Firearms Chat 3: #pewpewlife

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

I am done with trading guns.

I just had a guy get pissed at me for backing out of a deal with plenty of advanced notice. Nothing was set in stone, but I guess a couple days notice isn't good enough. I know it makes me look bad, but am I not allowed to change my mind if I think I'm getting the short end of the deal and want to keep my gun instead ?

I already felt bad enough about potentially getting rid of my gun that I put a bunch of money into and now I get called a flake and told I wasted the guys time. No one told him to turn down other offers and I'd have totally understood if he took another offer instead of mine. But I guess I'm the jerk here.

Screw it. I'm done with trading guns if every potential trade is going to end up like this and the other guy wants to act like a dick.

ETA: Looking at it from the other guy's perspective, I guess I am the jerk here. Because of me, the other guy missed out on potential deals and I did indeed waste his time. I fully accept that. I'd contact the guy to apologize, but I'm pretty sure he's got me blocked on the sales board by now and it'd just be a waste of both our time.

Still, I'm done with trading guns. I'd rather not go through this crap again.

[the_alias]

That sucks ^

Can ya'll give me the lowdown on some cheapish AR ammo I can stock up on...should I go with Wolf/Tula/another brand. I'd like to order 2k probably quite soon as storage and maybe bit more for plinking.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

American Eagle seems to be popular in my AO, Alias.

I honestly have no idea what brands of AR ammo are good or which ones are bad. I tend to run Tula through my AKs and it's decent plinking ammo. I've got some Hornady set aside for defensive purposes, but I use the Tula for range days.

[quazi]

The cheapest stuff I could find locally was surplus Australian F1 ball. It uses the SS109 projectile, which is pretty meh, but it has been reliable and reasonably accurate.

I've also been shooting American Eagle and PMC. The American Eagle .223 has been loaded hotter than PMC and I had one dud PMC round out of the 80 or so I've fired. I wouldn't buy the PMC stuff again, but honestly it's been a pretty small sample size.

I haven't experimented with the imported steel cased ammo as I'm planning to reload.

It's kind of a different situation in the contiguous U.S. as you can order ammo through the mail.

ETA: The Australian stuff was only available in 900 round ammo cans, but it sounds like you're interested in buying in bulk anyway.

[the_alias]

Yeh have picked up 1k rounds of Tul for now. $243 shipped...Ok I guess. Range I go to doesn't allow for steel but there are some outdoor ones.

[quazi]

I picked up some Armscor and PPU .223 today, but I can't tell you how well they work yet.

I've had good luck with PPU/Prvi Partizan in the past.

[BullOnParade]

No one's feeling chatty on the AR build thread, and it's probably more fitting here:

Not my build, but I still need help trouble shooting.

Chiappa .22 upper with proprietary bolt and 1:16 rifled barrel.
I've had this toy out to the range a couple of times now and I see two issues I wish to address:
1) Light primer strikes. I'd love to turn this thing into a powerhouse of a .22, what can I do to create more punch on the firing pin? Options that come to mind are stronger springs or machining a new pin with an extra 0.01-0.015".

2) Swollen cases near the rim. Upon examination of the spent brass, there's a consistent expansion to one side, from the rim up about 0.125", the swell is 0.01" high. I assume this is a fault in the chamber, any way to get rid of it? It's only .22, not like I'm reloading them, but I have slight concerns of weak or thin brass lining up with the fault point and increasing risk of a case rupture.

Suggestions on things to try are welcome, pics tonight if I think of it.

[quazi]

Sorry, I don't know how to fix it. Can you get any close up pics of the chamber?


Thermal is starting to get relatively inexpensive. The MSRP on Leupold's new offering is $875. It will be interesting to see what the street price is.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

I wonder if the chamber could be re-cut if that's the problem ?

Probably would be cheaper to just put a new barrel on it rather than re-cut the chamber on the existing one.

As for the light primer strikes, a stronger firing pin spring might solve that issue.

[quazi]

I've seen some people saying that stainless steel barrels can be dangerous to shoot when temps get below zero.

Is this actually a significant threat? It looks like a lot of people are citing an article from Krieger that is no longer on their website. Other people are claiming it's BS and citing an article from Lilja that is no longer on their website.

I know that steel does lose strength in extremely cold weather. When they people talk about cold they also often talk in relative terms, but are not specific about temperature. There's a significant difference between -50F, -20F and +20F. I shoot a lot at 20F, and occasionally at -20F. I've never shot at -50F, but I'd like to get to the point where I can go shooting no matter what the temperature.

I know people have been hunting in very cold temperatures up here for a long time, so I'm guessing if there is potential danger it's in the "very unlikely but possible" category.

[woodsghost]

That sucks ^

Can ya'll give me the lowdown on some cheapish AR ammo I can stock up on...should I go with Wolf/Tula/another brand. I'd like to order 2k probably quite soon as storage and maybe bit more for plinking.

Depends on what you want to do with it. For making your gun go "bang," I'd say Wolf/Tula all the way.

For fighting or hunting, I would not go that route. The rounds don't fragment the way 5.56 is supposed to, and they don't push the bullet quite as fast.

For serous work, I"d look at PPU or IMI 5.56. Wolf Gold seems to be worth a look.

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-amm ... 556mm-ammo

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx? ... groupid=21

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/62391 ... 55gr_.html

I"d pay close attention to 55 gr. full 5.56 spec (M193 type ammo, rather than M855 type ammo). You get the most velocity, and therefor the most usable range. I'd also look for thinner jackets. Not sure what the Wolf Gold is using, but the rest of the components are higher quality, so the bullet itself is likely much better than their economy line.


Just poking around, and based on what the Military Arms Channel said, I suspect Wolf Gold is your best bet at the best price. But I did not do a full hog wild search for 5.56.

[chills1994]

I was at my local Gander Mountain about two weeeks ago and spotted a CZ75 with a threaded barrel in the used gun section. It looked like this:



It really caught my eye.

I want to say the price was in the high $400's.

I went back to look for it like 4 days later. GONE!

There was a clerk who I stopped to ask about it.

ME: There was a pistol in the used gun case a few days ago???

CLERK: You mean the CZ75?

ME: Yes, how did you know?

CLERK: I had my eye on it too.

ME: ha ha LOL!

CLERK: Yeah, sorry, it sold already

ME:

But in looking around the cyber webs, I discovered CZ does make a CZ75 SP01 with the rail in the same color with a threaded barrel and the same tall sights.

I am kinda left wondering if a Streamlight or Surefire laser/light combo could be attached to the rail and would it clear a suppressor...leaving the red laser dot to still project 20 or 30 feet away?

Or would Crimson Trace Laser grips with it's laser diode also clear a suppressor???

None of my guns have rails.

I am thinking that finding a kydex holster that would accomodate that tall of a front sight would be a real PITA. So swap out the sights for standard height ones which might be obscured by a suppressor, and using a rail laser light combo or crimson trace grips to "sight" or aim the pistola.

Look into the EAA Witness. They come in 9mm, .45ACP, .40, .38 Super, 10mm, and .22lr.
All on the same frame, as in if you wish to swap calibers just buy the slide/barrel assembly and some new mags.
Based on the CZ-75.
Price point between $400-$500.
They have them with steel frames or polymer.

If you're not rocking a GLOCK then you should be looking at an EAA Witness.

...end Fanboi rant

There are a couple of USPSA competitors that are doing quite well with the EAA Witness'es. Ben Stoeger is one of them.

I am not really into Glocks.

I will have to poke around CZ's website and EAA's website. I think EAA offers more guns in stainless than CZ.

[0122358]

ok hive mind. I have a problem.

I got a Magpul maglink for the AR pmags, and I cannot for the life of me get it to bolt down with the screws provided, there doesn't seem to be any threads for the screws to grip on to? What am I doing wrong?

Also bought an AR lower and a browning hi-power at the gunshow today.

[Stercutus]

Mosin Range Card from the Big One

http://weaponsman.com/?p=36180

[Langenator]

I was at my local Gander Mountain about two weeeks ago and spotted a CZ75 with a threaded barrel in the used gun section. It looked like this:



It really caught my eye.

I want to say the price was in the high $400's.

I went back to look for it like 4 days later. GONE!

There was a clerk who I stopped to ask about it.

ME: There was a pistol in the used gun case a few days ago???

CLERK: You mean the CZ75?

ME: Yes, how did you know?

CLERK: I had my eye on it too.

ME: ha ha LOL!

CLERK: Yeah, sorry, it sold already

ME:

But in looking around the cyber webs, I discovered CZ does make a CZ75 SP01 with the rail in the same color with a threaded barrel and the same tall sights.

I am kinda left wondering if a Streamlight or Surefire laser/light combo could be attached to the rail and would it clear a suppressor...leaving the red laser dot to still project 20 or 30 feet away?

Or would Crimson Trace Laser grips with it's laser diode also clear a suppressor???

None of my guns have rails.

I am thinking that finding a kydex holster that would accomodate that tall of a front sight would be a real PITA. So swap out the sights for standard height ones which might be obscured by a suppressor, and using a rail laser light combo or crimson trace grips to "sight" or aim the pistola.

Look into the EAA Witness. They come in 9mm, .45ACP, .40, .38 Super, 10mm, and .22lr.
All on the same frame, as in if you wish to swap calibers just buy the slide/barrel assembly and some new mags.
Based on the CZ-75.
Price point between $400-$500.
They have them with steel frames or polymer.

If you're not rocking a GLOCK then you should be looking at an EAA Witness.

...end Fanboi rant

There are a couple of USPSA competitors that are doing quite well with the EAA Witness'es. Ben Stoeger is one of them.

I am not really into Glocks.

I will have to poke around CZ's website and EAA's website. I think EAA offers more guns in stainless than CZ.

The CZ-75 pretty much rules the field in IPSC on the other side of the Atlantic. If I wasn't so heavily invested in the M&P platform, I'd be all over a SP-01 for USPSA and 3-gun.

[Langenator]

I"d pay close attention to 55 gr. full 5.56 spec (M193 type ammo, rather than M855 type ammo). You get the most velocity, and therefor the most usable range. I'd also look for thinner jackets. Not sure what the Wolf Gold is using, but the rest of the components are higher quality, so the bullet itself is likely much better than their economy line.


Just poking around, and based on what the Military Arms Channel said, I suspect Wolf Gold is your best bet at the best price. But I did not do a full hog wild search for 5.56.

55 gr isn't necessarily going to give you the best performance at distance. There's a reason the 75/77 gr loads rule the line at Camp Perry - those heavier (and thus longer, with better BC) bullets don't start out going as fast, but they retain velocity much better than the 55s or 62s, and thus have less drop as you get further out.

I'm pretty sure PPU/Wolf Gold offers 'match' loads in both 69 and 75 grain

[the_alias]

For fighting or hunting, I would not go that route. The rounds don't fragment the way 5.56 is supposed to, and they don't push the bullet quite as fast.

Thanks for the feedback and info - I'm going to probably get some WolfGold.

This statement though - I mean part of my brain is just going "Getting shot with any kind of bullet is going to suck from a rifle" - in terms of stopping a threat in whatever hypothetical what kind of difference do you think it will make Steel vs non steel? Putting holes in raiders/zombies/badguys is the goal right.

Now in my handgun I'm loaded with Critical Duty, no question, but I also am not SHTF stocking it either for cost reasons.

On another note up the Strike Industries Curved foregrip on:

[MacWa77ace]

ok hive mind. I have a problem.

I got a Magpul maglink for the AR pmags, and I cannot for the life of me get it to bolt down with the screws provided, there doesn't seem to be any threads for the screws to grip on to? What am I doing wrong?

Also bought an AR lower and a browning hi-power at the gunshow today.

I just bought my first one also and had the same issue. On mine there was something in one of the bolt holes blocking the bolt from entering the first set of threads on the nut. I assumed it was some of the polymer and had to force the bolt thru that. Try separating the two halves and running the bolts into the nuts that way first.

There are nuts embedded in the polymer on the female side.

I also spent about a minute finding the exact spot on the mags for it to fit. You have to get the front to back orientation right, and the location vertically also it seemed.

Let me know if you can't find the sweet spot and i'll take a picture of where it worked for me. Once I got it on its rock solid.

[woodsghost]

55 gr isn't necessarily going to give you the best performance at distance. There's a reason the 75/77 gr loads rule the line at Camp Perry - those heavier (and thus longer, with better BC) bullets don't start out going as fast, but they retain velocity much better than the 55s or 62s, and thus have less drop as you get further out.

I'm pretty sure PPU/Wolf Gold offers 'match' loads in both 69 and 75 grain[/quote]

No argument here on accuracy and wind resistance. It seems the terminal performance is very very good too, based on what I read from the AR15.com Ammo Oracle. If The Alias has the cash to put away 2000 rounds of it, I"d support that 100%. Especially stuff in the 75+ gr range. For that matter, hollow point or soft point ammo would be options, and they work better at putting game and bad guys down despite lower velocities at range.

For fighting or hunting, I would not go that route. The rounds don't fragment the way 5.56 is supposed to, and they don't push the bullet quite as fast.

Thanks for the feedback and info - I'm going to probably get some WolfGold.

This statement though - I mean part of my brain is just going "Getting shot with any kind of bullet is going to suck from a rifle" - in terms of stopping a threat in whatever hypothetical what kind of difference do you think it will make Steel vs non steel? Putting holes in raiders/zombies/badguys is the goal right.

I hear ya. The really short answer is "not all ammo is made the same, and regular Wolf is not made to behave the way regular 5.56 is supposed to." The longer answer follows:

We preach and preach "long guns rule the day!!!!" But not all long gun ammo is equal in performance. 5.56 works well when it fragments. The Wolf standard stuff has a thicker jacket, lower velocity, and so it retains it's weight and fails to fragment. It flips once so the rear end faces forward, and carries on through the target. Thus it is analogous to a .22. Now, I'd rather not get shot with a .22, if given the choice, but choosing the standard Wolf stuff means one is choosing an inferior product, if hunting and fighting are your goals. If you want to make holes in paper, it is a rather good choice. But here is one of the best sources on this stuff:

www.ar15.com/ammo/

And another site with all the same information, but in expanded format.

ammo-oracle.razoreye.net/

Let me draw your attention to their article on Wolf .223.

www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_wolfdef.html

The key to 5.56 ammo effectiveness is fragmentation. This releases energy and the bullet fragments do permanent tissue damage, stopping your quarry. The faster the round is going, the more full the fragmentation and the more effective the terminal effects. Below a certain threshold 5.56 stops fragmenting, which is where it basically becomes a .22. Now, 5.56 rounds can still fragment below the normal fragmentation velocity threshold, but only if it hits bone. This is not to be counted on when using a round in a defensive or hunting role. At that point, you are simply hoping your bullet hits bone, and happens to also fragment. Both are probabilistic, and therefore not to be counted on.

www.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_2700.html


Hope this helps! I"d spend some time reading the Ammo Oracle and really get to know 5.56 ballistics and what affects them.

[woodsghost]

Crap!!!

Forgot to ask, what is the twist rate of your rifle? 1:12 is optimized for lightweight bullets. 1:9 is a compromise for heavy and light. 1:7 is optimized for heavier bullets.

I focus on terminal performance. But the best accuracy will depend on your twist rate.

[the_alias]

Crap!!!

Forgot to ask, what is the twist rate of your rifle? 1:12 is optimized for lightweight bullets. 1:9 is a compromise for heavy and light. 1:7 is optimized for heavier bullets.

I focus on terminal performance. But the best accuracy will depend on your twist rate.

Thanks for the super detailed post, I will do some reading over the next few days.

1:7 barrel - so if I want that accuracy I should be going for heavier grains I guess.

The 1000 rounds of Tula arrived so that will be training ammo going forward and I'll invest in some more heavy duty stuff, perhaps at a slower rate.

[quazi]

Crap!!!

Forgot to ask, what is the twist rate of your rifle? 1:12 is optimized for lightweight bullets. 1:9 is a compromise for heavy and light. 1:7 is optimized for heavier bullets.

I focus on terminal performance. But the best accuracy will depend on your twist rate.

Thanks for the super detailed post, I will do some reading over the next few days.

1:7 barrel - so if I want that accuracy I should be going for heavier grains I guess.

The 1000 rounds of Tula arrived so that will be training ammo going forward and I'll invest in some more heavy duty stuff, perhaps at a slower rate.

My understanding is that while 1:7 is better for stabilizing relatively heavy bullets it will also usually stabilize the medium weight stuff (~55 grain) just fine. You might run into problems if you try to shoot the really light weight varmint bullets, but even then it's not really a sure thing until you try it out. (I definitely wouldn't go buying a case of .223 loaded with 45 grain bullets without making sure, but they don't usually sell that stuff by the case anyway.)

From what people say the heavier bullets are more accurate, but I would guess that you'll probably see more of an accuracy difference between target ammo and bulk ammo of the same weight than you will between 55 grain and 77 grain of the same quality. It's definitely worth testing different weights out though.

Barrel length also plays a role. My understanding is that a longer barrel can get away with a slower twist rate than a shorter barrel, but only too an extent.

Some of the long range competitors who are restricted to .223 are doing things like loading over max pressure with 90 grain bullets and they have to single-load because their overall length is too long to feed from the magazine. I think some of those guys are using 1:6 or 1:6.5 twist rates.

[woodsghost]

quazi has good advice. Go ahead and try the 55gr stuff. Often a rifle/ammo combo is more accurate than the shooter. If you print acceptable groups, then all is good. You could get a box of the 69-77 gr stuff and see if you really notice any real difference. If your groups don't change that much, or are already acceptable with the 55gr, then stick with the cheaper stuff.

[Stercutus]

55gr should be fine. I would not shoot anything lighter in anything less than a 1:9.