Hows your accuracy?

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Post by Pondo_Sinatra » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:37 pm

Jvandenhaus wrote:I didn't mean to sound snooty.

I am not a good rifle shot, but I am trying to get better. Since I don't shoot with people or have any public ranges to shoot at, I have nothing to measure myself against, so clays was the target I chose. I assumed that everyone could do it.

I do often run before shooting to get the blood up, but mostly for pistols. with rifles I might just keep running and evade...or maybe not.

For you guys using glass, calm down, this test with scoped rifles at 100m isn't impressive. Listen to what the OP's message is here. It's test yourself, not bang off some easy target to prove how manly you are.

I heard someone mention the Appleseed, and I'm trying really hard not to start a fight, but have you ACTUALLY engaged a head-sized target at an ACTUAL 250 yards with irons and made the shot? If you have, my hat's off to you. I just ask because I know that Appleseed is fond of simulated ranges and equivalent targets.
No fight. I wasn't trying to "advertise" Appleseed in any way, nor imply that their program will make anyone the next Carlos Hathcock (or more appropriately, Simo Häyhä). I was just using it as an example of what some folks are doing to improve their accuracy beyond hitting an 8.5 x 11" piece of paper, that's all. I get what the OP was trying to say, but there's really no reason to stop there. And if you can't hit the paper at 100 yards, practice more.

And FWIW, I don't practice to make head shots, I practice only to get better. That's all. Not for trophies, certificates, or badges. I'm all for improving yourself on the range simply for the sake of improvement.

I had a friend years ago that would take noobs shooting starting them off on a piece of poster board. His reasoning was that at least if they could hit *something* they might go shooting again. And if they went shooting again, they would get better.

It really *is* all about getting better, isn't it?

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Post by joro » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:57 pm

doctor_ocks wrote:
farblue wrote:Check out the Appleseed project. To become a "rifleman", you shoot be able to take a headshot at 250 yards, and a body shot at 500. Repeatedly. With iron sights.
My problem with the appleseed project is this
Appleseed Project Home Page wrote:What's a rifleman?
In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.
That just seems silly and cheap.
That is ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can advertise like that and be taken seriously.

On topic to the OP, you just need more practice. 100 yds. with irons at a sheet of paper is easier to do than you think. You'll be able to do it.
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Post by misanthropist » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:05 pm

I agree, with practise that is not difficult at all.

I haven't been shooting much over the winter, but in the summers I shoot regularly at a target about that size...11" steel plate...at 400m, with irons. With glass it's almost not worth trying...not very difficult at all. Off the irons I get about 90% hits with a 1.25 moa m14. So the rifle is still better than I am, but not all that much.

Shooting it with a couple of different bolt guns with a 10x scope, I don't think I've ever missed.

The pushups is a good plan...when I shoot this target I have to hike across the valley to set it up, then hike back. To shoot immediately after returning from the hike (two steep climbs) is much more difficult.
DocGKR wrote:.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.

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Post by FlatlinesUp » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:11 pm

slight changes:

Scope for irons
Guinness for pushups


Check.

I'm good to go on the MkII version of the "test" of my rifle abilities.



BTW: Don't think my changes are "real world"? Well, my rem700 doesn't even have irons, and you're damnsure more likely to catch me with a guinness in my hand as doing any pushups.
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Post by Pondo_Sinatra » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:55 pm

FlatlinesUp wrote:slight changes:

Scope for irons
Guinness for pushups


Check.

I'm good to go on the MkII version of the "test" of my rifle abilities.



BTW: Don't think my changes are "real world"? Well, my rem700 doesn't even have irons, and you're damnsure more likely to catch me with a guinness in my hand as doing any pushups.
Damn. 20 pints of Guinness, I don't think I would even be able to recognize a rifle, much less use one.

Guess I need more practice with both. Just not at the same time. :wink:

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Post by Rush2112 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:36 pm

[Thread Derail]Guinness?? Where??[/Thread Derail]

I'll say this much: 100yds is a HELL of a lot farther than I thought it was.
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Post by mk_ultra » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:42 pm

My personal standards for accuracy have never been from a bench.

Can you reliably put rounds center mass on a man sized target at 25 to 75 meters while moving ?

That is the standard I usually go by.

But that's just me.



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Post by zombie_mike » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:09 pm

I don't even know what you are asking/implying.

And yes, I was just out today shooting my homemade Romy AK at an 8''11'', iron sights, rested and off-hand.

And yes, I can hit it.
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Post by zebadiahjones » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:02 am

joro wrote:
doctor_ocks wrote:
farblue wrote:Check out the Appleseed project. To become a "rifleman", you shoot be able to take a headshot at 250 yards, and a body shot at 500. Repeatedly. With iron sights.
My problem with the appleseed project is this
Appleseed Project Home Page wrote:What's a rifleman?
In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.
That just seems silly and cheap.
That is ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can advertise like that and be taken seriously.

On topic to the OP, you just need more practice. 100 yds. with irons at a sheet of paper is easier to do than you think. You'll be able to do it.

I don't totally understand why people knock Appleseed. Have any of you been to one? If you're so good it doesn't help you and you go home, then what are you out of? 45 or 70 bucks? My gas every day costs more than that. Going out to eat someplace nice will cost you that. Is a day of shooting ever really a waste? If it helps people, then why the bitching? Is it the "will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country" comment? I can understand disagreeing with that.
joro wrote: On topic to the OP, you just need more practice. 100 yds. with irons at a sheet of paper is easier to do than you think. You'll be able to do it.
What if he doesn't have anyone to show him the basics? For years, my shooting positions were just based of what I had seen in pictures from old books (think Marines training) and from some typewritten info on sling use and sitting positions.

And from what I can tell appleseed just emphasizes iron sights as a basic skill to be learned, like driving a stick shift before an automatic. As someone who grew up with an automatic first, and as a guy who has had scopes go all to hell when they were needed, I think that makes perfect sense.

And reduced sized targets are silly. But they're hard, too.

I just don't understand publicly bashing a group trying to make people better shooters.
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Post by ninja-elbow » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:14 am

you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom.
Well, if I'm defending my country tomorrow with a rifle - the country has gone to shit - so I would really enjoy anyone with some rudimentary skill, whether they scored expert or not, with me with a rifle. Also, if somebody is not able to score expert on rifles, there's plenty for them to do other than cook, like shoot the rifle at other folks in defense of our country anyways; which BTW a cook is something I'd want around me too.

What I'm saying is that whole passage is rather cock and balls. It does not inspire me to go get real good with a rifle.
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Re: Hows your accuracy?

Post by Shadowsbane » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 am

glockinmypocket wrote:
SimonJester308 wrote:Want to make it interesting? Before you set up for your shot, knock out about 20 pushups. Get your heart rate up. No problem right?
You want to make it even more interesting? Break some flaming pottery in between your shots. And yell a lot.
Can I shout "Get to the Choppa" while doing so?

93.5 square inches isn't that hard to keep on at 100 yards.

Hell my wife was doing better than that the first time she went shooting ever.
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Post by misanthropist » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:37 am

mk_ultra wrote:My personal standards for accuracy have never been from a bench.

Can you reliably put rounds center mass on a man sized target at 25 to 75 meters while moving ?

That is the standard I usually go by.

But that's just me.



:D
For anyone who can't do this, I would say the following: if you buy an eotech and 300 rounds of ammo, and practise with that 299 rounds of that ammo, and you still can't do this, shoot yourself with the last round! You are terrible!

But you know, that is a much more realistic combat encounter than my "across the valley" sniping. And it is not difficult to learn...although off the irons, it's not nearly as quick as with a fancy holosight, in my experience. I like the holo gear for this sort of thing because I want my head sticking up for the shortest possible time at that range!

However, my 2 absolute go-to m14s are set up with just irons...a good shooter with irons can be deadly for sure!
DocGKR wrote:.45 ACP is much easier to stop with armor than the smaller, faster 9 mm. On the other hand, the larger mass of .45 ACP allows it to do much better against windshields than 9 mm. What is optimal all depends on your likely engagement scenarios.

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Post by zebadiahjones » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:09 am

ninja-elbow wrote:
you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom.
Well, if I'm defending my country tomorrow with a rifle - the country has gone to shit - so I would really enjoy anyone with some rudimentary skill, whether they scored expert or not, with me with a rifle. Also, if somebody is not able to score expert on rifles, there's plenty for them to do other than cook, like shoot the rifle at other folks in defense of our country anyways; which BTW a cook is something I'd want around me too.

What I'm saying is that whole passage is rather cock and balls. It does not inspire me to go get real good with a rifle.
I'll admit, I wouldn't want to be too close to the guys that need to be within 200 yds to hit. But if it wasn't tomorrow, but a year from now, wouldn't you try to invest in the mediocre shooters to bring them up to speed? The cook/rifleman thing is just trying to hold people to a harder standard then the marskman/sharpshooter/expert standard, with marksman being "good enough". Of course sub-expert shooters would still fight, but it forces them to fight on the exact same terms as every nation's military on earth, except they won't have as much equipment and support.

"It does not inspire me to go get real good with a rifle."
What does? I would assume it was something internal that makes you want to be better, especially at something that would be life-or-death.
I assume the cook thing is just to make people realize they may not be the spectacular shots they think they are.

None of my friends every inspired me to get real good at running 3-5 miles a day. It's not important to me. If shooting isn't important to you, why would you get inspired?

If it bothers you, then ignore it unless you are willing to do something about it. If you want to get better, try an appleseed. If you find out you're already a good shooter, or if you know right now that you are, then try something harder and at least ten times as expensive, or teach your friends.
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Post by ZScott » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:13 am

doctor_ocks wrote:
farblue wrote:Check out the Appleseed project. To become a "rifleman", you shoot be able to take a headshot at 250 yards, and a body shot at 500. Repeatedly. With iron sights.
My problem with the appleseed project is this
Appleseed Project Home Page wrote:What's a rifleman?
In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.


That just seems silly and cheap.
:roll: :D

In my Day a Marine Cook(heck any Marine) who Qualified as a Marksman (min to pass) was better then an Army Expert. Then again that was back in the late 70s early 80s. Don't know what or how the Army Qualifies now days, heard they changed things. Any one know?
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Post by Molon Labe » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:21 am

300 meters was the furthest target for the M16/M4 rifle range, with 40 targets all together. The SAW and 240 ranges were much further out. The M21 and M24 range went out to 800. Atleast it was up in AK.

Edit for spelling.
Last edited by Molon Labe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zebadiahjones » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:50 am

The 300m range is a joke, and most people wouldn't even shoot at the 300 or the 250. All I got out of it was endless practice at trigger control through "dime drills" with a washer on the end of the barrel to keep you from jerking the trigger (dryfire). And anyone who has seen the habits picked up with blanks knows how useless the army is at marksmanship, at least by the avg. joe.
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Post by Obiwan » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:09 am

Okay...I think we have estblished that

1. Most of us can hit the copy paper at 100 yards with open sites
(I have done this with every milsurp I have owned)

2. A lot of you cannot do pushups :D
( I generally do 30-50 at a time)

3. Some of you seem to think Erik does girl pushups ( watch your back :wink: )

The original premise is valid......skill with your weapon is important, a lot of people fold under pressure. Training can help prevent that. Most good instructors inject physical and psychological stress into their training classes to demonstrate this
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Post by Simo Hayha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:38 am

my accuracy, is shit
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Post by lawless » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:49 am

What if he doesn't have anyone to show him the basics? For years, my shooting positions were just based of what I had seen in pictures from old books (think Marines training) and from some typewritten info on sling use and sitting positions.
I'm with you there, man. Just about everything I know about firearms, hunting, fishing, etc I've picked up from books and trial and error. Not everyone has a $1000 to throw down for classes at Gunsite and not everyone made it to the military.
On the other hand a thread /forum w/ a short quiz afterwards would keep 99% of the asshats out.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but that came off as a bit on the elitist side, my friend. I thought ZS was about helping and learning from each other. Though I agree that introduction forums are a waste.
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Post by Molon Labe » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:52 am

zebadiahjones wrote:The 300m range is a joke, and most people wouldn't even shoot at the 300 or the 250. All I got out of it was endless practice at trigger control through "dime drills" with a washer on the end of the barrel to keep you from jerking the trigger (dryfire). And anyone who has seen the habits picked up with blanks knows how useless the army is at marksmanship, at least by the avg. joe.


I'm glad that you clarified with that last bit. There are some of us "Joes" that actually take pride in our ability to put lead on target. But I am ashamed to admit that most 11series MOS types were lucky to paste anything beyond 200-250m. Which doesn't say much for non-infantry personel. True marksmanship usually wasn't found outside the Scout Plts. Fuck'n shame, really.
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Post by jamoni » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:29 am

zebadiahjones wrote:The 300m range is a joke, and most people wouldn't even shoot at the 300 or the 250. All I got out of it was endless practice at trigger control through "dime drills" with a washer on the end of the barrel to keep you from jerking the trigger (dryfire). And anyone who has seen the habits picked up with blanks knows how useless the army is at marksmanship, at least by the avg. joe.
What Army was that? Because it sure as hell wasn't the one I was in. Where you active duty?
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Post by Master Shake » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:41 am

Ive hit half a beer bottle at 50yards with my Glock on the first shot. Is that good? :)
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Post by ninja-elbow » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:31 pm

"It does not inspire me to go get real good with a rifle."
What does? I would assume it was something internal that makes you want to be better, especially at something that would be life-or-death.
I assume the cook thing is just to make people realize they may not be the spectacular shots they think they are.
Well, being in the Navy inspired me to be a good marksman - regardless of inter-service rivalry and bullshit talk. I got me an expert rifle medal to boot. I'm pretty proud of that one, it was hard to get and took me a few years of shooting our M14s.

I'm inspired by good people with an ability to communicate without flipping out when one invariably does something wrong in training.

All I'm saying is tough guy talk is pretty much bullshit and the reason I see the shooting sports degrading the way it is. I'm inspired by the kind range-masters at the PSTC in Clackamas County who seem to want to teach you to be safe and accurate with your pistols, all with a smile and kind words. The last time I was there a week ago, they congratulated me in bringing in so many new folks who have never shot and being a good guest. That inspires me.

If you're going to try to denegrate me by calling me a 'cook' if I'm not up to your standards, there is just too many levels of bullshit on that and me and my skills will walk.

So, on topic: Practice, it is good for you. :) Do some push-ups while you'ra at it, those are good for you too.
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Re: Hows your accuracy?

Post by Hoppy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:48 pm

SimonJester308 wrote:So, pretty handy with a rifle?
sufficient
SimonJester308 wrote:Can you hit a blank piece of copy paper (8.5x11) @ 100 yards? Open sights?
yup. .223. .22. 7.5 swiss. Besideds open sights is there any other way to aim a rifle?
SimonJester308 wrote:Not as easy as it sounds.
eh its fun atleast
SimonJester308 wrote:Dont believe me, try it.
i have
SimonJester308 wrote:Want to make it interesting?
Sure.
SimonJester308 wrote:Before you set up for your shot, knock out about 20 pushups. Get your heart rate up. No problem right?
that sounds a little like a challenge.
SimonJester308 wrote:Now use a green and brown colored sheet of copy paper. Your breathing hard, your hearts beating pretty fast, and that white piece of paper that is no wider than the front sight of your rifle just disappeared. Quite the pickle, no?
starting to get interesting
SimonJester308 wrote:I would love to be able to brag about how I shred that piece of paper on a regular basis, but the truth is that white piece of copy paper laughs at me.
i agree... The paper laughs at you? seek hep man
:lol:
SimonJester308 wrote:Because if you cant hit that piece of paper 10 out of 10 times, every time, all the time, you might have a short day of days when you are needed most.
well if its so hard, than arguably they wont be able to hit me either. :D
2. A lot of you cannot do pushups Very Happy
( I generally do 30-50 at a time)
used to do 3 sets of 50, with stretches in between.
now i do 2 sets of 50 with stretches. but im working back up to 3
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