5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Snyper708 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:26 pm

M193 doesn't meet those criteria, so I don't see how it could be banned as AP ammo without changing the law itself.
M855 doesn't fit the actual definition for AP ammo either, but that doesn't seem to be deterring the ATF from proceeding with the ban

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:48 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: The way I hear it, someone cited the 30-year-old exemption to try to get an exemption for another round, which made ATF go 'huh, we fucked up.'

Alternatively, the most likely conspiracy theory: transition to M855A1 was an opportune time for the industry to stop making M855, and the right people were notified. Industry gets to sell off M855 at inflated prices, 'Der terkin err gerns' politicking results in increased donations to lobbying organizations, and I predict the '100 congresspersons' number I keep hearing about will sign a letter, maybe draft a bill they know won't leave committee, and nothing will be done.


M855 does nothing well, other than separate reactionary buyers from their money. I'm willing to bet it's more costly to manufacture than M193, though.
Doc you once told me that generals are solely politicians and that any warnings they give are based upon politics and hence should be given less credence.

In this case the batf is supervised and reports to politicians. The agency itself at managerial levels is run and staffed by wanna be politicians. In short it is full of people similar to the "generals".

To conclude that any change in direction of any kind by such an organization is not based largely (as opposed to solely) upon politics, a rational, thoughtful person would have to ignore a lot of very obvious indications to the contrary. Ignoring the obvious is never wise.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 pm

raptor wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: The way I hear it, someone cited the 30-year-old exemption to try to get an exemption for another round, which made ATF go 'huh, we fucked up.'

Alternatively, the most likely conspiracy theory: transition to M855A1 was an opportune time for the industry to stop making M855, and the right people were notified. Industry gets to sell off M855 at inflated prices, 'Der terkin err gerns' politicking results in increased donations to lobbying organizations, and I predict the '100 congresspersons' number I keep hearing about will sign a letter, maybe draft a bill they know won't leave committee, and nothing will be done.


M855 does nothing well, other than separate reactionary buyers from their money. I'm willing to bet it's more costly to manufacture than M193, though.
Doc you once told me that generals are solely politicians and that any warnings they give are based upon politics and hence should be given less credence.

In this case the batf is supervised and reports to politicians. The agency itself at managerial levels is run and staffed by wanna be politicians. In short it is full of people similar to the "generals".

To conclude that any change in direction of any kind by such an organization is not based largely (as opposed to solely) upon politics, a rational, thoughtful person would have to ignore a lot of very obvious indications to the contrary. Ignoring the obvious is never wise.
It's obvious to me that the exemption should have been rescinded thirty years ago. It's obvious the industry is making all the money on this panic, like every other.

Forgive me, but 'it's obvious what's going on' generally means 'it's my opinion what's going on.' It's obvious to some that chemtrails are deployed to keep us sickly and passive, but making that claim based on circumstantial observation instead of hard facts is a major misstep.

But at this point I have to wonder what relevance there is to trying to convince others that this is a political conspiracy, unless one was trying to push a political agenda on ZS.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Forgive me, but 'it's obvious what's going on' generally means 'it's my opinion what's going on.' It's obvious to some that chemtrails are deployed to keep us sickly and passive, but making that claim based on circumstantial observation instead of hard facts is a major misstep.

But at this point I have to wonder what relevance there is to trying to convince others that this is a political conspiracy, unless one was trying to push a political agenda on ZS.

By all means think for yourself. Please do. In fact think long and and hard. Discarding evidence and observations (circumstantial or otherwise) simply because they do support a desired conclusion is not the best way to arrive at the truth. Indeed they may be spurious and not lead to the truth, but facts should not be discarded until they are proven not to be irrelevant facts.

I am not sure what you mean by "chemtrails" I assume it is a random non-sequitor statement. As for convincing people if you are referring to me, I really do not care what people believe (I gave it for lent about 3 decades ago :wink: ). A word to wise is generally sufficient and a set of encyclopedias is insufficient for the ignorant. People are entitled to their opinions regardless of the logic or lack thereof in arriving at that opinion. I have said that many times over my many years on this forum.

This statement on the other hand sure reads like someone trying to convince people as to the validity of their opinion.
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: The way I hear it, someone cited the 30-year-old exemption to try to get an exemption for another round, which made ATF go 'huh, we fucked up.'

As for politics, I explained to you the process by which Congress gives agencies like the batf the authority to write rules and regulations required to carry out and enforce the law. That and the fact that the law does not have to change, only the regulations promulgated by the agency charged with enforcement of the law. If you think that is politics feel free to complain to the Mods.

Finally if you care to respond to me about this feel free to do so via PM and not via this thread.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 400 Grains » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:31 am

crypto wrote:That's a good point. I distinctly remember seeing an AR pistol in the 80's and thinking it was the coolest thing Id ever seen in my life.
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The Bushmaster.

I had one in the late 70's, and while I didn't shoot it that much, it probably contributed significantly to my saying "Huh?" frequently today....

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by ausher » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:30 pm

Local mills just put out a crapload of m855. I got 600 rounds. They are almost out now.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:11 pm

Well, took my wife and daughter and one of her little friends up to Cabela's to use a gift coupon I had that expired today... Sad (happy?) to say that at least up North of here towards Austin things have gone full retard on 5.56mm/.223 ammo.

There's not a single round left despite what I saw last weekend when they had cases and cases, and 420, 450 and 900-rd ammo cans, etc. Watched them put out a case of plain old 55gr 5.56 today and watched people snap it up a hand full of 20-rd boxes at a a time... They'd put out another and the same thing would happen.

Ironically, there was (over priced) .22LR sitting on the shelves in 300 and 500-rd boxes.

Will check the stores down in San Antonio mañana and if it's the same thing, will put some of mine out for sale or trade straight across for 300BLK or 5.56 SOST rounds... Have a couple more tax stamps and a new patio extension to fund!

I guess all the news articles and commentary on national news woke everybody else up... Or if the half-assed reporting that I saw was indicative of what is being put out there, misleading folks into thinking all 5.56 ammo was being banned.

Oh well, at least I'm in a good position to ride this one out, and maybe even make a couple bucks!
Last edited by 91Eunozs on Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by AS556 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Just picked up a half case of .223 from Freedom Munitions..sitting just under 2k rounds. In theory I could make that last several years. Guess I'll be shooting a lot of 9mm and .38 reloads for awhile.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:59 pm

AS556 wrote:Just picked up a half case of .223 from Freedom Munitions..sitting just under 2k rounds. In theory I could make that last several years. Guess I'll be shooting a lot of 9mm and .38 reloads for awhile.
I really like their 300BLK rounds (edit: for target shooting)... How's their .223 shoot?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Halfapint » Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:19 pm

91Eunozs wrote:
AS556 wrote:Just picked up a half case of .223 from Freedom Munitions..sitting just under 2k rounds. In theory I could make that last several years. Guess I'll be shooting a lot of 9mm and .38 reloads for awhile.
I really like their 300BLK rounds (edit: for target shooting)... How's their .223 shoot?
Shoots really well. I went though around 400rds the other day and not a single FTL/FTE that I can account for being the ammunition. With that I only had 3 FTL. I've got a few thousand rounds from freedom. Got a supplier here, who buys pallets at a time and sells it for cheaper than I can get it direct from freedom.

Edit: Also really like their 9mm reloads
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:55 pm

Thanks!
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by AS556 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:42 pm

Haven't shot it yet, will report back after I do. Heard good things though.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Stercutus » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:29 am

91Eunozs wrote:
Ironically, there was (over priced) .22LR sitting on the shelves in 300 and 500-rd boxes.
Could it be? In the greedy rush the speculators stop snatching all the .22lr to sell at the flea market and instead attempt to dry up the 5.56 supply again? Thereby freeing up the .22lr?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by eeb » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:58 am

Stercutus wrote:
91Eunozs wrote:
Ironically, there was (over priced) .22LR sitting on the shelves in 300 and 500-rd boxes.
Could it be? In the greedy rush the speculators stop snatching all the .22lr to sell at the flea market and instead attempt to dry up the 5.56 supply again? Thereby freeing up the .22lr?
Once the initial shock wears off, they'll likely just start buying up both.

A buddy of mine came into work the other day and asked me, "Why's what's his name trying to ban all the 5.56 ammo?" Grrr..."That's not what's happening"(at least, I don't think it is), but if that's what he thought, I should have known that's what others would think. And of course, some of 'em are gonna spend their life savings and take out mortgages "gettin in before the rush." Only to expand the bubble, and extend the shortage like they have with 22lr. All this right after I got a screaming deal on a SlideFire stock. Ah,well, maybe I'm wrong, and this'll just be a blip on the radar. Guess I could always take up archery.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by angelofwar » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:07 pm

My thoguhts...

1) What bothers me, as others have hinted at, is that the FBI/ATF could really provide no credible evidence/statistics that this round being used was an issue...there was no "increase in cop deaths by M855".

2) On the flip side, if a lack of M855 ruins your TEOTWAWKI plans, those plans might need to be rethought out to begin with.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by eeb » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:56 pm

If it's (edit: the panic buying) restricted to M855, that won't bother me any. Certainly won't affect my "SHTF preps". But if the baah...baaahs start hoarding all .223/5.56, that will get annoying.

Edit: again: .gov taking away another source of ammo is bothersome, but not to the extent some people (speculators) are making it out to be.
Last edited by eeb on Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by woodsghost » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:43 pm

While I agree that a ban on M855 should not affect preps much in the US, there is an issue here of US government action. We can take the attitude of "this does not affect me" or even "this will push people towards better ammo," but what stands out to me is a different principal.

To avoid edging too far into the political, I"ll simply share this poem by Martin Niemöller, written about the rise of the Nazi party in Germany before WWII:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
I do not intend to compare the current US government or specific agencies with Nazis. Even if I felt that way (which I do not), I feel it would be too political.

I DO wish to articulate the idea that defending those we don't really care about is often the road to successfully defending ourselves and what we DO care about. I often defend those who have different values than I do because it is more important to me to have the right to hold different values. I also defend the right to buy one's preferred ammo. We can say "oh that does not affect me, I don't buy that ammo" all day long ..... until it DOES affect us.

I'll stop here because otherwise I'll stray too far into politics. PMs are welcome.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:04 pm

angelofwar wrote:...if a lack of M855 ruins your TEOTWAWKI plans, those plans might need to be rethought out to begin with.
:clap: That's sig line material right there! To the point, and well said...

And well said (as usual) to you as well WoodsGhost!

I too have that itch in the back of my cranium that if they can grab this one with no push back, why not others? Channeling the recently departed Spock, I can logically understand the way this is playing out, but even though I don't even like to shoot M855 all that much I feel a most illogical compulsion to try to get more.

Then I see the bill for our backyard improvements and I'm motivated to sell most of my M855/XM855/SS109 stash! Maybe keep a 20-rd box or two as a collectible but no real need for me to hang onto this for my long term storage needs...I'm well covered. :wink:
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Mikeyboy » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:39 pm

Oh boy a new panic...Time to profit.

I got a case of M855 that I bought for $210 just a few years ago collecting dust. I have seen online prices as high as $695, and I'm really tempted to float it out there to see if I can get someone desperate enough to bite for that price. I can buy another AR-rifle for $700. For $700 I could just switch out my current AR with a new .300 Blackout upper and still have money left over to buy 1000 rounds of .300 ammo. Heck I might buy an Mini-30 for shits and giggles.

http://www.bulkammo.com/bulk-223-ammo-5 ... 55pmc-1000

Gullible Gun People will never learn. Always falling for the panic of the month.

Can someone please start an Ammo panic on .32acp ammo, I have a few boxes that I need to get rid of.

The ATF is going to ban Beretta Tomcats and .32acp ammo
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by TheLastOne » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:50 pm

eeb wrote:If it's (edit: the panic buying) restricted to M855, that won't bother me any. Certainly won't affect my "SHTF preps". But if the baah...baaahs start hoarding all .223/5.56, that will get annoying.

And that's what's happening. Some of my usual online sources for 223 are out of wolf, others are now up to 30c + per round for steel cased :vmad:

I'm about ready to take up bows and arrows. This is bullshit.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Maeklos » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:00 pm

woodsghost wrote: I DO wish to articulate the idea that defending those we don't really care about is often the road to successfully defending ourselves and what we DO care about.
Or as Voltaire (I think) once said: "I may not agree with what you say, sir, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Halfapint » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:04 pm

To me I'm not worried about the gov banning anything else. From my reading and from what others have said on this board, it looks like someone was trying to get another type of ammo exempt, when the BATF saw the exception for M855 they said... Oh well now that AR pistols are rather common. ::yoink:: there goes the ammo, and here comes the conspiracy theorist.

A few of the gun guys (and gals) at work were talking and I over heard one say "Obama is banning AR's"...... At that point I slammed my head on the table and screamed. This whole thing is like a really bad version of telephone. One person hears something, then tells the other person, the other person interprets it and tells someone something else, and it gets to my idiot coworker (who knowing he has guns scares the piss right of out of me) and gets converted to "der tak'n err guuuuuunnnsss". This my friends is why we cant have nice things, and should serve as a lesson to not cite an exemption that's been 30 years out of date to get an exemption for another type of ammo.

Edit:
TheLastOne wrote:eta Milcopp BOW AND ARROW TAC COURSE DOOOO ITTTTT
clearing rooms with your bow
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shoot 600 yards with your bow
throw your bow against a tree!
OMG DO IT@@!@@!!! I would be there in a heart beat!
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Maeklos » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:12 pm

Halfapint wrote: Edit:
TheLastOne wrote:eta Milcopp BOW AND ARROW TAC COURSE DOOOO ITTTTT
clearing rooms with your bow
Vehicle ambush tactics with your bow
shoot 600 yards with your bow
throw your bow against a tree!
OMG DO IT@@!@@!!! I would be there in a heart beat!
Politics is like having two handfuls of shit - one that smells bad and one that looks bad - and having to decide which one to put in your mouth.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by TheLastOne » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:14 pm

A big problem I think is that there is no real source for 'news'. Everything is owned by someone with an agenda (which is fine, whatevs) and it would be just fucking dandy if there was some way to get straight information about what is happening in any situation without speculation, inference, bias, etc. We're at the mercy with every moron on the planet able to blast their ignorance and personal issues across the internet and at the mercy of other morons willing to listen. Facebook posts have become the best source of information for a lot of people who need the 19 best reasons to not fucking kill themselves.

We're all at least a little guilty of this, myself included, and I'm not really saying there is a solution. I'm just blasting my moronic viewpoint across the internet. You probably shouldn't listen.


:words: :crazy:

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