585 HE -- Cases In Production --

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hubel458
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585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:23 am

585 HE ---Tested Super Strong --

If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels
of cases and more coming.

We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of 440gr- 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work great

First picture shows it next to 505 Gibbs, it has same overall
loaded length as a Gibbs. Holds up to 190gr ball powder
under bullets...

Next pic is a barrel of cases..

Third representative of types of guns we have it in.Ed

Image.

Image.

Image.

hubel458
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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:40 am

We get concerns about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each,
once you have cases. Folks can get 100 cases, dies, barrel
to put in something for 750 bucks..
Asked about #1, And perfect case for the Ruger #1.
The very few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted than rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed

ImageEd

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:16 am

Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked
needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are
about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage..

Image

The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them.

Image

Image

Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses
a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not balloon head junk cases.

Image

We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:23 am

WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own stamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge.
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

Image

Image

Image

Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr
wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:01 am

In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.

Image

Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns,
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example..

Image

And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength.
because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the manufacturing process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems.

Image

Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use
the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as
accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:42 pm

Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy
in AUS that has a reamer I sent him.

We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.

Image

WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.

Image

We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also
and there is video on ytube-- URL below-- Ed

Image



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:15 am

We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him..

Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie
Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal
pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500.
Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad.

Image

Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a
one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy
loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand.

Image

Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow
twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for
deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless.

Image

Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a
nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad.
Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight.
You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by crypto » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:11 am

Wow, I can't even comprehend shooting that monster out of something as light as a NEF break barrel.

I'm interested in how you managed to make that work, actually. I'm guessing that to monoblock it, you first manufacture barrels with a breech O.D. that's the same as the forcing cone of the 12ga barrel? Then cut the NEF barrel a few inches past the breech, and stuff the new barrel in? How is it joined, is it soldered in like a shotgun?
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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by Kutter_0311 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:43 pm

Am I back in Hawai'i? I think I smell spam...
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by E » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:29 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:Am I back in Hawai'i? I think I smell spam...
He had a 12 gauge from hell thread somewhere around here.

He's also posted on a couple other forums

I think it's just a guy making a new (awesome) wildcat cartridge.

If I absolutely positively had to kill a T-Rex, buffalo, and bull moose with one shot, I'd want this rifle :crazy:
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for."

Once you dread potential danger
You are bound by fear...
Fear is the only enemy.
Face the enemy

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by colinz » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:58 pm

E wrote: If I absolutely positively had to kill a T-Rex, buffalo, and bull moose with one shot, I'd want this rifle :crazy:
Especially if you were shooting through the T-rex, then the buffalo and then the bull moose in a line! :crazy:

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by crypto » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:57 pm

Kutter_0311 wrote:Am I back in Hawai'i? I think I smell spam...
wildcat cartridges spread via word of mouth. He's got this thread posted on a couple forums along with the 12ga from hell thread, but I dont care because I dont read those other forums. I find this process interesting as hell.
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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by canuckdiver » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:08 pm

To the OP:

I have an older H&R handi-rifle break action. Do you think this would be a suitable basis for this cartridge? These were available in some very hefty calibers, and for a break action, its pretty damn heavy...

:twisted:

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:11 pm

This is sexy as hell. BRB gotta sell a kidney.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by E » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:49 pm

colinz wrote:
E wrote: If I absolutely positively had to kill a T-Rex, buffalo, and bull moose with one shot, I'd want this rifle :crazy:
Especially if you were shooting through the T-rex, then the buffalo and then the bull moose in a line! :crazy:
That's exactly what I was implying

Very much want. My shoulder tingles at the thought of that much recoil
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for."

Once you dread potential danger
You are bound by fear...
Fear is the only enemy.
Face the enemy

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:59 pm

The NEFs we use are large diameter barrel ones, the SB2 frame.
That is the one used for 12ga Ultra and newer heavy barrel 10ga.
SB2 only. No older ones. SB2 is high alloy and heat treated.
We cut barrels off to make mono-block- drill and thread and screw
in 585 up to a shoulder on the 585 barrel. Never come apart.
We run 40,000 psi in them just fine, 650 gr at 2400.They
can be weighted up to 12lbs and shoot nice.

Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.

Image

Image

Here is picture, 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:09 pm

Any chance y'all have video of one of those beasts being fired ?

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by Sworbeyegib » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:15 pm

All I can say is hot damn. Luckily there isn't anything so big on this island that I would need one of those things.
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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by eeb » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:51 pm

Sworbeyegib wrote:All I can say is hot damn. Luckily there isn't anything so big on this island that I would need one of those things.
That you know of ;)

How difficult would it be for another small manufacturer to produce components? Patent or copyright issues to contend with? I have a contact that may or may not be interested, figured reducing overtime to the legal department might make it more attractive. This kind of specialty monster ammo might interest the powers that be at the company, but licensing hassles could be a real stumbling block considering the limited market.

E.T.A. After a series of PMs, it seems that there aren't any patent or licensing hassles to deal with, opening the door for other manufacturers to produce components if they choose. Interweb chatter regarding those issues with the 300Whisper had me concerned, though that may have been a misunderstanding. Anyhoo...
"Illegal spying is not a crime. Well, it is, but fuck it."-NSA

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:02 am

On Youtube 1st one a guy shooting one in NEf, type in hubel Express.
Their will be lot more as guys get guns done and weather clears.

No restrictions on anybody building guns, bullets, etc, in fact i want everybody
building them and making bullets, loaded cases, etc. al lI care about is
use same specs for dies, reamers cases, etc, in fact I 'd like Ruger to do it
in their #1, etc and Hornady to load rounds for it. They work together on other stuff.

Also would like a bunch of smiths get reamers and cases and go ar it.


Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.

Image

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.

Image

Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed

Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:09 am

Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone.

Image

We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic
1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper
Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at
high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in
same gun with inserts.

Image


Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585
barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.


Image

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:41 pm

You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.

Image

Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
easy like the new ones from Bertram.

Image

Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.

There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.
We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
For the 585 it comes out about 10

Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi

Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
but kept it all simple

ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi

The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by spyderco monkey » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:45 am

Wow, did the math on that 1600gr subsonic load - 3900ft/lbs!

You should talk to one of the suppressor companies about this, they would love it, and it would make for some great press. 8-)

Wishing you tons of luck on the project.

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Re: 585 HE -- Cases In Production --

Post by hubel458 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:47 pm

I have sent cases to 2 fellows who are working on it right now,
with guns they have. .
And any of the other guns I have here and out there with regular 585HE case
can do a whisper just by setting the long bullet real deep in our straight sided case.
The case is perfectly parallel inside so bullets can go down in a couple inches.
You can do a whisper with 750-800, 1200, 1600 gr, etc and in our long case don't
take a lot of powder to just get 1050 fps.

IE; any of our regular 585HE chambers can be used for whisper load.

Those 2 who got cases have guns set up for the 14.5mm Russian and similar and are putting in
inserts to shoot the whisper type loads as well as full power 585HE loads, a lot cheaper
shooting 585HE than expensive 14.5, hard to find surplus that is usually steel cases and
don't reload easy.Ed

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