shotgun 12ga vs 20ga

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shotgun 12ga vs 20ga

Post by Roknrandy » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:23 pm

I've fired a mossberg 500 12ga for the past 15 years and really don't like the kick that much, How's the 20ga compare (recoil) to the 12 using 2-3/4" shells (just for target and home defense)? :?

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Post by cougar » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:09 pm

prbably half the recoil in the 20 gauge. My wife uses the mossy 20 to shoot skeet and likes it, she shoots 100 to 125 clays with me. She does not end up with the bruising and sore shoulder like the 12 gives her.
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Post by Roknrandy » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:56 pm

Thanks cougar, I'm looking at trading the 12 in for a 20. I knew it was less recoil but wan't sure how much. Around half as much sounds good to me.

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Post by cougar » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:06 pm

you could always try reducded recoil shells before you trade.
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Post by TheBlunderbuss » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:18 pm

As for home defense -- I wouldn't want to get hit with a 20ga slug any more than I would a 12ga.

Plus, an intruder wouldn't think about the difference. All they know is they have a SHOTGUN in their face.

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Post by Rus » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:10 am

I'm surprised no one has yet posted the box o' truth article on the 20 gauge.

Short answer: with slug or buckshot the 20 gauge doesn't seem a bad choice.
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Post by Roknrandy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:18 am

Thanks for the link Rus, It answers a lot of questions.

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Post by doc66 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:36 am

I read through the article and the problem I saw was the use of the double barrel in the test... I have to ask what the choke was on those old barrels? I imagine that the choke was NOT condusive to a slug, and that was some of the reason for the poor accuracy and the breaking up of the slug before full penatration.

I'd feel more comfortable if they had found a Mossy in 20 for a side by side.

I recall an article (which I'm searching for) in Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement where they took a Remington Youth 20 gauge and spiffed it up for the patrol car female. Synthetic stocks, shorter barrel and all that and they had better results with it.

Personally, since I have shotgun or two in everything but 28 and 10 gauge, I'd feel comfortable using all but my .410 as a defensive weapon, but then, I do have 000 buck for the .410 as well!

Also, I'd stay away from the reduced loads myself, I know that they get good press in the gun rags, but they don't function well in the semi-autos and the paterning in the ones I've shot have been inconsistant. They use them at the State run training facility and had many problems with them at first. They buy them by the semi truck load. They're good training rounds, I guess, but really, what's the point? If your a sissy for the standard 2 3/4 shell, then step down to a 16 or 20 is my opinion.

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Post by Gunny » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:39 am

doc66 wrote:I read through the article and the problem I saw was the use of the double barrel in the test... I have to ask what the choke was on those old barrels? I imagine that the choke was NOT condusive to a slug, and that was some of the reason for the poor accuracy and the breaking up of the slug before full penatration.
Doc: For the most part, older SxS shotguns were either open bore (cylinder) or what we consider 'modified' today. I think you might be on the money with why the slugs were inaccurate. Normally, out of a proper barrel (nonribbed, cylinder choked) you can get a 1-2' group at 100y without trying too terribly much.

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Post by doc66 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:49 am

Gunny wrote:
doc66 wrote:I read through the article and the problem I saw was the use of the double barrel in the test... I have to ask what the choke was on those old barrels? I imagine that the choke was NOT condusive to a slug, and that was some of the reason for the poor accuracy and the breaking up of the slug before full penatration.
Doc: For the most part, older SxS shotguns were either open bore (cylinder) or what we consider 'modified' today. I think you might be on the money with why the slugs were inaccurate. Normally, out of a proper barrel (nonribbed, cylinder choked) you can get a 1-2' group at 100y without trying too terribly much.
Yep. At the OPOTA range (State training grounds) I took a 14 inch Remington and was hitting head shot steel plates with the rifle sights at that range, once I figured out the drop, it was very fun! :D 8)

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Post by randomusername » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:39 am

It's good to see that test, the Maverick they used is virtually my shotgun, cool to see it tested :)

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Post by Dr Tran » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:55 pm

When your in close distance the difference between 20ga and 12ga isn't going to matter. It is far more important that you can feel comfortable shooting and can shoot multiple times without issues. So if after two full tubes of 12ga your shoulder is black and blue, switch to the 20ga. I use a big ass 870 with 2 3/4 '' shells, so its not bad. But if i were using something shorter with no stock, i'd rather have a 20ga.

If you have any second thoughts, put a scarecrow up, walk backards, turn around, and shoot the thing with 20ga. Post results, especially if you used some sort of fruit for the body.
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Post by doc66 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:28 pm

At close range I agree... of course you and always just get one of these

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976672371.htm

I think those are so cool. Ever since El Dorado, Mad Max, and every other flick where they make those things look easy to use.

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Post by TheBlunderbuss » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:06 am

doc66 wrote:I think those are so cool. Ever since El Dorado...
Heck yes.
Hell yes.
Fuck yes.

That is my movie.

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Post by orphan40 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:27 pm

I've got a youth model 20g 870 express magnum that I still love to shoot. Many a dove and squirrel have fallen to that gun. It only stands hip high with a ribbed barrel and interchangable chokes. That gun is the balls. I'm thinking about getting an extended magazine tube and a pistol grip synthetic stock and forearm. That'd be the ultimate in home defense with some 00 buck shot.
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Post by Gunny » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:12 pm

The only thing you're missing out on with a 20 vs a 12 is a bit of range, and a bit of flexibility when it comes to varied loads. Other than that, they're fairly similar.

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Post by kyle reese » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Orphan 40:

OO buckshot is not available in 20ga. The highest sizes are #2 and the much more common #3. The 2.75in loads are way more available than the 3in.

According to one prominent professional ammo testing outfit that posts over at Gabe Suarez's warriortalk.com, the 3" #2 load is the most effective.

However, for a compact light HD type indoor or "out around in the yard type ranges of the house" self defense shotgun, I think the 2.75in loads are no problem at all, IF....

you use some type of plated shot, i.e. Rem's nickel plated or Fed's copper plated premium. Less pellet deformation via the action of firing, and better penetration via a harder projectile than bare soft lead. This last point is particularly important as the #3 projectiles are already on the small and light side, so any help w/ penetration is a value in this loading.

I too have owned two of the Rem 870 Youth magnum 20s. both w/ 20' barrels, Choate mag extensions (8rd), 4rd Hunter sidesaddles, YOUTH LOP, etc. Very nice weapons for sure. However....

I am switching to the Mossberg 6shot 20ga persuader. It is built on a 12gauge dimension frame. Why, since the Rem 20s handle so nice with the smaller frame?

Because I am running an ATI top folding stock on it. I know ATI says their products can be modded to work on the 20 size frames, but the fit is perfect on the Moss 12frame, and the Moss product is available w/ an 18in barrel. A fixed cylinder choke is no problem and even desirable for the across the room distances in my spacious home, or around my autos when I am traveling in them should someone attempt a car jacking when getting the F out of Dodge.

One thing I have learned is that the 12 gives you RANGE with buckshot over the 20, that is the primary difference. The larger 00 and 000 shot in the common 12 loads requires fewer pellets to hit at range and hit with more power individually over the 20ga type loads, thus extending effective range. Of course, it still does nothing about shot pattern size, which will limit the range of any buckshot weapon regardless of gauge.

If I need more range outside of the home when I find myself carrying a 20ga, I will switch to the nice shooting 5/8 oz. Remington Sluggers. I have shot many whitetails with them and if you make a good hit they work just fine. I imagine they will do for our rap fueled gangsta 'zombies' out to 50yds as well.

If you run a bead sight on your 20, look into getting an XS Sights epoxy mounted tritium/white standard or big dot for your gun.

A flashlight is mandatory.

With the 20 I have no worries about shooting the Mossberg at very close range (ECQB) with the stock folded. If I have the time to pick up the gun and walk out of my bedroom I will simply unfold it as space permits. Same goes for in or around the car.

Hope this helps all out there who are thinking of taking the 20gauge trip over all the 12gauge propaganda as the only choice in effective shotguns out there. If you really get in tune with what you need in your scenarios, the 20 may just be the very best choice. It is for me.

AND LASTLY: I AM REQUESTING THAT THE MODERATORS OF ZS FORUMS REMOVE THE SIGNATURE LINE OF MEMBER ORPHAN THAT MENTIONS ASKING HIM ABOUT "MICROWAVING CATS FOR FUN AND PROFIT". IF THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE I AM REQUESTING THAT HE BE BANNED.

I FIND THE COMMENT NOT ONLY IN POOR TASTE, BUT INIDICATIVE OF AT BEST AN INCREDIBLY SICK SENSE OF 'HUMOR' AND AT WORST A MAJOR SIGN OF SOCIOPATHIC LACK OF EMPATHY.

I REALIZE SOME MEMBERS ATTEMPT AND ACHIEVE FRIENDLY LAUGHS WITH THE MEMBERSHIP AT LARGE VIA THEIR SIGNATURE LINES, BUT ORPHAN'S WRITING IS DISGUSTING TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY KINDNESS OR FEELINGS FOR HELPLESS ANIMALS.

I HAVE DEALT WITH PREDATORY CHILD MINDED MONSTERS WHO HAVE TORTURED AND MUTILATED ANIMALS FOR THEIR OWN DEMONIC AND COLD HEARTED ENTERTAINMENT AND IT HAS BEEN ONLY THE REALIZATION THAT I WOULD GO TO PRISON THAT HAS KEPT ME FROM DOING THE SAME TYPES OF HORRORS TO THEM.

EVERY GOOD HEARTED PERSON ON THE ZS BOARD IS OWED AN ANSWER FROM THE MODS ON THE MATTER OF ORPHANS CALLOUS AND DISGUSTING SIGNATURE LINE.

I AM IMPRESSED VERY MUCH WITH THIS COMMUNITY AND SPEND MANY HOURS READING AND THINKING OVER THE COLLECTIVE WISDOM, WHILE POSTING VERY CAREFULLY.

I AM SICKENED TO BE PARTICIPATING IN A PLACE WHERE A MEMBER CAN POST SUCH A THING AND BE TOLERATED.

EVEN WRITING SUCH THINGS IN "JEST" IS WHERE THE HUMAN POS' IN THIS WORLD GET THE IDEA TO TRY SUCH THINGS FOR THEMSELVES.

ORPHAN, you are a sick juvenile minded person, and for your callousness, even in 'jest' I hope someone near you puts you in a microwave soon and asks you how you like it.[/u]
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Post by Gunny » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:11 pm

kyle reese wrote:Orphan 40:

OO buckshot is not available in 20ga. The highest sizes are #2 and the much more common #3. The 2.75in loads are way more available than the 3in.

According to one prominent professional ammo testing outfit that posts over at Gabe Suarez's warriortalk.com, the 3" #2 load is the most effective.

However, for a compact light HD type indoor or "out around in the yard type ranges of the house" self defense shotgun, I think the 2.75in loads are no problem at all, IF....

you use some type of plated shot, i.e. Rem's nickel plated or Fed's copper plated premium. Less pellet deformation via the action of firing, and better penetration via a harder projectile than bare soft lead. This last point is particularly important as the #3 projectiles are already on the small and light side, so any help w/ penetration is a value in this loading.

I too have owned two of the Rem 870 Youth magnum 20s. both w/ 20' barrels, Choate mag extensions (8rd), 4rd Hunter sidesaddles, YOUTH LOP, etc. Very nice weapons for sure. However....

I am switching to the Mossberg 6shot 20ga persuader. It is built on a 12gauge dimension frame. Why, since the Rem 20s handle so nice with the smaller frame?

Because I am running an ATI top folding stock on it. I know ATI says their products can be modded to work on the 20 size frames, but the fit is perfect on the Moss 12frame, and the Moss product is available w/ an 18in barrel. A fixed cylinder choke is no problem and even desirable for the across the room distances in my spacious home, or around my autos when I am traveling in them should someone attempt a car jacking when getting the F out of Dodge.

One thing I have learned is that the 12 gives you RANGE with buckshot over the 20, that is the primary difference. The larger 00 and 000 shot in the common 12 loads requires fewer pellets to hit at range and hit with more power individually over the 20ga type loads, thus extending effective range. Of course, it still does nothing about shot pattern size, which will limit the range of any buckshot weapon regardless of gauge.

If I need more range outside of the home when I find myself carrying a 20ga, I will switch to the nice shooting 5/8 oz. Remington Sluggers. I have shot many whitetails with them and if you make a good hit they work just fine. I imagine they will do for our rap fueled gangsta 'zombies' out to 50yds as well.

If you run a bead sight on your 20, look into getting an XS Sights epoxy mounted tritium/white standard or big dot for your gun.

A flashlight is mandatory.

With the 20 I have no worries about shooting the Mossberg at very close range (ECQB) with the stock folded. If I have the time to pick up the gun and walk out of my bedroom I will simply unfold it as space permits. Same goes for in or around the car.

Hope this helps all out there who are thinking of taking the 20gauge trip over all the 12gauge propaganda as the only choice in effective shotguns out there. If you really get in tune with what you need in your scenarios, the 20 may just be the very best choice. It is for me.

AND LASTLY: I AM REQUESTING THAT THE MODERATORS OF ZS FORUMS REMOVE THE SIGNATURE LINE OF MEMBER ORPHAN THAT MENTIONS ASKING HIM ABOUT "MICROWAVING CATS FOR FUN AND PROFIT". IF THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE I AM REQUESTING THAT HE BE BANNED.

I FIND THE COMMENT NOT ONLY IN POOR TASTE, BUT INIDICATIVE OF AT BEST AN INCREDIBLY SICK SENSE OF 'HUMOR' AND AT WORST A MAJOR SIGN OF SOCIOPATHIC LACK OF EMPATHY.

I REALIZE SOME MEMBERS ATTEMPT AND ACHIEVE FRIENDLY LAUGHS WITH THE MEMBERSHIP AT LARGE VIA THEIR SIGNATURE LINES, BUT ORPHAN'S WRITING IS DISGUSTING TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY KINDNESS OR FEELINGS FOR HELPLESS ANIMALS.

I HAVE DEALT WITH PREDATORY CHILD MINDED MONSTERS WHO HAVE TORTURED AND MUTILATED ANIMALS FOR THEIR OWN DEMONIC AND COLD HEARTED ENTERTAINMENT AND IT HAS BEEN ONLY THE REALIZATION THAT I WOULD GO TO PRISON THAT HAS KEPT ME FROM DOING THE SAME TYPES OF HORRORS TO THEM.

EVERY GOOD HEARTED PERSON ON THE ZS BOARD IS OWED AN ANSWER FROM THE MODS ON THE MATTER OF ORPHANS CALLOUS AND DISGUSTING SIGNATURE LINE.

I AM IMPRESSED VERY MUCH WITH THIS COMMUNITY AND SPEND MANY HOURS READING AND THINKING OVER THE COLLECTIVE WISDOM, WHILE POSTING VERY CAREFULLY.

I AM SICKENED TO BE PARTICIPATING IN A PLACE WHERE A MEMBER CAN POST SUCH A THING AND BE TOLERATED.

EVEN WRITING SUCH THINGS IN "JEST" IS WHERE THE HUMAN POS' IN THIS WORLD GET THE IDEA TO TRY SUCH THINGS FOR THEMSELVES.

ORPHAN, you are a sick juvenile minded person, and for your callousness, even in 'jest' I hope someone near you puts you in a microwave soon and asks you how you like it.[/u]
I'm more apt to give YOU an asshat for calling a member a piece of shit. If you have an issue with a member, take it up with them, or send the mods a PM. Posts like this are not condusive to the functional society of equals we strive for here.

His signature doesn't break any of our forum rules, so I have no problem with it. Next time, leave the moderating up to the moderators, that's why we get paid the big bucks.

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Post by Woods Walker » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:42 pm

kyle reese

Wow..........


On the topic.

Get a Rem 870. The best pump going and solid steel reciever. The precived recole of a shot gun is more based on the load. I mean you can shoot trap all day with 12 ga and be just fine. Some 3-inch Mags then you will feel it. 12 ga is the most common and in a Bug out it should be the easiest to find...Maybe....
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Post by One Of None » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:19 pm

kyle reese wrote: EVEN WRITING SUCH THINGS IN "JEST" IS WHERE THE HUMAN POS' IN THIS WORLD GET THE IDEA TO TRY SUCH THINGS FOR THEMSELVES.
[/u][/b]
Kyle reese didn't call orphan a POS, unless he did microwave a cat, in which case he would be calling him one.

In theory his sigline is against forum rules.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=968


1.) No discussion of illegal activities as a viable option.
We do not condone murder or theft or explosives so we do not appreciate them being promoted on our boards. Other illicit activities are also verboten, but these are the ones most often brought up.

Microwaving cats for fun and profit would be an illegal activity. Not the same as "ask me about making silencers for fun and profit", but still illegal.

But then again, I broke forum rules by posting this.... :oops:

4.) Stay topical.
This just keeps everything easier to read. Yes, things do veer from the first post on a regular basis, but if you think you’ve wandered too far aground feel free to start a new topic.
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Post by Gunny » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:24 pm

Think of the rules of ZS as the US's constitution. It's up for interpretation by the US Supreme Court.

In a sense, the mods/admins act in a manner befitting the Supreme Court's Justices. We interpret the rules as they pertain to particular situations and I should note, our decisions are always open for contestion.

Besides, we kind of dig the black robes and gavels ;)

Enough about that, back on topic.

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Post by kyle » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:36 am

Guys, lets get this thread back on topic.

kyle reese, if you or anyone else has a complaint about a user, PM a moderator privately and it will be delt with, as glockinmypocket has done already. Don't be a dick and derail a topic. Especially with big annoying dramatic "look at me!!" text. That's irritating.

Also, get a grip.

If anyone else has anything to say that is not related to shotguns (which is what this thread is about) take it to a PM.

Thanks.
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Post by orphan40 » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:10 pm

kyle reese wrote:
AND LASTLY: I AM REQUESTING THAT THE MODERATORS OF ZS FORUMS REMOVE THE SIGNATURE LINE OF MEMBER ORPHAN THAT MENTIONS ASKING HIM ABOUT "MICROWAVING CATS FOR FUN AND PROFIT". IF THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE I AM REQUESTING THAT HE BE BANNED.

I FIND THE COMMENT NOT ONLY IN POOR TASTE, BUT INIDICATIVE OF AT BEST AN INCREDIBLY SICK SENSE OF 'HUMOR' AND AT WORST A MAJOR SIGN OF SOCIOPATHIC LACK OF EMPATHY.

I REALIZE SOME MEMBERS ATTEMPT AND ACHIEVE FRIENDLY LAUGHS WITH THE MEMBERSHIP AT LARGE VIA THEIR SIGNATURE LINES, BUT ORPHAN'S WRITING IS DISGUSTING TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY KINDNESS OR FEELINGS FOR HELPLESS ANIMALS.

I HAVE DEALT WITH PREDATORY CHILD MINDED MONSTERS WHO HAVE TORTURED AND MUTILATED ANIMALS FOR THEIR OWN DEMONIC AND COLD HEARTED ENTERTAINMENT AND IT HAS BEEN ONLY THE REALIZATION THAT I WOULD GO TO PRISON THAT HAS KEPT ME FROM DOING THE SAME TYPES OF HORRORS TO THEM.

EVERY GOOD HEARTED PERSON ON THE ZS BOARD IS OWED AN ANSWER FROM THE MODS ON THE MATTER OF ORPHANS CALLOUS AND DISGUSTING SIGNATURE LINE.

I AM IMPRESSED VERY MUCH WITH THIS COMMUNITY AND SPEND MANY HOURS READING AND THINKING OVER THE COLLECTIVE WISDOM, WHILE POSTING VERY CAREFULLY.

I AM SICKENED TO BE PARTICIPATING IN A PLACE WHERE A MEMBER CAN POST SUCH A THING AND BE TOLERATED.

EVEN WRITING SUCH THINGS IN "JEST" IS WHERE THE HUMAN POS' IN THIS WORLD GET THE IDEA TO TRY SUCH THINGS FOR THEMSELVES.

ORPHAN, you are a sick juvenile minded person, and for your callousness, even in 'jest' I hope someone near you puts you in a microwave soon and asks you how you like it.[/u]

Wow. Someone can't take a joke. And that's what it is...a JOKE. The insinuation that someone could make money (eg the 'profit' part) by microwaving cats is part that tips it off. While that is a hilarious statement, I wish I could take credit for it. I read it on a bumper sticker one day. I suppose it would be funnier if I had the picture of a kitten beside it. Of course I would not microwave a cat just for fun. That's just silly.<--Joking...get it?

You obviously have a lot of time on your hands as to write a 3 page essay on the deformation of buck shot and to make parrallels of me to a 'monster'. Why don't you do something constructive with that time such as googling "humor" or volunteer for an animal rescue agency if you like them so damned much.

The fact that you have called for my banning and for someone to put me in a microwave makes me hope someone near you bans you and puts you in a microwave. (See how that works both ways?) Also, I have made the determination by just reading this post that you suffer from inadequecy issues brought on by childhood abandonment and unreturned love by your mother. Were you breast feed? Probably not.

Yes, I am very juvenile minded person. We can not all be born a 73 year old grand father as I am sure you have been all your life. Are you considering the fact that you are posting on a message board devoted to the protection and survival of the human race against ZOMBIE attacks? While there is a ton of information on this site and 99% is applicable to real world occurances, you still have to take into account the whole concept that this board is predicated upon.

In sumation, you just could have simply asked me to change my signature and I would've done so. I will only change it because Gunny brought it to my attention. Might I add that he did do with the PM function that you have full and unfettered access to.

Enjoy the new sig!




Oh yeah, shotguns are mother effin awesome and it's 'orphan40'...Mr. O if you're nasty.
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Post by kyle » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:29 pm

Orphan40, I agree with you but you get an "asshat". Did you not see my post above yous?

Please, take this back on topic, fellas. It's not a suggestion.
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