5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:36 pm

Kommander wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
kbi wrote:
#1 If you plan on selling those rounds after 3/15/2015 people will be in violation of fed law .

#2 And forget loading your own ( no projos for sale ) either after said date

My understanding was that you couldn't manufacture or conduct retail sale. Got a link to where it says those who already owned projectiles can't reload them?
I think he means that one will be unable to buy new projectiles for reloading after the ban, though could reloading the bullets be considered manufacturing ammo if one already has the bullets?
The projectiles will be banned as well. Here's what ATF says specifically on it:
ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is
legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the
exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition.
However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce such armor piercing
ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers and
importers will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition.8

7 Projectiles of this caliber loaded into these cartridges made from other metals, e.g., lead or copper, is not armor
piercing to begin with, and will not be effected by the withdrawal of this exemption.
8 See 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(7) and (a)(8).


18 U.S.C. § 922(a)
>(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless—
(A) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, unless such sale or delivery—
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;


No mention is made of individuals loading legally possessed projectiles, nor of individuals selling loaded ammo to other individuals, so long as said individual is not loading ammunition to sell commercially without a license.

TL:DR It's all there in the ATF documentation. This is nothing new, this is a withdrawal of a exemption made when the LEOPA was passed, and since there are now AR pistols rather prominently, ATF is rescinding the exemption, as they likely should have doen when the first mag-fed AR psitolw as released. It's just been skating by for a couple decades.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:02 pm

Ok, after reading through the whole thing twice, unless I'm reading this wrong, I believe private individuals can still buy/sell/trade SS109/XM855:

"Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition.

Of course none will be available to the public from the manufacturers or importers...making them as rare as unicorn tears in a few years.

What am I missing?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by chills1994 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:40 am

Maybe in my moment of clarity at this early hour...

Instead of banning M855 ammo for EVERYBODY, why not just make it illegal to shoot it through AR pistols?

Of course, it would be nearly impossible to enforce.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Stercutus » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:58 am

chills1994 wrote:Maybe in my moment of clarity at this early hour...

Instead of banning M855 ammo for EVERYBODY, why not just make it illegal to shoot it through AR pistols?

Of course, it would be nearly impossible to enforce.
Yeah and no more putting that evil Sig Brace up to your shoulder either, there should be mass pee-pee spankings for that.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by chills1994 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:35 am

Stercutus wrote:
chills1994 wrote:Maybe in my moment of clarity at this early hour...

Instead of banning M855 ammo for EVERYBODY, why not just make it illegal to shoot it through AR pistols?

Of course, it would be nearly impossible to enforce.
Yeah and no more putting that evil Sig Brace up to your shoulder either, there should be mass pee-pee spankings for that.
Man-oh-man! Think of the horror! Shooting M855 with your Sig braced AR pistol tucked in tight next to your shoulder.

How all those millions of victims will be irreparably traumatized?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by mr_slappy75 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:51 am

Aaaargh!! Seriously!?!?!?

So last year -before I really started to look at the madness that ammo pricing in .22LR had become- I said to myself: "Hey Slappy, maybe getting a S&W M&P 15-22 is a good way to start on a trainer for the AR platform and then move up to the real thing while still getting to keep a nice plinker/trainer/1st longarm for Slappy Jr. when he comes of age...

Then to see that a forum such as this actually needs to have a full 3+ page on the nuttiness of .22LR price gouging and panic-hoarding driven scarcity to the point where it really made no economical sense for me to get into a .22 AR trainer since actual 5.56 ARs and ammo are pretty affordable...

So now what? Revise the above statement because now the time of 'pretty affordable 5.56' is done and over with? The relatively inexpensive surplus ammo is going to not be available and thus all other ammo is going to go up? There is going to be another bunch of folks dropping close to $1K on pallet loads of M855 before it is gone for good?
So that folks who are trying to get in the AR platform now, y'know cuz the fiscally responsible thing do as someone who believes and tries to practice self-reliance and preparedness is to cover the real needs, security concerns, before considering the less likely threats, now have to contend with this BS too and get priced out of the market?
WTF ATF?
Yet another instance were NOTHING has happened to prove this a 'right call' but well, just in case because actual written law has always been such a reliable deterrent of those hellbent on illegal activities and all.


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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:14 pm

M193 and Wolf are still cheap. Don't buy into the doomsayer panic.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:48 pm

Unfortunately, $1K won't buy a pallet of ammo these days, more like a couple 50-cal ammo cans full. After taxes of course... :wink:

I'm not gonna sweat this too much... I prefer to shoot 55gr 193-type ammo anyway for target/plinking and 60ish gr soft points or 75-77gr TAP-type ammo for HD and hunting anyway.

I get that we were operating on an exemption anyway for this particular ammo but gotta say that it'd not too far of a stretch to see them continuing to try to take the ammo if they can't take the guns. I'll leave it at that to keep this thread from being punted...
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Halfapint » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:22 pm

Hey I just picked up 1k of m193 for $260 (.26 per round) it's also not steel case stuff, its actual brass. .223 is still rather affordable to shoot, but now that the panic has gone down over .22 might be time to look at getting that trainer.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:19 pm

Just to play devils advocate, wasn't the express reason that M855 was created in the late 1970s specifically to defeat soviet helmets at range?

That sure seems like it meets the spirit of the law with regards to it's armor-piercing nature.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by 91Eunozs » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:24 pm

Tons of .22LR available around here now. Bulk, 50-rd boxes...everything.

Tons of all flavors of 5.56/.223 as well except for XM855 and even that is still available at some of the smaller, out of the way shops.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by mr_slappy75 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:28 pm

Halfapint wrote:Hey I just picked up 1k of m193 for $260 (.26 per round) it's also not steel case stuff, its actual brass. .223 is still rather affordable to shoot, but now that the panic has gone down over .22 might be time to look at getting that trainer.
91Eunozs, Don't forget that unfortunately sometimes shortages and panic perception can be a regional phenomenon, .22 is still a pain to find in any sizable numbers or reasonable prices locally in IL, believe me I've been checking.

Now, some online vendors do have come down and are close to pre-panic costs so you may be onto something HP.

Still, pretty rough to find bricks around here all I've seen are 50-rd boxes and once in a blue moon and odd 100 rounder.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:01 pm

crypto wrote:Just to play devils advocate, wasn't the express reason that M855 was created in the late 1970s specifically to defeat soviet helmets at range?

That sure seems like it meets the spirit of the law with regards to it's armor-piercing nature.
It has a steel core and can be fired from repeating handguns. It matches the letter of the law, and was only exempted from LEOPA because at the time there weren't any repeating [i.e. non-single-shot] handguns that could fire it. The exemption is being rescinded, just like the exemption for 7n6 and other steel-core surplus ammo. ATF isn't doing anything squirrelly. The firearms industry, on the other hand, is playing up the "you can't have it anymore, be mad" angle to sell off all their stocks that are sitting around at inflated prices.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by woodsghost » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:11 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: The firearms industry, on the other hand, is playing up the "you can't have it anymore, be mad" angle ....
I think it also strikes some nerves which are rubbed rather sore by some laws. I, for one, would not be upset if there were some changes.

I think it gets at another issue, that of something being ok at one point in time and then not ok ~20 years later.

There are some other nerves which have been rubbed raw, but I"ll stop now.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Stercutus » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:45 pm

crypto wrote:Just to play devils advocate, wasn't the express reason that M855 was created in the late 1970s specifically to defeat soviet helmets at range?

That sure seems like it meets the spirit of the law with regards to it's armor-piercing nature.
Sure, however lots of other rounds will penetrate armor quite easily out of a handgun, especially if you give it a 7.5"+ barrel as is common with AR pistols.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by chills1994 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:55 pm

There was a decision a few years ago that said all once fired military brass had to be mutilated before being auctioned off.

A couple of senators got involved and got the order reversed.

IMO, the goal of this latest spiel, just like with the brass, is to make it more expensive to shoot.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Stercutus wrote:
crypto wrote:Just to play devils advocate, wasn't the express reason that M855 was created in the late 1970s specifically to defeat soviet helmets at range?

That sure seems like it meets the spirit of the law with regards to it's armor-piercing nature.
Sure, however lots of other rounds will penetrate armor quite easily out of a handgun, especially if you give it a 7.5"+ barrel as is common with AR pistols.
Sure, but they werent /designed/ for that express purpose, and they dont have a steel core for that purpose. I'm just saying, I'm not surprised at all.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by teotwaki » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:04 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
crypto wrote:Just to play devils advocate, wasn't the express reason that M855 was created in the late 1970s specifically to defeat soviet helmets at range?

That sure seems like it meets the spirit of the law with regards to it's armor-piercing nature.
It has a steel core and can be fired from repeating handguns. It matches the letter of the law, and was only exempted from LEOPA because at the time there weren't any repeating [i.e. non-single-shot] handguns that could fire it. The exemption is being rescinded, just like the exemption for 7n6 and other steel-core surplus ammo. ATF isn't doing anything squirrelly. The firearms industry, on the other hand, is playing up the "you can't have it anymore, be mad" angle to sell off all their stocks that are sitting around at inflated prices.
To me this situation highlights that the original law on AP was silly as evidenced by the zero attacks on cops with any firearm loaded with armor piercing rounds. Unless someone has a good cite to refute that but not that I could find. The firearms industry is happy to take our money at the higher prices so shame on them too. :mrgreen:
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:06 pm

chills1994 wrote:There was a decision a few years ago that said all once fired military brass had to be mutilated before being auctioned off.

A couple of senators got involved and got the order reversed.

IMO, the goal of this latest spiel, just like with the brass, is to make it more expensive to shoot.
Ah, damn whichever administration was in charge in 1986 for plotting to wait almost thirty years to ban M855...
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by crypto » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:27 pm

When has M855 been cheaper to shoot than almost anything else?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Halfapint » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:53 pm

So.... After all this panic and all the online distributors being sold out, I decided to take a look at my LGS. Walked in, walked to where they have the m855, and there it was. Boxes and boxes. Not sure how much but I bought 10, at 50¢ a round. Asked if they have a limit and the guy just chuckled and said aw, buy it all, We have plenty.

I dunno he didn't seem worried in the least bit about it.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by chills1994 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:12 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
chills1994 wrote:There was a decision a few years ago that said all once fired military brass had to be mutilated before being auctioned off.

A couple of senators got involved and got the order reversed.

IMO, the goal of this latest spiel, just like with the brass, is to make it more expensive to shoot.
Ah, damn whichever administration was in charge in 1986 for plotting to wait almost thirty years to ban M855...

Huh?
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:41 pm

chills1994 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
chills1994 wrote:There was a decision a few years ago that said all once fired military brass had to be mutilated before being auctioned off.

A couple of senators got involved and got the order reversed.

IMO, the goal of this latest spiel, just like with the brass, is to make it more expensive to shoot.
Ah, damn whichever administration was in charge in 1986 for plotting to wait almost thirty years to ban M855...

Huh?
The ban on AP handgun ammo comes from the LEOPA, passed in 1986. It's the same thing that banned the import of steel-core 7n6. M855 was granted an exemption in 1986 when it passed, and M2 ball was granted an exemption a few years later as well. Frankly, the exemption should have been lifted with the production of the first magazine-fed 5.56 pistol. All that seems to be glossed over by every blog going for the OH NO PANIC AND BUY AMMO headlines.

Here's some selections from the PDF linked on page one:
18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B):
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended
for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17)

Although the design and intention for the ammunition is relevant to the second alternative
definition, the first alternative contains no such limitation. In fact, during the final vote on
LEOPA, Congress specifically rejected an amendment that would have limited the definition of
armor piercing ammunition to ammunition “intended” to be used in a handgun, thereby
exempting “standard rifle ammunition.”

As a result, rather than limiting the definition to the
manufacturer’s “design” or “intent,” the final bill passed by Congress clearly expanded the
definition of armor piercing ammunition to include any ammunition containing the specified
metal content “which may be used in a handgun.” This definition has remained unchanged since
enactment of LEOPA in 1986.
With these factors in mind, ATF has developed the following framework to guide its
analysis in processing requests to exempt as “primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes” projectiles otherwise appropriately classified as armor piercing:

Category I: .22 Caliber Projectiles
A .22 caliber projectile that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing
ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) will be considered to be “primarily
intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the
projectile weighs 40 grains or less AND is loaded into a rimfire cartridge.
ATF has long recognized .22 rimfire firearms and ammunition as primarily intended for
sporting use.

Further, .22 rimfire projectiles are usually 40 grains or lighter and are generally
suitable only for use against small game and at short distances. This ammunition poses little
threat to law enforcement and exemption of such ammunition is consistent with the language,
statutory scheme, and intent of LEOPA.

Category II: All Other Caliber Projectiles
Except as provided in Category I (.22 caliber rimfire), projectiles that
otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition will be presumed
to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section
921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile is loaded into a cartridge for which the only
handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade
is a single shot handgun. ATF nevertheless retains the discretion to deny any
application for a “sporting purposes” exemption if substantial evidence exists
that the ammunition is not primarily intended for such purposes.

I reiterate, this is nothing but ATF doing what they should have done, per laws that were passed 29 years ago. This is not a secret plot by ATF to take away the ammo that hasn't typically been that cheap and can't be shot at many ranges due to the steel core. The shoddy reporting could be part of a plot by the retailers who have piles of M855 to sell off the rest of their stocks at inflated prices so they're not stuck with stuff they can't sell.
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Re: 5.56mm Green Tip M855 Could be banned

Post by chills1994 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:17 pm

When was the first AR pistol made commercially available?

My point is simple economics: there is only such a large pool of ammo/brass/bullets/other components available.

If supply is restricted somehow, then that drives up demand on other sources. These other sources then typically adjust their prices upward.
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