part is more high-speed way of saying it will make sure stuff n things stay in the family...... RIght?
  2. So, the basic difference between a regular trust and an NFA or gun trust is language specific to firearms. What kind of language?
  3. Are there any questions is should ask the lawyer, to be sure she's "doing it right"?
Thanks again to all for the help!

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by 91Eunozs » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:54 am

The only verbiage in mine that's "firearm" specific relates to lawful/legal use of assets held by the trust...and of course limits the age of trustees to 21 due to some items listed on the asset schedule.
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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Dabster » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:24 pm

I am really close to starting on the road to get my first rifle suppressor. I am very satisfied with my first Silencerco suppressor and love the qualities of their new Omega suppressor (Smaller than most, lighter than most, quieter than most, will work with my 5.56 SBR and my 7.62x51 AR-10 and (most importantly) it can be purchased in Flat Dark Earth). I have heard it is not as quiet as first reported but it still seems quiet (and flexible) enough for my needs.

Has anyone heard of a good reason to avoid this suppressor?
Has anyone heard of a comparable suppressor in this price range (~$900)?
Has anyone heard of a reason to avoid a Cerakoted suppressor? I know if ridden hard they will discolor...
Has anyone ever had regrets buying directly from SilencerShop?

I have asked myself these questions a thousand times and the answer is always no. Just looking for a quick reality check.

Thanks!

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by MachineGunMonkey » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:47 pm

Dabster wrote:I am really close to starting on the road to get my first rifle suppressor. I am very satisfied with my first Silencerco suppressor and love the qualities of their new Omega suppressor (Smaller than most, lighter than most, quieter than most, will work with my 5.56 SBR and my 7.62x51 AR-10 and (most importantly) it can be purchased in Flat Dark Earth). I have heard it is not as quiet as first reported but it still seems quiet (and flexible) enough for my needs.

Has anyone heard of a good reason to avoid this suppressor?
Has anyone heard of a comparable suppressor in this price range (~$900)?
Has anyone heard of a reason to avoid a Cerakoted suppressor? I know if ridden hard they will discolor...
Has anyone ever had regrets buying directly from SilencerShop?

I have asked myself these questions a thousand times and the answer is always no. Just looking for a quick reality check.

Thanks!

PS: FDE!
PPS: Because.
PPPS: 'Merica!
First off, smart move making your first can a .308 one. My first can was a 5.56 and I was quickly disappointed in the characteristics of suppressed 5.56 and ended up getting a .308 Cyclone which I use on both my 7.62x39 and 5.56 firearms.

As with almost all SilencerCo cans, the Omega is a good one and will fit your needs very well, plus it is very light.

I don't think you'll have any issues with discoloration unless you're firing a lot of full-auto.

I haven't heard any negative things about SilencerShop.

Enjoy your first can (and the wait)!

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Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Dabster » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:11 am

MachineGunMonkey wrote:
Dabster wrote:I am really close to starting on the road to get my first rifle suppressor. I am very satisfied with my first Silencerco suppressor and love the qualities of their new Omega suppressor (Smaller than most, lighter than most, quieter than most, will work with my 5.56 SBR and my 7.62x51 AR-10 and (most importantly) it can be purchased in Flat Dark Earth). I have heard it is not as quiet as first reported but it still seems quiet (and flexible) enough for my needs.

Has anyone heard of a good reason to avoid this suppressor?
Has anyone heard of a comparable suppressor in this price range (~$900)?
Has anyone heard of a reason to avoid a Cerakoted suppressor? I know if ridden hard they will discolor...
Has anyone ever had regrets buying directly from SilencerShop?

I have asked myself these questions a thousand times and the answer is always no. Just looking for a quick reality check.

Thanks!

PS: FDE!
PPS: Because.
PPPS: 'Merica!
First off, smart move making your first can a .308 one. My first can was a 5.56 and I was quickly disappointed in the characteristics of suppressed 5.56 and ended up getting a .308 Cyclone which I use on both my 7.62x39 and 5.56 firearms.

As with almost all SilencerCo cans, the Omega is a good one and will fit your needs very well, plus it is very light.

I don't think you'll have any issues with discoloration unless you're firing a lot of full-auto.

I haven't heard any negative things about SilencerShop.

Enjoy your first can (and the wait)!
Thanks for your reply. Here's a little update...

Talked with the local reputable suppressor dealer two months ago. They refuse to deal with Silencer Shop and they can't get the limited edition FDE Omega (they did offer to paint one. Thanks but no thanks) but they sold me a plain black Omega for just $40 more than SS (huge time savings) and they swapped out the 7.62 muzzle brake for a 5.56 flash hider.

The 5.56 AST flash hider came in about two weeks ago. They installed it and I had a short but sweet conjugal visit.

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