All purpose NFA questions thread

General discussions regarding topics that aren't covered in one of the other sub-forums. NO DISCUSSION OF POLITICS!

Moderators: ZS Global Moderators, ZS Postal Match Officers

JustAnotherSnakeCult
* * *
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:42 am

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:10 pm

Apologizes. I'm 99% sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find it.

If you're building an SBR (AR) with a rail that extends beyond the barrel, do you measure the length to the end of the barrel or rail? Thanks

User avatar
91Eunozs
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:16 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: All of them!
Location: Hill Country, Texas

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by 91Eunozs » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:48 pm

JustAnotherSnakeCult wrote:Apologizes. I'm 99% sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find it.

If you're building an SBR (AR) with a rail that extends beyond the barrel, do you measure the length to the end of the barrel or rail? Thanks
Short BARREL Rifle... I'd have to look up the actual reference but it's the barrel.

Bonus points for creativity though! :wink:
Molon Latte...come & take our coffee order
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:... It's fun to play pretend, but this is the internet, and it's time to be serious.
zengunfighter wrote:... you don't want to blow a tranny in the middle of a pursuit...
woodsghost wrote:... A defensive gun without training is basically a talisman. It might ward off evil, but I wouldn't count on it.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:55 pm

91Eunozs wrote:
JustAnotherSnakeCult wrote:Apologizes. I'm 99% sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find it.

If you're building an SBR (AR) with a rail that extends beyond the barrel, do you measure the length to the end of the barrel or rail? Thanks
Short BARREL Rifle... I'd have to look up the actual reference but it's the barrel.

Bonus points for creativity though! :wink:
Remember that overall length is measured as well.

That said, per: http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-2.pdf
The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion
of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

JustAnotherSnakeCult
* * *
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:42 am

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by JustAnotherSnakeCult » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Thanks! Barrel makes sense but how often do ATF regs make sense?

User avatar
CitizenZ
* * * * *
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:10 am

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by CitizenZ » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:27 pm

If you're building an SBR... why does it matter? You can make it as short as you want. No one is going to measure it.
"Victory awaits him who has everything in order, luck people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck"- The South Pole, Roald Amundsen - 1912

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:55 pm

Have to put something on the stamp. For an AR, it matters less because of the lego upper ability, but with somethign less ridiculously modular, it wouldn't do to submit incorrect paperwork. Not likely anyone would ever check, but is it worth the risk? Nope. Same reason I left an extra quarter inch when I cut down one of my single barrels, it didn't hurt me at all and it helps prevent a little bit of hassle if someone ever checks it and their Harbor Freight tape measure if off by a pubesbreadth.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
Dogan
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4931
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 am
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Dogan » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:59 pm

Would attaching a Sig SB15 arm brace to a KelTec PLR-16 constitute an SBR since you must attach an AR stock adapter (thus intent and all?), or would it still be a pistol? Or is this a legal gray area?

Cause I've got to admit, a PLR16 with an ACE adapter hooked up to an SB15 and a Burris FastFire RDS seems like a pretty sweet little PDW.
goofygurl wrote:Dogan – In charge of all things fucked up
Are you ready to die, John Walker?| CLAPTRAP!
Your lucky number has been disconnected.|ASCII biohazard symbol: ☣
Winner of the May/June 2013 ZS Postal Match

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:09 pm

Dogan wrote:Would attaching a Sig SB15 arm brace to a KelTec PLR-16 constitute an SBR since you must attach an AR stock adapter (thus intent and all?), or would it still be a pistol? Or is this a legal gray area?

Cause I've got to admit, a PLR16 with an ACE adapter hooked up to an SB15 and a Burris FastFire RDS seems like a pretty sweet little PDW.
Historically, the reason the buffer tube-mounted brace is allowed is that the buffer tube is a required part of the AR. If you don't want an AR, consider the AK version: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/compone ... l?Itemid=0
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

eeb
* * * *
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:33 pm

If you can do that to an AK, can you also do that to a Glock? Seems reasonable, as neither require a buffer tube, but many have noted that "reasonable" has very little to do with ATF's decisions.
Last edited by eeb on Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Illegal spying is not a crime. Well, it is, but fuck it."-NSA

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:34 pm

eeb wrote:If you can do that to an AK, can you also do that to a Glock?
Submit your design to ATF for approval and wait for a reply. Could be money in it.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

eeb
* * * *
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:45 pm

I'll leave it for Mako ;) Think they have a similar design already, just need to convert from a buttstock to arm brace/strap setup.
"Illegal spying is not a crime. Well, it is, but fuck it."-NSA

User avatar
Rugger
* * *
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:12 pm
Location: Texas

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Rugger » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:38 am

Is my door going to be kicked in/house raided/family terrorized/dog shot because I bought an EP Armory 80% lower from Ares Armory?
*WARNING: The above post may contain sarcasm and/or sophisticated satire. Any psychological or emotional damage sustained by the reader is NOT the responsibility of the contributor.
Image Red Wire Rules!!

User avatar
UndeadInfidel
* * * * *
Posts: 2342
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:49 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Zombieland, Dawn of the Dead
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by UndeadInfidel » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:11 pm

Rugger wrote:Is my door going to be kicked in/house raided/family terrorized/dog shot because I bought an EP Armory 80% lower from Ares Armory?
No. They just want to know you have it... just in case.
Image

eeb
* * * *
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by eeb » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:32 pm

Rugger wrote:Is my door going to be kicked in/house raided/family terrorized/dog shot because I bought an EP Armory 80% lower from Ares Armory?
Maybe
"Illegal spying is not a crime. Well, it is, but fuck it."-NSA

User avatar
shiddymunkie
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:13 am
Location: Aurora, CO.

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by shiddymunkie » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:23 am

Rugger wrote:Is my door going to be kicked in/house raided/family terrorized/dog shot because I bought an EP Armory 80% lower from Ares Armory?
Well, that all depends. Does your house have windows which men (suspended via helicopter) can repel through with smoke canisters, laser beams, etc? If not, then you're probably good.

User avatar
WutsFrequencyKeneth
* *
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:52 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:41 am

Historically speaking, you'll get a letter first.

User avatar
Gingerbread Man
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 10834
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 10:05 am

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Gingerbread Man » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:58 am

ATF has determined putting the buffer tube or the AR Brace on your shoulder does not constitute constructing an unlawful SBR.

Yupe, you can put that AR pistol on your shoulder.

There is a letter but I can't access it from work. If someone else can post it?
Shrapnel wrote "nobody is trying to be a dick and give out warnings for every little thing" :|
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1icEssOUM

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:17 am

GBM beat me to the punch.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/216207869/SIG-BATFE-LETTER
For the following reasons, we have determined that firing a pistol from the shoulder would not cause the pistol to be reclassified as an Short Barreled Rifle (SBR).

FTB classifies weapons based on their physical design characteristics. While usage/functionality of the weapon does influence intended design, it is not the sole criterion for determining the classification of a weapon. Generally speaking, we do not classify weapons based on how an individual uses a weapon.

FTB has previously determined (see FTB #99146) that the firing of a weapon from a particular position, such as placing the receiver extension of an AR-15 type pistol on the user's shoulder, does not change the classification of a weapon. Further, certain firearm accessories such as the SIG Stability Brace have not been classified by FTB as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change. Using an accessory improperly would not change the classification of a weapon per Federal law. However FTB cannot recommend using a weapon (or weapon accessory) in a manner not intended by the manufacturer.
Some emphasis mine.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
AS556
* * * * *
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead ('04),28 Days Later,Shaun of the Dead,Zombieland
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by AS556 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:42 am

Anybody know if the NFA background check is the same as the NCIS? I got an ELS from the USMC as a wee lad but have bought over a dozen guns since then and have a CHL. I think I'm gtg.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:11 am

AS556 wrote:Anybody know if the NFA background check is the same as the NCIS? I got an ELS from the USMC as a wee lad but have bought over a dozen guns since then and have a CHL. I think I'm gtg.
It's different than NCIS/JAGO/JPAS and from the basic NICS check too. ELS won't affect anything, it's no different than any other ADSEP. Only discharge that could hurt your background check would be a a BCD, DD, or a psych-related medsep.

The worst thing about the NFA application process is the ridiculous backlog.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
0122358
* * * * *
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:07 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead (2004)
Zombieland
Location: Purdy...Washington

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by 0122358 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:09 am

Ok question...

I have a stripped lower sitting in my safe from a year ago that I was planning on turning into a M16A4 clone, but with WA legalizing SBRs in june I want to jump on the band wagon asap. So can I take my stripped and send its serial number and all the other info I need off to the ATF with my moneyz or should I just buy a whole 'nother stripped lower to use?
SMoAF wrote:Your sin is one of geography, not one of unmanliness. Pimp's sin is that he's, well....himself.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'd rather have 10 spooky-sized aircraft in an AO than 100 drones, because fuck those fucking pred flyboys who can't tell the difference between a shovel and an RPK.

User avatar
AS556
* * * * *
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead ('04),28 Days Later,Shaun of the Dead,Zombieland
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by AS556 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:05 am

I say get the ball rolling but build it into a pistol to play with for now.

Thanks doc, ZS may just have a new shorty and can owner.

User avatar
Brotherbadger
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:59 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Curse of the Cannibal Confederates(so terrible it's great)
Location: Wisconsin

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Brotherbadger » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:06 am

Ugh, after looking at a 300 blackout upper and seeing how awesome it would be to use for hunting, i want an SBR. Time to get a form 1 going for my lower. Is the wait still over 6 months?
Doc Torr wrote:You forgot to add that birdshot only hurts badguys, so you can bounce it off the floor, walls, or even yourself for nonlethal takedowns. Load some beanbags and dragon's Breath too, because you shouldn't stop shooting until they're on fire.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: All purpose NFA questions thread

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:10 am

Brotherbadger wrote:Ugh, after looking at a 300 blackout upper and seeing how awesome it would be to use for hunting, i want an SBR. Time to get a form 1 going for my lower. Is the wait still over 6 months?
Yep. BOHICA.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

Post Reply

Return to “General Firearms Discussion”