The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Phoenix David » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:14 pm

maldon007 wrote:
Braxton14 wrote: Image
I don't know... It looks very full auto.





:roll:
And it has that shoulder thing that goes up.

Consult with a gun lawyer.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by zombieresponder » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:15 pm

Turtlewolf wrote:Yup, lawyer up. They are interfering with a legal transfer and if thier "expert" is anything like the RCMP "experts" they'll be there with a dremmel tool and anything else they need to make it full automatic.
Your FFL sold you out.
ATF has been caught in the past doing things to make a firearm malfunction as a full auto, and then convicting people based on the altered "evidence". One of these instances was caught on videotape, and the tape is the only reason the individual did not go to jail.

I would:

1. Stop talking to either the dealer or the ATF
2. Obtain a lawyer
3. Find a new FFL

The dealer will do whatever it takes to protect his business and himself. The ATF wants to fine someone and/or put someone in jail.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by shiddymunkie » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:46 pm

From what I understand, even if the ATF determined that this firearm was full auto (or could be "readily converted" to full auto), there is still no crime on your part in purchasing the firearm (assuming you already paid for it). The crime comes if you possess such an item without a stamp, a subtle but important difference. It's the same with silencers -- you can purchase a silencer from a Class III dealer before you have stamp, and effectively own it, so long as that dealer "possesses it" for you until you get your stamp back from the BATFE. IANAL/AFAIK, but nothing you've done thus far could be considered a crime even in the worst case scenario.

Never the less, I'd definitely find a good gun lawyer and see if they will agree to a free consultation (some will do this). Or at the very least, have their phone number readily available until everything gets sorted out.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Wormjello » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:57 pm

I just hope you didn't mention the Zombie Squad forum, weren't wearing any ZS merchandise and didn't show them your ZS ID card. Just sayin...
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by MacAttack » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:54 pm

I am just wondering how this all started. The AFT just doesn't show up for the fun of it.

Please correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it....

First the buyer puts in the order for the semi-auto firearm with the manufacturer. No need for the ATF at this point.
The builder (if they do not already have the weapon built and serialized) sends their design for the semi-auto weapon.
The ATF approves the design(other wise the builder can not build it) and sends their letter back stating so. All build designs and paperwork go on record and in storage.
The builder builds the weapon recording the new serial weapon.
The weapon is sent off to the buyers FFL.


If you went with a builder who has previously built the same weapon then the design was already approved by the ATF before your build, unless the design changed(which is doubtful). The ATF might just be making a somewhat routine check on a small manufacturer.

If you went with someone who has never built a weapon like this then this might just be a final check on the weapon to make sure the design was followed correctly and the weapon does not fire full auto. They are not checking to make sure the weapon is safe or works at all.


In either of these cases it doesn't look like you were the intended target(yet). If they wanted you they would have made sure the weapon was full-auto and arrested you when you took possession.
If they wanted the manufacturer they could have stopped it in transit and inspected it. No one would have known except the package would have been delayed an extra day.

This sounds like a routine random check. More than likely a new guy in Washington noticing the build and sending some locals out to look it over.


Otherwise how in the heck could Red Jacket get away with the builds they do? They would have the ATF down inspecting them every week.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by offcamber » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:01 pm

MacAttack wrote:I am just wondering how this all started. The AFT just doesn't show up for the fun of it.
It really sounds to me like the FFL sold the OP out. Probably saw it as a big scary gun then made the call to make sure the shop was covered.

Then, the ATF wasn't well versed with this particular firearm and thus the two week hold while more calls, ID etc are made to make sure everything is on the up and up for all parties involved.

Hopefully it has a happy ending.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Braxton14 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:39 am

The amount of insight that I've received from you guys is why I made this thread. I really thought this would be just like any other transfer that I've done and have never been in this kind of situation before, so i figured I'd ask you guys that are more seasoned than me (an almost 3 year gun owner)

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by TDW586 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:10 am

Don't stress too much, man. There's some good advice in this thread, but you haven't done anything illegal and there's been no accusation that you have. If there is something illegal about that gun, it is between the manufacturer and the ATF, and possibly the FFL. Before you pick it up, ask the FFL or if necessary the ATF agents who investigated for written confirmation from the ATF that it's legal. Don't complete the transfer without a copy.

If you are accused of anything or the ATF attempts to question you, politely request to confer with a lawyer before answering any questions, and have your attorney answer any questions or at least be present when you answer.

Other than that, don't stress. Most likely just a routine ATF check of a "scary" weapon for technical compliance with NFA law.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:17 am

Phoenix David wrote:
maldon007 wrote:
Braxton14 wrote: Image
I don't know... It looks very full auto.





:roll:
And it has that shoulder thing that goes up.

Consult with a gun lawyer.
And don't forget the evil pistol grip!
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:31 am

offcamber wrote:
MacAttack wrote:I am just wondering how this all started. The AFT just doesn't show up for the fun of it.
It really sounds to me like the FFL sold the OP out. Probably saw it as a big scary gun then made the call to make sure the shop was covered.

Then, the ATF wasn't well versed with this particular firearm and thus the two week hold while more calls, ID etc are made to make sure everything is on the up and up for all parties involved.

Hopefully it has a happy ending.
Yeah, don't automatically assume that because someone works a gun shop, or even owns one that they will be...

A. Conversant will accepted and legal practices with regards to legal firearms.

B. Heartily approving of what you are transferring thru their FFL.

Case in point was my first FAL. Had it transferred to a then-local garage FFL guy. He was giving me the fisheye VERY hard when I went to pick it up. Turns out he had never even heard of an FAL, and the looks of it scared the bejeezus out of him. Didn't help that the selector lever readily turned to the FA position(he was actually playing with my rifle when I showed up! :evil: ), and I had to do some fast talking to convince him that all FAL's in the US did that, and that didn't make it a machinegun.

I think the only thing that saved me from a 'lights-on' visit from a Sheriff's Deputy was him calling a friend who knew FAL's, who essentially told him the same thing AND what a dumbass he was for not educating himself.

Needless to say, I never used that guy again.

I think there is a very good chance that the FFL in question opened the shipping box, saw the weapon, but actually saw this...

Image

And flipped his ever-loving wig! I'm thinking he probably almost broke a finger in his haste in dialing the BATFE to protect himself, and get some daylight between you and him in case you were some kind of Caucasian Osama wannabee.

-urban
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Phoenix David » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:42 am

URBAN ASSAULT wrote:I think there is a very good chance that the FFL in question opened the shipping box, saw the weapon, but actually saw this...

Image

-urban
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Jsimmonsgr » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:57 am

As a gunsmith who WORKS at a FFL, my advise to you is...

1. Find a new FFL, a FFL has NO RESPONSIBILITY to contact the atf on a SEMI AUTO weapon. If the FFL in question did, and the owner stating that he ' didn't know that was coming' does bring some credibility to this, then DO NOT USE THAT FFL.

2. In the future, might want to point out that the original 1919A4 .30 cal Machinegun was a 'open bolt' gun, not a 'closed bolt' semi-auto. Show them the manual, let them try to fire dummy cartridges, and be polite.

3. Get a lawyer who is well versed in Class III weapons and in guns in general, have him raise a stink about infringing on second amendment rights, about ill trained officers, and about 'harassment' mention there may be a lawsuit in the works if this is not resolved.


I have seen this kind of crap with my customers, most recently over a Vz 61 .32 pistol, that some dumbass ( another customer I assume, might have been one of the snowbirds. Don't know a damn thing about guns, and love to bitch.) called PD over, and THEY called ATF. I spend an hour convincing them it was not a 'machinegun' and in the end was only able to convince them bu test firing it into my test barrel. They STILL harassed my customer and gave him shit, ' why the hell do you want/need a gun that looks like that, thats stupid/ your a dumbass/ ect'. I eventually told them to GTFO of my store unless they either A. had a real concern or B. wanted a civil rights lawsuit. They left in a hurry.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:17 am

Phoenix David wrote:
URBAN ASSAULT wrote:I think there is a very good chance that the FFL in question opened the shipping box, saw the weapon, but actually saw this...

Image

-urban
Awsome! :clap: good thing this was a work keyboard
:lol: Danke.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Braxton14 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:52 pm

URBAN ASSAULT wrote: I think there is a very good chance that the FFL in question opened the shipping box, saw the weapon, but actually saw this...

Image

And flipped his ever-loving wig! I'm thinking he probably almost broke a finger in his haste in dialing the BATFE to protect himself, and get some daylight between you and him in case you were some kind of Caucasian Osama wannabee.

-urban
[/quote][/quote]

lololol! Btw, I ordered a slide fire and bumpski stock for a couple of guns that i was planning on using at that range/shop since they allow rapid fire..I don't think that I will anymore tho lol..They'd probably have my 2 favorite agents back again

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by ashwednesday » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:12 pm

Trebor wrote:Get a laywer immediately and have them contact the ATF on your behalf. The ATF is not something to mess around with, even if you are innocent, and especially if you are innocent.

Don't just trust that everything will just blow over because you bought a semi-auto. No telling what the tech guys will say and don't forget about the ATF definition of "readily convertable."

Seriously, lawyer up, now. Any expense is well worth the hassle you may avoid.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by crypto » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:22 pm

Jsimmonsgr wrote:As a gunsmith who WORKS at a FFL, my advise to you is...

1. Find a new FFL, a FFL has NO RESPONSIBILITY to contact the atf on a SEMI AUTO weapon. If the FFL in question did, and the owner stating that he ' didn't know that was coming' does bring some credibility to this, then DO NOT USE THAT FFL.

2. In the future, might want to point out that the original 1919A4 .30 cal Machinegun was a 'open bolt' gun, not a 'closed bolt' semi-auto. Show them the manual, let them try to fire dummy cartridges, and be polite.
I can definitely appreciate that, and I dont think theres much question that OP's FFL is really fucking dumb (I mean, how hard is it to do a function test with the trigger and charging handle?) but if he opened the box and thought "this is a machinegun" then he either had to call the ATF, or be part of what he thought was an illegal transfer.

I think Hanlon's Razor applies here: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I think the only malfeasance here was him panicking and telling ATF he wasnt expecting a machinegun. Which is a half-truth, since he was obviously expecting the weapon to arrive for the transfer, but I suspect he had no idea what a M1919 was and flipped his shit when it showed up.


Definitely time for a new FFL though once this all settles down, and then it would probably be a good time to let everyone and their brother know what a shithead the guy is.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by budliteguy » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:54 pm

If they are sending an "expert"out to look at it, I would want to be there too. When he/"she" looks at it/fires it. Actually even though you have paid for it, it still is not your property until the ATF forms are filled out and called in to the ATF and you have paid the transferring dealer to do the transfer and you have taken possession of it, It still belongs to the seller. As long as you have your paperwork/e-mails from the seller/builder you should be ok on the part stating that you ordered a semi- auto 1919a4. Not a full auto. If they ask question only give them straight to the point answer's don't add nothing to it. Remember no matter how nice they seem THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND. If the question get to the point of harassing/ threatening, tell them you would rather have your lawyer present before continuing with the question answer session. Dont sweet it. Its the A.T.F. rattling its sabre trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill like always. More than likely the ATF was there checking up on the dealer's records and that big box got delivered and those two women agents got nosey wondering what was in the box. Just like a women causing trouble!!!!!!!! But anyway find a new dealer. This one is a !!!!!!!!!!!!! well I cant use language like that on here.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by MacAttack » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:35 am

It NEVER struck me that the FFl would be the idiot to call the ATF. But that is starting to sound more and more like what logically happened.


How in the world would he not know what was coming in? I know my FFL's all want to know whats I have coming in to them and to have my name on the package also.

Maybe he thought it was a spelling mistake and you were ordering a 1911 and not a 1919.


Oh well its his business and his license. If he feels its OK tossing his customers under the bus then its his choice. Heck he didn't even know if the gun was legal or not, why would you be buying a full auto weapon through him without him knowing about is beyond me. Maybe it happens a lot, I don't know.

But there are other FFL's out there so once this is done just don't go back.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:23 am

budliteguy wrote:If they are sending an "expert"out to look at it, I would want to be there too. When he/"she" looks at it/fires it. Actually even though you have paid for it, it still is not your property until the ATF forms are filled out and called in to the ATF and you have paid the transferring dealer to do the transfer and you have taken possession of it, It still belongs to the seller. As long as you have your paperwork/e-mails from the seller/builder you should be ok on the part stating that you ordered a semi- auto 1919a4. Not a full auto. If they ask question only give them straight to the point answer's don't add nothing to it. Remember no matter how nice they seem THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND. If the question get to the point of harassing/ threatening, tell them you would rather have your lawyer present before continuing with the question answer session. Dont sweet it. Its the A.T.F. rattling its sabre trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill like always. More than likely the ATF was there checking up on the dealer's records and that big box got delivered and those two women agents got nosey wondering what was in the box. Just like a women causing trouble!!!!!!!! But anyway find a new dealer. This one is a !!!!!!!!!!!!! well I cant use language like that on here.
Yes, you need to be there when it is inspected. It is your property, so you do have some rights.

Bring someone with you who has a clean past who will be able to be deposed, and take the stand as a corroborating witness to what happens. Serious about this part.

Don't bring someone who has skeletons in their closet, because if this somehow goes pear-shaped(which you must plan for accordingly) their credibility can be chopped up in front of a jury. No one is perfect, but try to find the best person you can.

BRING A VIDEO CAMERA! Record every single thing they say to you(if possible), every single time they touch your weapon, this might be the ticket that keeps you out of prison.

Now do I believe that it is going to get this serious... no. I think they are either following a hunch because they(BATFE or FFL) saw a big scary gun, or there was a paperwork issue somewhere down the chain, and this is going to be resolved relatively quickly. BUT, if it isn't... you have to protect yourself at all times just like you are dealing with a big, stupid dog that might possibly have rabies.

I'm pulling for you, hope it turns out to be nothing.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by UndeadInfidel » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:46 am

Agreed, that FFL/shop sounds like a bunch of fucktards. It's their fault.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by ninja-elbow » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:47 pm

budliteguy wrote:If they are sending an "expert"out to look at it, I would want to be there too. When he/"she" looks at it/fires it. Actually even though you have paid for it, it still is not your property until the ATF forms are filled out and called in to the ATF and you have paid the transferring dealer to do the transfer and you have taken possession of it, It still belongs to the seller. As long as you have your paperwork/e-mails from the seller/builder you should be ok on the part stating that you ordered a semi- auto 1919a4. Not a full auto. If they ask question only give them straight to the point answer's don't add nothing to it. Remember no matter how nice they seem THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND. If the question get to the point of harassing/ threatening, tell them you would rather have your lawyer present before continuing with the question answer session. Dont sweet it. Its the A.T.F. rattling its sabre trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill like always. More than likely the ATF was there checking up on the dealer's records and that big box got delivered and those two women agents got nosey wondering what was in the box. Just like a women causing trouble!!!!!!!! But anyway find a new dealer. This one is a !!!!!!!!!!!!! well I cant use language like that on here.
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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by swany66675 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:10 pm

Find a new FFL and get a lawyer best advise on here. The ATF experts have been known to seize airsoft guns because they thought they could shoot real bullets. The ATF is flawed because it is ran by political appointments not people
Who are experts in what they govern.

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Braxton14 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:57 pm

URBAN ASSAULT wrote: Yes, you need to be there when it is inspected. It is your property, so you do have some rights.

Bring someone with you who has a clean past who will be able to be deposed, and take the stand as a corroborating witness to what happens. Serious about this part.

Don't bring someone who has skeletons in their closet, because if this somehow goes pear-shaped(which you must plan for accordingly) their credibility can be chopped up in front of a jury. No one is perfect, but try to find the best person you can.

BRING A VIDEO CAMERA! Record every single thing they say to you(if possible), every single time they touch your weapon, this might be the ticket that keeps you out of prison.

Now do I believe that it is going to get this serious... no. I think they are either following a hunch because they(BATFE or FFL) saw a big scary gun, or there was a paperwork issue somewhere down the chain, and this is going to be resolved relatively quickly. BUT, if it isn't... you have to protect yourself at all times just like you are dealing with a big, stupid dog that might possibly have rabies.

I'm pulling for you, hope it turns out to be nothing.

-urban
Thanks man! I think everything should be fine too but i will be taking precautions

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Re: The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Post by Resolute » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:53 am

Damn man, sucks to be you. Good advice in this thread though... lawyer up and record EVERYTHING. I also hope you wrote in detail everything that happened on your first encounter so that you can remember it and refer back to it at a later date if necessary.

Subscribing to see what happens.

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