What's so hard to get??

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What's so hard to get??

Post by Rush2112 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:18 am

I went to the range again this weekend and brought a buddy of mine with me. He knows how I feel about proper handling of firearms and they're MY bloody firearms. So why must I repeatedly tell him the same things over and over?

-Weapon pointed downrange
-Finger off the trigger until you have acquired your target and are ready to fire.
-Finger off the trigger while people are downrange.
-Do not load a magazine into a gun you do not intend to shoot right away and by no means chamber a round until you are ready to fire.

This is not the only friend I have had problems with. They all keep doggedly asking the same questions: Why point it away/keep my finger off? It's not loaded, see?" Or "Aren't you being a little overcautious?"

NO, I AM NOT!

When I go to a gun range or a gun shop, the people working there treat me as they treat all young people: With caution. Because we're all young and dumbasses (I'm not being sarcastic, we are). But they always warm up to me when they see my muzzle control and general safety while handling their merchandise. I was downright EMBARRASSED see how my friend behaved in front of the owner of my favorite gun shop/range. I could also tell that the owner was uneasy about him. When I go, I can move about freely picking up whatever I want and examining it. Today, that guy followed my buddy around from a distance, watching everything he did. I swear, his finger had a trigger magnet on it.

I have, on one other occasion, had a similar problem with another friend who knows I carry occasionally. We were at my house and asked to see a handgun. He'd never held one before and I was trying to get him to come to the range some time with me so I thought this might get him to go. I took it out of the drawer where I keep it for home-defense purposes and said "Hang on while I take out the mag and make it safe."

I removed the magazine, locked the slide back and handed it to him, first explaining about keeping your finger off the trigger and to point it in a safe direction. The floor is the best way at my house as it is a relatively unused basement. He does the whole "yeah yeah I got it" thing and I hand it to him. He releases the slide and quick as can be, the finger is on the trigger......WTF? I told him to put it down and, after some protesting that "It's not loaded" and "I'm not going to pull the trigger", he finally did put it down at which point I picked it back up and let the hammer down. Needless to say I never let him touch the thing again and am glad he never wanted to go to the range with me since I am "A dick about guns".

Do you all encounter this irrational behavior or am I just... :roll: lucky?
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Post by AwPhuch » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:46 am

Some people have had firearm safety beat into them...others feel it necessary to try a bit harder with a dangerous weapon

DO NOT EVER turn you back on that guy till he shows he is capable of firearm safety 100% of the time, even an inattentive person can have a ND, and by what you are saying he may have a ND into your backside!

Teach him the ways of good firearm safety...but don't trust him to be safe
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Post by roskoepcold » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:09 am

id hate to say it, but thats why i dont take people that havent been around guns, or arent responsible, shooting with me anymore. they dont know what they doing, and they try to call you out when they think youre making a mistake. i rember when i took my loud moulth assed friend once. he was shooting my mossberg 500, and when he finished all the shells, he was just sitting there racking it and pulling the trigger, over and over, i told him to stop cuz it wasnt good for the gun. so after i shoot it, i go and make sure its clear. this fool starts hollerin about how im doing the same thing, like hes ever even seen a gun in his life beafore. i know its good to show people our thing. but ill be damned if i take a bullet in the noodle trying to show somebody something new because they too cocky to listen and realize that its seirous buisness.
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Post by AwPhuch » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:12 am

roskoepcold wrote:id hate to say it, but thats why i dont take people that havent been around guns, or arent responsible, shooting with me anymore. they dont know what they doing, and they try to call you out when they think youre making a mistake. i rember when i took my loud moulth assed friend once. he was shooting my mossberg 500, and when he finished all the shells, he was just sitting there racking it and pulling the trigger, over and over, i told him to stop cuz it wasnt good for the gun. so after i shoot it, i go and make sure its clear. this fool starts hollerin about how im doing the same thing, like hes ever even seen a gun in his life beafore. i know its good to show people our thing. but ill be damned if i take a bullet in the noodle trying to show somebody something new because they too cocky to listen and realize that its seirous buisness.
I'd hate to say it, but thats why I don't take people that haven't been around guns, or aren't responsible, shooting with me anymore. They don't know what they're doing, and they try to call you out when they think you're making a mistake. I remember when I took my loud mouth assed friend once. He was shooting my Mossberg 500, and when he finished all the shells, he was just sitting there racking it and pulling the trigger, over and over, I told him to stop cuz it wasn't good for the gun. So after shoot it, I go and make sure its clear. This fool starts hollerin about how I'm doing the same thing, like hes ever even seen a gun in his life before. I know its good to show people our thing. But i'll be damned if I take a bullet in the noodle trying to show somebody something new because they're too cocky to listen and realize that its serious business.
Sorry...I'm usually not a grammar/spelling Nazi..but DAMN!!!!!!!

Please don't take it offensively...get Firefox..it has a built in spell checker, otherwise my spelling would be much worse than yours
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Post by Abacus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:32 am

I don't hate to say it, I am as anti-social in shooting as I am in everything else. I generally don't take people shooting with me, I don't try to encourage new shooters, I don't teach. It's just not worth it.
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Post by Jhangles » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:34 am

Three friends and I went out one time to shoot my SAR-1 AK. We were shooting at this 100-125 yard quarry place that people had left all likes of junk to shoot at.

After setting up a target about 75 yards away, we all took turns with the gun, and burned through about 600 rounds. Towards the end of our shooting, some guys set up next to us shooting skeet away from us to our right.

The last person to shoot my AK was this guy that has the reputation to be a little stupid sometimes. We had all been drilling gun safety into him the entire time.

He starts walking towards the target while shooting from the hip. Then when he had emptied the mag, he turns back around pointing the weapon at us and the skeet guys! So we all started yelling at him to point the gun down, but he just gets a dumb look on his face since he can't hear what we are saying. He finally gets a look of comprehension on his face and ponts the gun down, while taking his finger off the trigger. I was soo pissed.

He's never shot (or even touched) one of my guns since. I'm a lot more selective with who I go shooting with now.

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Post by jeepinbandtrider » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:35 am

I make it well known to the folks I know that don't shoot very often or only go when the Marine Corps makes them qual that my firearms and my instruction are open to ANYONE who wants to learn and put some lead down range. I'll even provide SOME of the ammo if it's your first time out.

The only way to save our hobby/sport/essential survival tool is to bring other folks into "the fold" so to speak. Granted I'm VERY cautious around new shooters and prefer to take new shooters to private property when I can.
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Post by wildbill » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:40 am

Jvandenhaus wrote:I don't hate to say it, I am as anti-social in shooting as I am in everything else. I generally don't take people shooting with me, I don't try to encourage new shooters, I don't teach. It's just not worth it.
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Post by AwPhuch » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:42 am

jeepinbandtrider wrote:I make it well known to the folks I know that don't shoot very often or only go when the Marine Corps makes them qual that my firearms and my instruction are open to ANYONE who wants to learn and put some lead down range. I'll even provide SOME of the ammo if it's your first time out.

The only way to save our hobby/sport/essential survival tool is to bring other folks into "the fold" so to speak. Granted I'm VERY cautious around new shooters and prefer to take new shooters to private property when I can.
Oh I'm not saying NOT to take noobs out shooting...you just have to be on guard 100% of the time and NEVER take your eyes off the shooter...and every time they make a safety violation you firmly remind them...which ends up making it somewhat difficult and stressful for not only the instructor but the instructed.

Safety above enjoyment until the noob has learned that muzzle awareness and trigger finger placement, once firearm safety sinks in you can lower your defences and enjoy it more...until that happens you can't fully enjoy it because you are running at level orange at all times
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Re: What's so hard to get??

Post by colinz » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:46 am

Rush2112 wrote: This is not the only friend I have had problems with. They all keep doggedly asking the same questions: Why point it away/keep my finger off? It's not loaded, see?" Or "Aren't you being a little overcautious?"
I know your pain dude. It gets worse when you have 8 x 12-15 year olds on the firing line the first time!

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Post by mr.trooper » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:57 am

This is why I don't take my friends shooting anymore.
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Re: What's so hard to get??

Post by MatC » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:57 am

Rush2112 wrote:Do you all encounter this irrational behavior or am I just... :roll: lucky?
Unfortunately, guns are just like anything else - there are people who treat them appropriately and there are people who mess around with them. Not everybody is courteous and kind while they're driving, despite the fact that not following accepted safety rules can endanger yourself and others. The same is true of firearms, with similar potential consequences.

So, in a similar way that you can choose not to ride in cars with friends who you feel are bad drivers - or let them take your car out for a spin - you can also choose not to go shooting with your friends who are reckless when handling guns. Sure, you can try it out and spend half the time harping on them for their bad form, but you'll both get annoyed pretty quickly.

Just a side note, though - it isn't only young punks who are bad about safety. I was at the range this weekend with my girlfriend and I was trying to emphasize to her the process of checking with all the other shooters to ensure that everyone is aware when the range is hot, making sure you don't handle any firearms when people are downrange, etc.

So, we're at the outside positions waiting for the all-clear to go down range from the two other shooters who were in the pistol house, when one of them (an old guy with some nice gear and NRA targets ... so, no newbie) comes out, walks right past us without even looking, much less checking with us, and strides down range without a care in the world. Sure, we weren't at the shooting position, and we had properly made my gun safe, but this seemed a little reckless. I felt better about it later, though, when my girlfriend said that she thought the guy's actions were unsafe too. I've taught her well. ;)
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Post by mantis » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:01 pm

I am always very careful of who I take to the range with me for that very reason. Some people just don't get it. It's isn't just the young people either. In all honestly, one of the people I am most comfortable with at the range is my Little Brother (Big Brothers program, no my actual brother). He's 11 and I have no problem putting a firearm in his hands. I've taught him everything I know about safety and he adheres to it all the time every time. I've even watched him correct people two or three times his age when they do something dumbassed on the range. You'd be surprised how sheepish some people look getting told off my an 11 year old boy. :lol:
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Post by Dave_M » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm

I can honestly say that nearly all of my friends are shooters and gun-safe.
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Post by mr.trooper » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:10 pm

DavePAL84 wrote:I can honestly say that nearly all of my friends are shooters and gun-safe.
Your lucky!

Even living in a gun friendly state, most of my friends have not grown up around guns, and their only real firearms experience comes from dealing with me.

They don't know how to act around guns. They just don't. I can tell them whatever I want, but the training isn't there so it usually falls on def ears. In there own minds they THINK that they ARE being safe, because they are meeting their own definitions of safe handling. The problem is that their ideas of safe handling is based on, well....nothing really. Its based on their "common sense" instead of the rules of gun safety.

My buddy (the one who constantly outs me) once dropped my LOADED CZ-75 onto concrete. This was after I gave him a lecture on gun safety. To this day he still thinks that it wasn't a big deal. I don't let him touch my guns anymore.
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Post by Shadowsbane » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:11 pm

My general rule of thumb is that if you want to go shooting or want to learn I will take/teach you. But, if you cannot respect me or the weapons enough to follow the most basic safety guidelines then forget it.

Their learning is not worth the possibility of loosing my life or theirs.
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Post by Grace » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:11 pm

My first impression reading about the OP's friends was that it sounded like a control issue. Some people, when learning new things, take someone giving them instruction (particularly if it's a peer) as being treated like a child, which makes them dig in their heels and refuse to take into account anything they're being told. Being strongly scolded is perfectly valid in firearm safety, of course, but I'd guess that they associate it with being scolded by their parents.
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Post by kyle » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:11 pm

I take new shooters out all the time and I love it.

I usually bring the to my house or take my guns to there house and walk them through basic safety instructions and proper operation of the firearms without ammo before we even hit the range. I make everything very clear. My theory is if they act stupid in that situation then I can make an excuse to get out of taking them to the live fire part of the adventure.

I've never had anyone complain to me about me being overly safe of cautious. If someone ever said that to me I'd tell them to put the gun down and explain to them how serious it is. He I don't feel comfortable that is sunk in right away that would be the last trip with them. So far, never had to happen.

I've taken out dozens of new shooters over the last couple years and have had no problems. Then again, I have a pretty good jack-ass detector.

I'm proud to say that I've helped to create lots of new very safe and responsible firearm owners.
Rush2112 wrote:-Finger off the trigger while people are downrange.
Why is anyone even touching a firearm when the range is "cold"? Everyone should unload all firearms and rack all firearms when there is a cease fire.
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Post by Rush2112 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:39 pm

kyle wrote:
I've taken out dozens of new shooters over the last couple years and have had no problems. Then again, I have a pretty good jack-ass detector.

I'm proud to say that I've helped to create lots of new very safe and responsible firearm owners.
Rush2112 wrote:-Finger off the trigger while people are downrange.
Why is anyone even touching a firearm when the range is "cold"? Everyone should unload all firearms and rack all firearms when there is a cease fire.
As far as the jack-ass detector goes, I have an excellent sense of who to trust and who not to. My friends call it "douche-dar" because they know from experience that after spending mere minutes with someone I can tell if they're going to be a douche or not. 100 percent success rate on that so far. It's a gift, or whatever, I guess.

However, guns seem to change everyone. In my experience the only way to know how someone will act around guns is to get them handling them. I thought my two buddies would be fine. The one I brought to the range has been shooting pellet guns in my back yard with me and my brother since we were about ten. We always followed range-rules even then.

Then there was the time I brought an 18 year old girl...And a typical one at that. Giggly, girly, and a bit overactive, hyper, crazy, whatever you want to call it. Like I said, typical 18 year old girl (in my experience).

She shot the .22lr Winchester we have for a bit and then wanted to shoot the AK. I fired off a few rounds to show her what it would sound like and let her finish the mag as I had already gone over the operation at home with her. She was intimidated by the sound so I held her shoulders to "brace" her but it was more of a psychological reassurance since AKs have no recoil to speak of. She fired off her first round, did that little excited/scared squeak that teenage girls do, looked back at me and went "I'm ok!" I backed off and she did her thing for the rest of our visit. Every gun she handled was always safe. She checked the chamber after every magazine, she racked the slides on all the guns that could (Well, she racked the shotgun open when not in use. The Winchester and AK don't have BHOs). All in all, very respectful and a hell of a lot of fun to shoot with. She's the only person I've taken shooting that I would take again readily.

Oh, and that bullet should have read "don't touch the guns" in order to be more specific. But I was trying to stress the trigger especially.
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Post by ninja-elbow » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:49 pm

+1 Kyle

Never had an issue taking new shooters out shooting. I also make sure to be cool too. We were all noobs once. Many of my friends and folks I took shooting say that they don't like the "mean gun guys" who yell and cut you down for being a noob. I am not like that and I still teach the basics. Stern but with a smile.

Hell, I skip most gun shows because of the dicks there. Reason I won't go to most private ranges too.
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Post by mk_ultra » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:40 pm

Some people just do not understand that a simple lapse in proper safety could cost someone their life.

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Post by jamoni » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:52 pm

I don't let them handle a firearm unless I feel comfortable that they know and understand the rules, and will follow them unfailingly. So, no, I don't have that problem. If someone questions the rules, they don't get to play.
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Post by Obiwan » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:04 pm

Two separate things

When I train I (generally) train alone

When I take newbies out I don't shoot.....I am watching them...all the freakin time
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Re: What's so hard to get??

Post by FriedCheese » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:02 pm

Rush2112 wrote:-Finger off the trigger while people are downrange.
Ah... my .02
HANDS OFF THE WEAPONS!
I cannot think of the bad things I would say if I started down range and saw someone holding a gun behind me.... really...
Lay the weapon on the deck /ground /table/ gun rack /sling it behind your back and or holster it.
Do not "handle" the weapon when a target check or the like is called.
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