Home Defense Choices

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Stercutus
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Home Defense Choices

Post by Stercutus » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:41 pm

A friend of a family member has an small array of guns and was curious what the best choices were for HD. The "home" is small apartment shared by several 20-something year old men. He is 21 and in excellent physical shape. He can't afford another gun right now.

His choices are:
- S&W Shield 9mm
- SKS Rifle, full size stock.
- Remington 7400 .30-06 Rifle. For some reason he has 10 round magazines for this rifle. It also has a Blackhawk after market stock.
- Ruger 10/22, He has factory 25 round magazines for this rifle and TAPCO stock :lol: .

I told him just to go with the pistol and not worry about. It occurred to me later he might be better off with the 10/22 and the pistol.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by woodsghost » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:13 pm

I originally went with a shotgun and 00 Buck to keep over penetration down in an apartment. There is only so much one can "avoid over penetration" before one "is just tickling them." So 00 Buck seemed like a good compromise.

I have recently bought into the idea that a pistol is sometimes better for apartment defense because of very tight corners and difficult to manage halls/doors. So currently I have a pistol for the apartment. A .357, because I want to reduce over penetration....I might have some holes in some of my logic ....

But seriously, at my old place I could not manage a long gun in the entry way because it was about 4 feet wide and took a 90* turn at the entrence. There was no room for a shotgun and myself in the entryway. My previous 3 were like that.

Now I have a better setup for a shotgun defense but my daughter is getting bigger so a revolver on a higher self in a retention holster and with a heavy trigger is what I am running. Until I get a usable safe in a few months.

So if your friend gets kids in the apartment my full response could be useful. But my basic point is the layout may dictate which is better.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by flybynight » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:53 pm

Pistol. More easy to maneuver in tight spaces, Better retention if in a hand to hand scuffle. Adequate ballistics with less chance of overpenetration. Only option for concealment when checking on a possible threat, without old man Smithers (your next door neighbor) going to the ER after he knocked on your door late at night for sugar
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by boskone » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Pistol. Smaller, handier, and against your average burglar sufficient. Also, I'd hazard that if it comes to blows your average joe will be able to pistol-whip someone more effectively than they could use a longarm.

If there's an Academy convenient-ish to him, he might try putting a few bucks a month back and and get a Mossberg 88 for like $190.

(Oh, there's a "combo" package with 18" and 28" barrels for $220. If I had a need for a 12ga pump, especially a beater to leave at a hunting cabin or some such, that'd be tempting.)

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by woodsghost » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:21 am

Does the SKS have a bayonet? Because that might change my answer. It depends on if it is the Sword type or the Spike type.

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by emclean » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:57 am

of those choices the pistol is the best of the lot.

the 10/22 isn't a big round to be reliable at stopping a threat quickly, the other rifles have IMO too likely a chance of going through too many walls.

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by MacWa77ace » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:16 am

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:41 pm
It occurred to me later he might be better off with the 10/22 and the pistol.

What do you guys think?
Change the 10/22 to a couple extra pistol mags [its a Shield] and maybe add a tactical light when clearing your apartment.

Are the roommates going to be part of the home defense team or just this guy?

IMO the best home defense gun is the one you can get to in 1.5 seconds or less. And when I say get to, I mean its ready to fire, you don't have to unlock or load or charge first.

Not sure how that would work in an apartment situation like that, which at one point i lived in a similar situation, and i know its not only the guys that live there but the friends, and friends of friends, that are in and out. So security and safety strategies would be just as important as weapon selection.

He should lock up the long guns and CC the handgun when at home. And lock everything up when he leaves if he doesn't have a CWL. And as always, be very familiar with the laws of self defense in his AO.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by raptor » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:35 pm

This with a caveat
IMO the best home defense gun is the one you can get to in 1.5 seconds or less. And when I say get to, I mean its ready to fire, you don't have to unlock or load or charge first.
What is he used to shooting and what does he shoot well both with 2 hands and 1 hand.

The other issue is multiple 20 something room mates. They need to be factored into the plan. Either as assistance, risks or unintentional backstops/bullet sumps.

On the face of it the Ruger 10/22 is not a bad choice if he does not shoot a lot. He can get in a lot of practice cheap with .22lr. It is however IMO long and too easy to grab in a close quarter scuffle so I agree it not ideal. But still 20 rounds of .22lr into an attacker at "how do you do" range is going to get their attention.

The Remington 7400 with the 10 round extension is not going feed reliably with more than 5 rounds and not at all if you load 10....at least mine did not. YMMV.

The SKS has the size disadvantage as the 10/22 with a round that will likely whizz through an attacker and the apartment next door.

That leaves the 9mm pistol. Ammo for that is cheap (not as cheap as .22lr but still cheap). If he will practice enough with it to become proficient with it that is the one by default that I would suggest.

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by TacAir » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:42 pm

This stood out to me

He can't afford another gun right now.

Maybe a few more cans of chow might be a better choice.

"Multiple roommates' is another red flag for having weapons in the house.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by RonnyRonin » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 am

TacAir wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:42 pm
He can't afford another gun right now.

Maybe a few more cans of chow might be a better choice.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting; that he sell a gun? He already has these, so they don't cost him anything.



Pistol hands down. An SKS was my go to for awhile and it was complete clownshoes indoors. Beyond any ballistic arguments around the 10/22, I just don't think rimfires are *ever* reliable enough to bet your life on; the ammo is less reliable, there is less mass involved in cycling, the rimmed cartridges, the magazines; almost everything involved is less dependable then centerfire. I've been around a lot of high-end .22s and I've heard every excuse in the book why "its never done this before" or "it usually runs flawlessly, it just must be the _____ messing with it this time," I'll be the first to say my personal 10/22 is a dog, and might be the most overrated gun in history.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by echo83 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:58 pm

Kind of a Goldilocks and the four guns scenario here.

I would recommend the Shield in 9 mm. Especially in an apartment. All of the rifles listed, possibly with the exception of the 10/22, run the risk of sailing through a wall and several roommates.

Except for the 10/22, which has an advantage in capacity, but little else. I think a few well-placed rounds of 9 mm are a better option than peppering the hallway and roommates with a hail of .22 rounds. Further, while I would never underestimate the lethality of .22, it's not my first choice.

I'm in a house, and have a Mossberg 500, an SKS and a Marlin Model 25. If anything went sideways, I would go for the Mossberg first.

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by woodsghost » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:18 pm

Just to be super clear, in case anyone missed it, the Shield will send rounds through walls and roommates too. A 115+ gr projectile at 900+ fps will go through 8+ sheets of drywall (4+ walls). Look it up. This has been documented time and again. I say 8+ because I don't know anyone who has tested more than 8 sheets. The 9mm simply has more penetration than testers have the drywall to test.

The .22 will do the best with over penetration.

If you manage to hit your bad guy the Shield will be ok with over penetration. But if you miss, it will sail on through lots of walls.

Not saying plus/minus. Just stating facts.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by NT2C » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:06 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:18 pm
Just to be super clear, in case anyone missed it, the Shield will send rounds through walls and roommates too. A 115+ gr projectile at 900+ fps will go through 8+ sheets of drywall (4+ walls). Look it up. This has been documented time and again. I say 8+ because I don't know anyone who has tested more than 8 sheets. The 9mm simply has more penetration than testers have the drywall to test.

The .22 will do the best with over penetration.

If you manage to hit your bad guy the Shield will be ok with over penetration. But if you miss, it will sail on through lots of walls.

Not saying plus/minus. Just stating facts.
Penetration is going to vary greatly with the type of bullet used though. A good expanding bullet will be stopped far sooner than hardball ammo will.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by yossarian » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:36 pm

I vote for the top break H&R with half a cylinder and no trigger. Oops sorry, I thought this was a Twizzler thread.

Pistol and don't over think it. Nothing penetrates adequately without the possibility of over penetration.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by woodsghost » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:51 pm

NT2C wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:06 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:18 pm
Just to be super clear, in case anyone missed it, the Shield will send rounds through walls and roommates too. A 115+ gr projectile at 900+ fps will go through 8+ sheets of drywall (4+ walls). Look it up. This has been documented time and again. I say 8+ because I don't know anyone who has tested more than 8 sheets. The 9mm simply has more penetration than testers have the drywall to test.

The .22 will do the best with over penetration.

If you manage to hit your bad guy the Shield will be ok with over penetration. But if you miss, it will sail on through lots of walls.

Not saying plus/minus. Just stating facts.
Penetration is going to vary greatly with the type of bullet used though. A good expanding bullet will be stopped far sooner than hardball ammo will.
Very fair. The tests I have seen (lots of Youtube and I think The Box of Truth?) have all shown over 8 layers/4 walls penetrated with ALL 9mm ammo except maybe the Cor-Bon Glaser stuff. Even frangible (breaks into powder when hitting steel) trucks through drywall like FMJ.

Glasers only penetrate ~8 inches in ballistic gel, IIRC, or I'd be more interested.

So while you are right that some rounds go deeper than others, the tests I remember seeing say ALL 9mm rounds penetrate more than most people feel is acceptable. But everyone needs to make that decision for themselves.

A .22 is a 30-40gr projectile near 1100 FPS. A 00 Buck pellet is 55gr between 1050 and 1300 usually (low recoil vs most Standard rounds). #1 Buck should be near 40 gr? From a "Wall penetration" standpoint, the .22 and a shotgun would be compromises which strike a balance between capability and safety. But the shotgun has a far more proven track record than the .22 for physiological stops, though there are interesting stats out there. Sometimes just having a gun gets the job done and the .22 seems to shine in those situations (lots of psychological stops).

I"m still advocating the Shield from the list, but I would suggest he look at a shotgun. Just my opinion, unless the physical layout makes wielding a shotgun too difficult. Which 3 out of my 4 apartments have been too tight.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by Asymetryczna » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:45 pm

Tell me more about the threat? Does anyone that lives there drink alcohol or use drugs?
Of his options, I'd add a good lockbox and safely secure them.
A group of 20-year olds with ball bats or broom sticks can take apart just about anything in about 15 seconds.
The best proven shot should stand overwatch with the pistol, as long as he has thought about the SDZ of the weapon.
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Re: Home Defense Choices

Post by RickOShea » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:51 pm
NT2C wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:06 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:18 pm
Just to be super clear, in case anyone missed it, the Shield will send rounds through walls and roommates too. A 115+ gr projectile at 900+ fps will go through 8+ sheets of drywall (4+ walls). Look it up. This has been documented time and again. I say 8+ because I don't know anyone who has tested more than 8 sheets. The 9mm simply has more penetration than testers have the drywall to test.

The .22 will do the best with over penetration.

If you manage to hit your bad guy the Shield will be ok with over penetration. But if you miss, it will sail on through lots of walls.

Not saying plus/minus. Just stating facts.
Penetration is going to vary greatly with the type of bullet used though. A good expanding bullet will be stopped far sooner than hardball ammo will.
Very fair. The tests I have seen (lots of Youtube and I think The Box of Truth?) have all shown over 8 layers/4 walls penetrated with ALL 9mm ammo except maybe the Cor-Bon Glaser stuff. Even frangible (breaks into powder when hitting steel) trucks through drywall like FMJ.
Yeah, its been a while since I looked at all those Box O' Truth drywall tests, but I recall them showing most 9mm, .40, and .45 hollow points zipping right thru all the walls with almost no expansion. IIRC, they said the boolitz they were able to recover had the hollow cavities plugged with drywall material.
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