The 3rd Gun

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SavageArcher
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The 3rd Gun

Post by SavageArcher » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:15 pm

I've been thinking of the pros and cons of having a third weapon along if bugging out into the boonies. Sidearms are a given and I'm more intrested in what would be a choice between long arms. I'm excluding breakdown .22s like the AR-7, Marlin Papooose, and M-6 for the most part becasue they are light and packable enough that if you wanted they could fill in as a 4th gun.

I'm curious what two longarms would you consider and how they would compliment one another. Long range punch + short range firepower or long range firepower+short range punch, you get the picture.

I know weight is a consideration, especially if on foot. I'm looking at a scenerio where you are far enough in the wilds, that hunting big game is an option. Roving bands of hostiles are also a possiblity and a perment camp isn't feasible.

I know this subject has been brought up before and but I'm not totally satisified with the results. I want to understand which combos people endorse and why.

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Post by Brianww2e45 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:29 pm

I have my primary, a pistol, and a light single barrel twelve gauge. With it, 00 buck, a few bird shot, and some slugs.

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Post by tommygun » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:19 pm

If this 3rd weapon, is for hunting purposes mainly, then I have to endorse a 12 gauge shotgun. A shotgun, that takes 3" magnum loads, has removable chokes, and is known to be a durable reliable weapon, will be more useful than any other firearm. If you're looking for a duel purpose weapon, for hunting, and offencive/defencive purposes, then you're looking at a auto loading rifle. The reason I support a shotgun, is because you can use it for hunting anything that walks, crawls, or flies in North America, and the ammo is readily available. Just my opinion, I hope it helps.
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Post by SamB » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:22 pm

If I was going for a third weapon I would go with a 12 guage shotgun with interchangable chokes and a folding stock of some sort. Granted, I have not had any experience with such stocks, but I think I'd want to strap my third gun to the side of my pack, and anything thats not a pistol grip with or without a folding stock would be too long.

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Post by SavageArcher » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:51 pm

Great suggestions guys. For myself I was thinking more along the lines for a high power rifle say a scope sighted boltaction with a carbine for backup. I'm all for avoiding close combat, they didn't train many squids for that in the Navy. The shotgun does seem a hard gun to beat and inconjuction with an accurate carbine would also make a good combo, but you sacrifice range.

Folding stocks on 12 gauges are IMHO, a pain. I mean that in every sense of the word. I'm sure there are better stocks out there now but 15 years ago they sucked.

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Post by BHP » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:54 pm

Fighting rifle
Service sized pistol
.22 rifle

I would have to go with the .22 because it has the greatest utility in my mind. I see it's role primarily as gathering food and you will see quite a bit more small game than large. Add to this the fact that a .22 in the brain will drop medium and even large game and I feel it has far greater utility than the shotgun.

Yes it's true I am not at all a fan of the shotgun for survival or even combat. It is a sporting arm.

Forget the idea of harvesting game birds on the fly, pop them where they rest. The idea of sport hunting is flawed when it comes to survival. There are yet two more reasons I favor the .22 lr for survival. First is the obvious fact that ammunition is light enough and small enough to make it practical to carry a sufficient quantity. The last reason I am somewhat hesitant to mention but I feel I must to be complete and that is that you can suppress a small caliber low pressure round like the .22 fairly easily. The rifle with a scope is easiest actually. Now let me add that it is a serious issue to manufacture such a device without proper approval but in many states it can be done by an individual with prior approval from the BATF&E. Fill out the form one and send it off with your $200 check and when it is returned with approval you are good. If there were none of our current restrictions and their consequences or if the situation is dire enough to warrant it that would be a different matter however.

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Post by Doctor Jest » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:51 pm

BHP wrote:Fighting rifle
Service sized pistol
.22 rifle
Yep.
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Post by 2now » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:24 pm

How about a high capacity carbine in the same caliber has your hand gun, and the best long range rifle you can carry, something with lots of punch and accuracy.

The other obvious choice for a third gun is one of my favorite bug out guns, the T/C contender or T/C encore.

Super accurate, pistol or carbine, and as many calibers as you care to get barrels.
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Post by Dak Kovar » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:33 pm

If I am walking from NV to NY I'm talking my AR carbine both for protection and game. If I'm walking that far I'm walkin in a PAW so the barrel on my Ithaca would be shorter and it would have a pistol grip only and a neck sling. That would be my "side arm". I wouldn't take a dump without having it within arms reach. My third gun would be my old 8" bull barrel Ruger MKII. I'd be feeding myself with that. I came to this conclusion a long time ago after a lot of trial and error. It is just the right answer for me.

Best thing to do is try it for yourself for real someplace where having so many guns on one person wont bring the feds. :)
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Post by numberthree » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:02 am

I think that anyone thinking about carrying 3 guns should try it out first. Pack everything you'd carry on an indefinite bug-out, and then add 3 guns and their ammo and accessories. Now go for a hardcore hike that lasts more than a couple of hours. Pretend you have to run from some zombies or something. Climb something high. Crawl under a fence. Fall in a creek. I'm betting that most people are going to pare that down to 2 guns or less in short order. It'd be a shame to find out that you're carrying too much when it really matters. Though I suppose the abandoned piles of gear will be handy after the PAW, so thanks for that at least.... :D
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Post by Blasphemous » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:51 am

I have my SKS for a defense carbine, Mosin 91/30 for distance shooting, Mauser 8mm for hunting, Remmy 870 Mag for a shotty and going to be getting a 1911 for a sidearm.
If I had to pick just ONE weapon... The shotty.
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Post by BHP » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:00 am

I can see I will have to start a thread discussing the failings of shotguns as a serious fighting and survival arm.

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Post by artyboy » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:07 am

I'll be taking my USP 9mm and my AK. I've been seriously thinking about picking up a Springfield M-6 or a Henry AR-7 for my backpack. I'll make sure that someone in my group carries a shotgun but it won't be me. Take numberthree's advice sometime and I think that most of you would change your mind about carrying more than one long gun.
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Post by SavageArcher » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:19 am

I admit a 3rd gun is a luxury if you are on foot. An addintional longun is probably an easy 15 lbs extra when you figure ammo and accessories. However if you are good at living off the land and can travel light to begin with, you could probably keep your total loadout at or just under 50 lbs. This isn't taking the 3rd gun into consideration. So I can see the cost in weight another weapon brings into the equation.

You would either have to lose 10-15 lbs of other gear or just learn to train with the extra weight. It's a tough decision.

Keep up with the suggestions guys. This gives me ideas for future posts dealing with essential gear and weapon selections. Thanks in advance.

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Post by artyboy » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:28 am

SavageArcher wrote:I admit a 3rd gun is a luxury if you are on foot. An addintional longun is probably an easy 15 lbs extra when you figure ammo and accessories. However if you are good at living off the land and can travel light to begin with, you could probably keep your total loadout at or just under 50 lbs. This isn't taking the 3rd gun into consideration. So I can see the cost in weight another weapon brings into the equation.
I wouldn't exactly call it a luxury :lol:. You're right about living off the land, though. If I could get the weight down then I'd consider carrying an extra gun. If I could carry it securely then it wouldn't be as big a deal to me. Carrying two long guns on a sling is a real PITA, though. I'd need something that could either fit in my backpack or that I could easily strap securely to the outside of it.
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Post by BHP » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:43 pm

lightweight .22 with a take down or folding stock, 500-1000 rounds would not weigh 10 pounds and would offer tremendous utility.

And I was the kind of soldier that would crop half the handle off my toothbrush to save weight. Believe me, I understand the demands on the foot mobile.

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Post by TEC9man » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:45 pm

SamB wrote:If I was going for a third weapon I would go with a 12 guage shotgun with interchangable chokes and a folding stock of some sort. Granted, I have not had any experience with such stocks, but I think I'd want to strap my third gun to the side of my pack, and anything thats not a pistol grip with or without a folding stock would be too long.
That's my thought too. I've got my Saiga, sidearm and a folding stock mossy 500 I plan to make a scabbard and put on the side of my pack.
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Post by Jeriah » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:18 am

1. Military style combat rifle, such as an AR, AK, G3, or FAL.
2. Semiautomatic pistol such as a SIG, Glock, Springfield XD, HK, 1911, etc.
3. .22 Surival Rifle such as the Henry AR7
4. 12 gauge pump action shotgun such as Rem 870 or Moss 500

If your primary concern is killing other men (or zombies) you want a rifle.

If your circumstances are such that you cant have a rifle (must be concealed, your rifles broken, you:re driving, etc), good to have a pistol.

If your primary concern is hunting small game, use a .22. I like the AR7. Useless for combat.

If you need one gun to serve for both hunting and combat, get a 12 gauge. If you already have a rifle, a pistol, and a 22, the shotgun fills in by being better than the rifle or pistol for close combat, better than the 22 for birds and arguably small game, and can take larger game if your rifle isn:t up to it.
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Post by JRod » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:35 am

Here's my dream loadout. Which in reality is masturbation for my brain, but I'm posting this more for the concept of the thread than to fantasize.

Primary Weapon: 5.56x45mm "Assault Rifle". Something Stoner based. Right now I have a SU-16C, in the future a self built AR platform would replace it. At least an 18" barrel, this carbine nonsense is rediculous. The 5.56x45mm needs all the velocity I can give it. Could be replaced with an AK or FAL type weapon based on personal preference.

Pistol: Not sure here. I want both a CCW pistol like a small Kel-Tec PF-9 and a full size duty pistol like a 1911. This slot would be determined by the mission. Candidates are a 1911, Kel-Tec PF-9, or maybe even that badass tactical S&W someone posted the other day.

Other weapons: This is where the real problem lies with me. You talk about a 3rd weapon, but it would be more mission dependent than any either of my first two choices. In many instances I won't take anything. That said here a few ideas.
Ruger Mark II/III - Survival pistol. Small, lightweight, and just accurate to hunt with (small game)
Serbu Super Shorty - Remington 870 based shotgun that isn't much bigger than a full sized pistol. Could be carried on a drop leg holster with an assortment of shells for various purposes. Flares, entry rounds, 00 buck, and less-than-lethal would all be handy.
"Sniper" Rifle - I put sniper in quotations because it means different things to different people. For me it could mean a break down .50 (in my dreams) or a nice .308. Basically this would be lugged around until in position, then lugged out.

Thoughts? :?:
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Post by BHP » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:45 am

JRod, no real problem with what you posted but we have a Serbu Shorty type here (2 actually) and it is one hell of a lot larger thaqn a service size handgun. Hell, it's much larger than the Desert Eagle even and the DE has little practical utility (if any).

You could carry it in a holster but it is really pushing the envelope.

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Post by Geiger » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:20 am

well, since i cant say a pocket death star, id go with a small shotgun. hicks in Aliens ...... some on i cant be the only aliens fan here.....
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Post by Da Law » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:23 pm

"I like to keep this for close encounters."

Ithica Model 37.

As for my choices....

5.56 evil black rifle.....(My issued one is green though...YUK!)
.40 cal service pistol or two.
.22LR semi auto rifle or .22LR conversion kit for the 5.56.
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Post by JRod » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:19 pm

Da Law wrote:.22LR semi auto rifle or .22LR conversion kit for the 5.56.
Oooo, forgot about those. Kimber also makes one for most 1911's. That would certainly be a little lighter than a whole seperate gun.
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Post by Tomcat1066 » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:56 pm

CZ has the Kadet conversion for the CZ 75B as well.

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