5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by AS556 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:33 pm

I shot some 855 yesterday. Am I a bad person?

Maybe I'll develop a racket painting the tips of LC 193 green then selling for $600/case..

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Halfapint » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:54 pm

AS556 wrote:I shot some 855 yesterday. Am I a bad person?

Maybe I'll develop a racket painting the tips of LC 193 green then selling for $600/case..
Well I feel like a jerk I bought the last 10 boxes, as I was checking out 3 people walked in and asked if they had any more. The guy behind the counter chuckled and said you might want to hide these. But he said they are getting another shipment tomorrow, funny thing, they haven't raised their prices on them still 0.60 per round. I just replaced the 400ish I shot the other week. Now, I am content.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Armor76 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:03 am

Alright, so pardon the dumb question.

Is m855 somehow "better" ammunition to use in a hypothetical self defense situation involving SHTF or zombies?

I thought soft body armor wouldn't stand a chance against "regular" OR m855 ammo... because soft armor is made to stop pistol ammo, not rifle ammo. I understand that it meets the LEGAL requirements for armor piercing and so it will be banned.... but we aren't talking about piercing plate armor, are we?

So... Both ammos go through soft armor, neither ammo goes through plate armor..... so why do we care that we can't buy it when it's no different than what we CAN buy?

Why is M855 so great?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:11 am

Armor76 wrote:
Why is M855 so great?
It's not. M193 will defeat some Level III plates though, and fragments better.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:15 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Armor76 wrote:
Why is M855 so great?
It's not. M193 will defeat some Level III plates though, and fragments better.

But it has green tips... which is instant street-cred in zombie circles...
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by BurtMacklinFBI » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:20 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:

But it has green tips... which is instant street-cred in zombie circles...
I'll show you a green tip! Doc said the penicillin shot should clear it up within the week though :/
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Kommander » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:49 am

Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:25 am

Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
I think it's more about the steel penetrator core than its ability to pierce armor. A .300 Win Mag soft point will bust through light armor, doesn't mean your hunting rifle will get banned. But that's just how I see it.
I'll show you a green tip! Doc said the penicillin shot should clear it up within the week though :/
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:31 am

Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
Not without a change to the law.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by woodsghost » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:12 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Armor76 wrote:
Why is M855 so great?
It's not. M193 will defeat some Level III plates though, and fragments better.
I know you know this Doc, so just to clarify for others:

Penetration of Lvl III steel plates seems to depend on velocity. M193 gets higher velocity due to lighter weight. Longer barrel lengths lead to higher velocity, though past a certain length, each inch of barrel adds less and less velocity.

Lighter weight bullets and longer barrels extend the distance that M193 will manage to penetrate steel Lvl III armor.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

From what I have seen on YT vids, M855 might maybe have an edge in punching through ceramic which has already been degraded. Not sure though. It might also have an edge in punching through poly-ethylene.

The Military Arms channel did a review of penetration on 3 different plates. Around 12:00 he tests penetration using M855. Ceramic & Poly-ethylene both failed, though it is possible he simple shot too close to where previous round had impacted. [Personally, that is what I think happened to the ceramic as other tests have different results. I really cannot comment on the poly-ethylene.]

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by UndeadInfidel » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:11 pm

M855 is bargain barrel shit. Shoot it or sell it.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:51 am

Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?

M193 is conventional FMJ ammo, so no. To me, its not that the ATF is stretching the definition, I'm fine with the definition. It's got a big steel penetrator in it specifically for body armor defeat. Thats why M855 exists. To punch through Soviet body armor.


I think the law itself is dumb, but no one noticed how dumb it was until we started seeing rifle-caliber pistols on the market.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Mountainsquid » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:35 am

AS556 wrote:I shot some 855 yesterday. Am I a bad person?

Maybe I'll develop a racket painting the tips of LC 193 green then selling for $600/case..
Paint .22lr tips in green.

You'll be able to retire at 40.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 400 Grains » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:02 am

crypto wrote:I think the law itself is dumb, but no one noticed how dumb it was until we started seeing a proliferation of rifle-caliber pistols on the market.
Added a little. .223 pistols have been around for 30+ years.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:41 pm

That's a good point. I distinctly remember seeing an AR pistol in the 80's and thinking it was the coolest thing Id ever seen in my life.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:06 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
Not without a change to the law.
Without getting into politics but I would note that the law does not have to be changed for this to happen only the regulations and the agency's interpretation of the law.

As an example this "proposed" change is a regulation change that is permitted under the law. It is the prerogative of the director of the batf to make this change albeit after a request for public commentary. The director can and will do what he wants (or do what he instructed to do by his superiors) after the public commentary opinion closes.

The law does not have to change, only the regulation as promulgated by the agency has to change.

Congress obviously can then go back and pass a law invalidating or modifying the regulation if it can muster the votes to do so and get then it past the POTUS.

The other option is for an affected person(s) to file suit in federal court challenging the regulation change for whatever reason they can come up with. A court can modify, rewrite or even invalidate the rule change.

Regulation changes by federal agencies happen every day. Likewise lawsuits challenging the interpretation and changes occur just as frequently.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:30 pm

raptor wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
Not without a change to the law.
Without getting into politics but I would note that the law does not have to be changed for this to happen only the regulations and the agency's interpretation of the law.
/quote]

I don't see how, the standards for "armor piercing" are enshrined in the GCA. M193 doesn't meet those criteria, so I don't see how it could be banned as AP ammo without changing the law itself.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:56 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
raptor wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Kommander wrote:Hmm, forgive my ignorance (again) but I don't suppose there is a way that M193 and the like could be next? Some element of it's construction that could be interpreted to fit the ATF's definition armor piercing?
Not without a change to the law.
Without getting into politics but I would note that the law does not have to be changed for this to happen only the regulations and the agency's interpretation of the law.
/quote]

I don't see how, the standards for "armor piercing" are enshrined in the GCA. M193 doesn't meet those criteria, so I don't see how it could be banned as AP ammo without changing the law itself.
The language "enshrined" in any law and/or act is subject to interpretation. Interpretation can and does change over time and based upon the person reading and interpreting it. This is common in tax law (IRS regulations and rulings), securities and exchange regulations (SEC), banking rules and regulations (Treasury), environmental regulations (EPA regulations) and even the firearms regulations.

Agencies can and have decided they have handled a wide variety of matters wrong in the past and now need to change their positions by changing existing regulations. As I noted that is exactly what prompted this regulation change.They decided that things have changed since the regulation was first drafted.

They can change their mind due to court rulings, executive, legislative or even public pressure. This is not a legislative change it is a regulation change. Quite often (not always but most times) the law gives the agency director authority to draft rules and regulations to help enforce the law. That authority allows him/her to likewise change them, albeit with a public notice to that effect. Congress very rarely writes the rules and regulations; the agencies are normally (but not always) empowered to the write and change the regs.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:34 pm

What changed with this one was the proliferation of handguns capable of firing the bullet, resulting in a long-overdue revocation of the exemption granted in the past.

You're saying ATF has the power to change the interpretation of the law to make a lead-core FMJ fit the definition? Or are you saying the regulatory agencies get to rewrite the text of laws when they want to?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by raptor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:00 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: You're saying ATF has the power to change the interpretation of the law to make a lead-core FMJ fit the definition? Or are you saying the regulatory agencies get to rewrite the text of laws when they want to?
What I am saying for is that regulatory agencies can and do re-write the rules and regulations that they promulgate under the laws authorized by Congress. They do this all the time when they want to do so, are forced to do so or otherwise in their opinion need to do so. Some are normal clarifications, others are position changes, some are contested in court some are simply accepted.

Are you saying there is no circumstance whatsoever under which the batf could decide to make such a change lawful, unlawful, right wrong or otherwise? Of course they can. They simply have to decide to redefine their interpretation of whatever aspects of the law's language they want to change. That is the purpose of attorneys and litigators. To argue semantics of the law.

The only question is if they did, would that change be deemed lawful and permissible by the courts? That and what would be the response to such a change.

Any agency can take any position it wants to on a subject. It can even selectively enforce or ignore enforcement of a law. There are many instances of such occurring. That does not mean such actions (on inaction) is legal, permissible or even justifiable only that they occur.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Kommander » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:03 pm

Doctorr Fabulous you do understand why so many find the timing of this to be quite suspicious. After 30 years of letting it slide they just wake up one morning and decided to rescind the exemption. I do hope that this is the end of it, and not the beginning of somthing with regard to AR pistols.
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by AS556 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:16 pm

So what exactly does 855 do well, then? Better accuracy from 1/7" barrels and better terminal performance (than 193) after penetrating light barriers? Is this just through sheet metal or plywood and auto glass, too?

The mags in my plate carrier are all 855..you know, for the pockylips.

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:10 pm

Kommander wrote:Doctorr Fabulous you do understand why so many find the timing of this to be quite suspicious. After 30 years of letting it slide they just wake up one morning and decided to rescind the exemption. I do hope that this is the end of it, and not the beginning of somthing with regard to AR pistols.
The way I hear it, someone cited the 30-year-old exemption to try to get an exemption for another round, which made ATF go 'huh, we fucked up.'

Alternatively, the most likely conspiracy theory: transition to M855A1 was an opportune time for the industry to stop making M855, and the right people were notified. Industry gets to sell off M855 at inflated prices, 'Der terkin err gerns' politicking results in increased donations to lobbying organizations, and I predict the '100 congresspersons' number I keep hearing about will sign a letter, maybe draft a bill they know won't leave committee, and nothing will be done.


M855 does nothing well, other than separate reactionary buyers from their money. I'm willing to bet it's more costly to manufacture than M193, though.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:25 pm

AS556 wrote:So what exactly does 855 do well, then? Better accuracy from 1/7" barrels and better terminal performance (than 193) after penetrating light barriers? Is this just through sheet metal or plywood and auto glass, too?

The mags in my plate carrier are all 855..you know, for the pockylips.
What it does better is poke through personal body armor (helmets, soft armor, etc) at range. That's what it was designed to do, but we haven't ever gotten into a shooting war with an armored adversary since its adoption.
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