.357

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Post by raptorman » Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:27 pm

Wylycoyte wrote:
multipass wrote:BUT i would have a short barreled .357 in a specialy made boot holster for any of them occasions where your boot is keeping a door closed which is being kept open by a zombie. pull the revolver from the boot/ankle holster and vow it's brains out if you in a hurry.
You could do the same with a Kel Tec .32 or .380, and it'd keep you from walking with a limp while you carried it.
Exactly, Wylycoyte. No offense to you, multipass, but leave the gun talk to the citizens, not the subjects.

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Post by Wylycoyte » Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:50 pm

Civilian Scout wrote:With an alloy-framed S&W, the weight difference would be neglible. It would, however, cost at least twice if not three times what a Kel-Tec would. And I don't have much faith in the .32 or .380 rounds.
True enough. They're larger and bulkier than the little Kel Tec autos, though, and not at all pleasant to shoot. When you dip below 9mm into the .38s and .380s, you start having to make significant sacrifices in either penetration or expansion. I have both a Kel Tec .32 and a .38 S&W bodyguard airweight. While I prefer the .38 of the 2, the Kel Tec certainly rides flatter, conceals better, and is even lighter. Its even easier to shoot, actually, as its more natural to grip the gun high on the back as opposed to the little revolver.
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Post by Civilian Scout » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:06 pm

I saw a guy shoot himself through the leg once with a .380, point blank (he was an idiot and no friend of mine), and he was actually able to stand there and say, "Fuck, that hurt!"
But I'm not calling them toys. Nobody wants to get shot with anything, and any firearm is capable of killing given the right circumstances. And I feel that almost any pistol is more comfortable to carry than even a small revolver.
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Post by Wylycoyte » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:20 pm

Honestly, that proves nothing. David DiFabio of Ammolab.com hit some fellow multiple times in the chest with a .45 and the guy sat on the steps and waited til the paramedics came. Nothing immediately vital was hit, so the guy was ambulatory and conscious the whole time.

On second thought, I suppose it does prove something after all..it adds to the growing body of evidence that handgun rounds suck, which is probably why most people who get shot by them die...of old age.
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Post by Civilian Scout » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:27 pm

It just proves that there are no guarantees, no matter what you're using. Nothing works every time.
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Post by Coal-Cracker » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:05 pm

Wylycoyte wrote:...

On second thought, I suppose it does prove something after all..it adds to the growing body of evidence that handgun rounds suck, which is probably why most people who get shot by them die...of old age.
I agree, while I wouldn't say that handgun rounds "suck" :lol: , but I would say that most people overestimate their knockdown power. Handguns were meant to be used (for protection) when a longgun wasn't available. Now obviously carrying a shotgun for personal protection wouldn't be practical, but you get my point.

Wylycoyte, I'm curious, you mentioned you hunt. (I've never hunted with a pistol so I can't make this claim. Not yet anyway.) Have you noticed a significant wound difference when you shoot a deer with your .44 mag, versus a common hunting rifle caliber like 7mm or .308? I'm guessing you have. Big difference between shooting water-filled milk jugs compared to an animal made of flesh, muscle and bone, huh? I think the comparison does a lot to help people understand ammo capabilities and limitations.

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Post by Wylycoyte » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:32 pm

Haven't got a chance to shoot a deer with the .44 yet. A nice doe ran across the road in front of the car last year on the way through the WMA, but got into the woods before I could get out and get a shot.

My dad has used a .44 lever gun on deer, though, and what seems to happen with heavy, flat point bullets is that you get a tube of destruction a little smaller than a golf ball going through the flesh. It's a pretty straight, too...whatever vector the bullet enters on is the direction it keeps going in.

.308 soft points yielded more of a turnip-shaped wound, with the bullet frequently yawing from the path of entry. Pretty classic ballistic gelatin-looking results, really.

What interested me in the .454 is that it seems to be a real "sweet spot" for penetration. A good .454 or hot-loaded .45 LC in the 325-350 grain class can frequently penetrate about 4 feet of flesh...not too useful on some game, but very nice on large critters. A .45-70 has become a caliber of interest to me for the same reason...I might steal my dad's Marlin Guide Gun yet.
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Post by Coal-Cracker » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:23 pm

Wylycoyte wrote:...
A .45-70 has become a caliber of interest to me for the same reason...I might steal my dad's Marlin Guide Gun yet.
I often considered picking up a .45-70. The Marlin Stainless is a nice looking rifle. The only thing I don't care for is the "howitzer" trajectory necessary with the .45-70. I like to use a round that doesn't require a lot of holdover. 7mm was always good because of it's flatter trajectory at longer ranges. Where I am in PA, we hunt woods and farm fields. While the woods obviously limits your range, the fields open it up to 300+ yard shots if you want to take it. The 7-pointer I harvested this year was taken offhand at 180 yards (paced off) while moving. (Yes, I'm kinda proud of that shot. :wink: )

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Post by Cricket » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:55 am

raptorman wrote:Wow people...you would actually choose six shots and a very shitty reload times over sixteen shots and fast reload times? There is a reason why us military types don't carry revolvers anymore. Personally, I say fuck the revolver, and go with modern weapons. Nostalgia is one thing, but trying to kill ten corpses with six shots is another.

-raptorman

Note: If it's all you have, then make the best of it.
It is just a gun that we use for home defense.

I've got a couple of semis, they are German P38's from WWII that my Granddad pulled off a couple of Gestapo bastards he killed when they tried to get onto his plane.

We keep them in fine condition and they still fire great.

I am putting money aside for a good 9mm pistol right now, and to finish pimping out my AK.

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Post by Wylycoyte » Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:09 am

Coal-Cracker wrote:
Wylycoyte wrote:...
A .45-70 has become a caliber of interest to me for the same reason...I might steal my dad's Marlin Guide Gun yet.
I often considered picking up a .45-70. The Marlin Stainless is a nice looking rifle. The only thing I don't care for is the "howitzer" trajectory necessary with the .45-70. I like to use a round that doesn't require a lot of holdover. 7mm was always good because of it's flatter trajectory at longer ranges. Where I am in PA, we hunt woods and farm fields. While the woods obviously limits your range, the fields open it up to 300+ yard shots if you want to take it. The 7-pointer I harvested this year was taken offhand at 180 yards (paced off) while moving. (Yes, I'm kinda proud of that shot. :wink: )
Excellent shot! I've been looking at a .270 for the same reason.

The .45-70 is more of a specialty gun that I want...a brush gun for northern states where it was possible to encounter large, dangerous game. Of course, I'd also like to get a .338 Winchester Magnum...all in good time. All in good time.
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Post by Maj.Exec » Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:34 pm

I dunno, to me, it's mostly materialistic when it come to buying a revolver. Just the look....while this statement carries no logic, that's me. Anyone else could disagree. But that being said, there are very few to no advantages that a revolver has over its semi-auto cousin-in-law. That being said, I'll stick with the .45 or .40 for my PAW use. One of these might be handy.... :)
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Post by bgaesop » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:05 pm

That looks just like the one I want to get....some day....

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Post by Civilian Scout » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:40 pm

That's exactly the sort of thing I was suggesting, Major Exec. I'd opt for one of the alloy-framed .357s with a concealed hammer. I think that would be a very handy thing to have. They're small, only weigh 12 ounces, fire two very common rounds, and just might save your ass someday. A .45 will always be the first handgun I reach for, but a little revolver like that can be a nice bit of insurance. And, contrary to what Raptorman may think, I can afford to carry 12 more ounces and give up a pocket to carry it in.
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Post by Maj.Exec » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:39 pm

Yeah, don't get me rolled up into that but yeah, I'd be willing to sacrafice that weight for a reasonalbly popular calliber.
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Post by Bear_B » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:59 am

The most effective handgun round on the market - regardless of caliber - is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint (357B). This load has more stopping power than any other handgun bullet (and this includes more powerful rounds like the .41 and .44 Magnums). I advise all experienced revolver men to carry the legendary Federal 357B in a .357 revolver, or the equally good Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint (R357M1).

There is one caveat, however. The 357B and other full-power .357 Magnums have a lot of blast and kick. If you are not comfortable with the buck and roar of full-house .357 Magnums, I would strongly suggest that you use a lower-recoil round. Controllability is important, and you will be able to fire lower-recoil rounds more rapidly and accurately. All of these .357 loads have excellent stopping power, so don't worry that you are giving up too much.

In descending order of severity of recoil (i.e. the Silvertip kicks the most) I recommend the Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP (X357SHP), The Remington Golden Saber 125 grain JHP (GS357MA), Federal 110 gr. JHP (357D), Remington Medium Velocity 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollowpoint (R357M11) and the Cor-Bon 115 grain JHP. The latter two are excellent rounds I strongly recommend for .357 Magnum 2.5" and 3" barrel snub-nose revolvers like the S&W Models 66, 19, 65, 13, the Colt King Cobra, the Ruger GP100 and especially the small-frame Ruger SP101. If you still find that your .357 kicks too much, carry the Cor-Bon .38 Special+P 115 grain JHP discussed above. Two or three hits with good .38+P slugs beat any number of misses with .357 slugs.

Note well: if you are using the factory wood stocks on your S&W or Taurus .357 revolver, you are a fool. Ruger and Colt .357 Magnums come factory-equipped with recoil-absorbing ergodynamic rubber grips, and I have no idea why S&W and Taurus continue to put wood grips on their .357 revolvers. The difference in control is enormous. Get some good, compact rubber grips from Uncle Mike's or Pachmayr and slap them onto your .357 revolver ASAP. I used to cringe every time I fired a full-power load in my .357 Magnum snub-nose. Once I put some compact Pachmayr grips on it, however, I had no problem firing the 357B accurately and rapidly. These grips only cost twenty bucks. Buy some.)

Other good .357 Magnum loads.

The 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints by Cor-Bon, Winchester, and CCI are all good stoppers. The CCI Blazer 125 grain jacketed hollow-point is a very good buy, both for practice and self-defense use. The 110 grain jacketed hollowpoints by Winchester, CCI and Remington are all good for use in snub-nose revolvers, or for those sensitive to recoil. You never go wrong with a 110-125 grain .357 jacketed hollowpoint from the Big Five. All are great stoppers.

Crappy .357 Magnum loads you should not carry for self-defense.

Never carry soft-points, semi-wadcutters, or any of the 158 grain or 180 grain jacketed hollowpoints - these are solely for hunting or target use. Stick to jacketed hollowpoints under 150 grains in weight. The heavier bullets kick heavily and will shoot high and confuse you. All-lead bullets are okay for practice but you will have to spend twice as long cleaning your gun. And stay the hell away from the bizarre and idiotic Remington "Multi-Ball" (R357MB) - I have no idea what they were thinking when they created this worthless gimmick load.
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Post by Joe Ghoul » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:51 pm

RealityDeviant wrote:
Joe Ghoul wrote:I have one of those Taurus 8 shot .357s.
What do you think of those, anyway? I haven't heard much about them save for an objection raised by some competition shooters about the weak crane and yoke assembly.
I saw the same articles mentioning this problem. One of the major gun rags tried to use it for some defensive pistol competitions. However, they were the only source of any bad reviews on it.

I enjoy the hell out of it. A very pleasant gun to shoot. Its my 'fun pistol'.

As far as the whole auto vs wheel gun debate?

I just received a GLOCK 17 for Xmas. That's what goes in my bugout kit. While I think a revolver is still relevant for home security and even EDC, I want something with a little more firepower and a faster reload time if I'm hauling ass beng pursued by hordes of the undead. I held off getting a full sized GLOCK for awhile, but the research won me over. Durable as hell, there's a shit-ton of parts available, and (finally) hi-cap mags can be found easily.

That being said, I think everyone should still learn to shoot with a revolver. Its like being able to drive a stick. You'd rather know how to do it and not need to, then vice versa. I've got the .357 and a .38, and love shooting both.

However, when the dead start to rise, a good 9mm is the way to go. I realize that 1 shot 1 kill is not really going to be happening with handguns in close quarters situations. So, if I get into '3 shots, 1 kill' situations, I want something with a hell of a lot more than 6 or 8 rounds.

If you really want to start talking long term, post SHTF stuff, a revolver might have an edge in durability and ease of maintenance. But, that's an open debate when you put a wheel gun against some of the more durable, reliable autos, like GLOCK or Ruger's P series.
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Case for revolvers

Post by PistolPete » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:43 pm

I tend to be a revolver guy, so I'm biased. I just seem to shoot revolvers better than semi-auto pistols, not sure why, so I migrate towards them.

Taking bias away, keeping a .357 magnum in one's BOB is a decent idea. A revolver can be kept loaded, permanantly, without weakening of the magazine spring ('cause there isn't one!)

As mentioned, many revolvers can effectively use two types of ammo, 44mag can use 44special, 357 can use 38 special, 22LR can use 22 longs and shorts, 32magnum can use 32longs.

If you experience a failure to fire, due to cheap ammo or whatever, in a revolver you can pull the trigger again to cycle to the next chamber. Now, some semi-autos have a second strike capability, but if the round is truly bad, that won't help. You will have to manually clear the chamber.

It may be worthwhile to ask how many people have had a semi-auto pistol fail to fire, or fail to feed, for any reason, and what it took to render it operational again. I have experienced a variety of failures in different semi-autos (never my HK, though) for different reasons. Murphy says this will happen at the worst possible time, too! :D

I like a semi auto for offence, and a revolver for defense.

My two cents..........
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Post by Bear_B » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:27 pm

PistolPete makes some valid points about the reliability of a quality revolver, and the fact it can be stored for long periods of time with no advserse effects.

There was a story published about a ranch hand who had a SW REvolver in a holster and left the belt, holster, and gun hanging on a fence post while repairing fence.

The feller later looked for his gun but had no idea what he did with it.

Winter came and winter went... the follwing year the same ranch hand was riding the fence line in his pickup truck looking for any fence repair that was needed and found his gun.

The belt and holster was ruined.... but the stainless SW .357 was unharmed in any way. It hung out there for months. Even the ammo functioned. He took it home... cleaned it with brake cleaner... lubed it up and it went right back into service.

The gun was a stainless Smith and Wesson model 66 .357 Magnum with a 4 inch barrel.

Also keep in mind that the Fastest Shooter in the world shoots a S&W Revolver.

I shoot two different matches every month, and there are a number of guys there with revolvers... and quite honestly the guys who shoot revolvers may have a VERY slight disadvantage in reloading time, but have always, always, always the higher scores in accuracy.

Revolvers are inherantly more reliable, and more accurate than autos.

But here is the catch... (and there is ALWAYS a catch isnt there?)

They are much more difficult to master.

For example if you are a brand new shooter, and you start shooting with a dedicated practice schedule, in six months you would be much better with an auto than you would with a revolver.

HOWEVER... in a years time... or two years time... the revolver gunner will find himself to be more accuate, and just as fast.

So as you can see... its a trade off.

You may have less rounds with a revolver (and keep in mind you can get a .357 in an 8 round model)... but once you master it, you will find yourself needed LESS rounds to be placed on target to stop a threat.

And by the way... a really good revolver gunner can reload a revolver with a speed loader in around 3 seconds... an average (but practiced) revolver gunner can do it in 5 seconds.... which you will find to be very close to what an auto reload takes for the person with the same level of skill.

I personally have carried a Glock 19 now for several years. I decided to give something new a try, and am now carrying an XD 5 inch Tactical model.

I LOVE my XD... but honestly the 5 inch model is a bit weighty to carry, and a bit long. Im trying to make myself like it but my Glock is calling my name.

A buddy of mine wants to buy my Glock and I told him I would sell it to him... but in all honesty I am going to take the money and go right back out and buy me a new Glock 19. (I want OD Model).

If you like revolvers, and shoot well with them, then by God MASTER the revolver. You will be a force to contend with.

But if you are not going to put into a revolver the time, and practice it takes to become proficient with it, better of to go with a simple auto like a Glock, or XD. A little practice goes a longer way on an auto than a revolver.
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Post by jamoni » Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:48 pm

One great reason to keep a revolver is when outfitting noobs. Instead of showing them how to do a function check, show them where the bullets go and where the trigger is. Also, if you don't practice as much as you should, there are less operations to fumble. and it pisses off Raptorman.
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Post by Goldor » Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:03 pm

Jamoni wrote:One great reason to keep a revolver is when outfitting noobs. Instead of showing them how to do a function check, show them where the bullets go and where the trigger is. Also, if you don't practice as much as you should, there are less operations to fumble. and it pisses off Raptorman.
Well Revolvers are fine.. I just perfer My autos.. I like my 1911 and my brand new 24/7 Tarus.. Nice Gun :).. Shot it a bit the other day and Found I rather like it for a 9mm :).

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Post by Bear_B » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:05 am

Goldor wrote:
Jamoni wrote:One great reason to keep a revolver is when outfitting noobs. Instead of showing them how to do a function check, show them where the bullets go and where the trigger is. Also, if you don't practice as much as you should, there are less operations to fumble. and it pisses off Raptorman.
Well Revolvers are fine.. I just perfer My autos.. I like my 1911 and my brand new 24/7 Tarus.. Nice Gun :).. Shot it a bit the other day and Found I rather like it for a 9mm :).
Taurus does make a pretty decent pistol.
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Post by ednemo » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:34 am

I have carries lots of guns over the years and eventually traded in all of my autos for revolvers. My 8 shot 357s can be reloaded insanely fast with moon clips, and the brass can be ejected into a pouch for reloads in an emergency situation. The 357 is also very versatile and rounds can be easily found all over the place, especially at crappy little woodsy hunting fishing stores in the middle of nowhere...not many 45s out there. Every weapon has its place. I would prefer a P90 for armored targets, 12ga for close up threats, and a Barrett .50 for taking out cars from a distance. But if I wanted an accurate handgun, I would go with a revolver. And 357 is versatile.

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Post by joerwinn » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:09 am

The .357 recoil actually depends on the frame the gun is built on. If you get one you want a heavy frame pistol. The debate is the length of the barrel. The longer the barrel the more acurate the pistol will be however it will have far more recoil. I was a .357 purist for many years until i came across the .45 cal EA witness. If anyone else has fired this pistol you all know what i am talking about. Another thing to consider is the fact that 90% of the .357 on the market are revolvers. Longer reload times than an automatic. the other 10% are automatics but are very pricey. The .357 desert eagle is the top of the line for auto .357's. If you go for a revolver dont forget the speed loaders for it!

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Post by Norseman » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:26 pm

ednemo wrote:...the brass can be ejected into a pouch for reloads in an emergency situation...And 357 is versatile.
These two points are actually good arguments for someone using a wheelgun if they are set-up to reload and are using the gun for subsistence hunting as well as for protection in a SHTF situation. In addition to the many loadings for .357, a revolver can also fire "shot-shells" for pest and snake control in your AO. It's a good tool.
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