Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

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moab
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Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:56 am

This company just won a huge case in court. Giving them the right to upload digital plans for any gun. This guys been around for awhile, and is an uber 2nd ammendment supporter. But winning this case has been a long battle and is a huge win for free speech and gun rights.

https://www.wired.com/story/a-landmark- ... -diy-guns/
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by raptor » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:16 am

Thank you that is a great article. I had heard about the case but I had did not know about the resolution of it.

I can see where a lot of firearm parts including frames can be made by polymers now but the question I've always had deals with ammunition.
I imagined ammunition cases can be printed, projectiles can be made with lead molds. However primers can't be printed Clear Lake powder can't be printed.

What about barrels slides in other high-pressure items?

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:46 am

moab wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:56 am
This company just won a huge case in court.
we didn't win in court, the DoJ settled. small difference, but it is there.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:12 am

My favorite part. https://www.dailywire.com/news/32872/do ... stigiacomo
TheDailyWire wrote: Moreover, in the settlement, "the government expressly acknowledges that non-automatic firearms up to .50-caliber – including modern semi-auto sporting rifles such as the popular AR-15 and similar firearms – are not inherently military," notes a press release from the Second Amendment Foundation. In other words, the handful of liberal states that currently ban "assault weapons" like the AR-15, such as New York state via the SAFE Act, could potentially face legal challenges.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:31 pm

Sounds like a solid win for gun builders.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:51 pm

it is in the short term. the long term depends on who shoots what, and the spin of it all.

I can see it also leading to the outlawing of home made firearms. there are already some pushing for it.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:09 pm

emclean wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:51 pm
it is in the short term. the long term depends on who shoots what, and the spin of it all.

I can see it also leading to the outlawing of home made firearms. there are already some pushing for it.
We can't quietly sit by while our home building rights are taken away. We (meaning myself. I manufacture and sell building supplies and tools. And the gun building community in general.) Has to do something. The general feeling in the community has always been keep quiet and they'll go away. Which is little more than sticking our heads in the sand.

At least this guy fought for what is the next logical conclusion in gun building. Guys already have cnc machines. This is just a smaller cheaper version. It may publicize our work in general. But there is little difference between building a legal firearm and building any other legal object. Anyone can build something legal or illegal. Its why we have laws.

I'm as upset by the ignorance of the general public as i am with the build community. For not even trying to educate the public. The largest gun building platform i belong too won't even allow political discussion. Let alone any activities than would fight for our cause.

But i hear what your saying. If you can build a big bad ghost gun you shouldn't be able to build at all. That's the general public right now. Sad state of affairs.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by NT2C » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:25 pm

IMHO, educating the public about legal home builds is more likely to turn around and bite the build community on the ass than benefit it. The further out of the public eye such things are kept, the better. All educating the public is going to do is bring it to the attention of those working to restrict gun rights who may be completely unaware that it is a legal activity or that people engage in it. The most likely consequence I see, again, this is just my opinion, is that the push to register all firearms on the state or local level becomes a lot stronger.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:38 am

KJ4VOV wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:25 pm
IMHO, educating the public about legal home builds is more likely to turn around and bite the build community on the ass than benefit it. The further out of the public eye such things are kept, the better. All educating the public is going to do is bring it to the attention of those working to restrict gun rights who may be completely unaware that it is a legal activity or that people engage in it. The most likely consequence I see, again, this is just my opinion, is that the push to register all firearms on the state or local level becomes a lot stronger.
I wasn't suggesting publicly so much as lobbying efforts. Or at least give to another org that lobbies for things like that. I agree with you though. The public is over "ghost guns". A huge fear they didn't even know they had. ;)
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by Asymetryczna » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:16 am

My opinion aligns with KJ4VOV. Agree too that lobby efforts are sorely needed when/where there is pressure but "educating the public" today largely means competing with those that have their own self interest in mind, meaning Online: followers and likes and such.

Don't believe some guy on the internet; do the research yourself. Take twitter for instance. In less than 2 minutes you can compare the reach of say -the NRA- versus that of the Hogg boy or that family with the enormous hineys :\
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 am

The Public Responds to gun education attempts by Lobby.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:45 am

IMO making your own firearms mirrors the bump stock.
as long as the general public was unaware of it, there wasn't a problem. once they were, the emotional arguments were rolled out, and they are now in the cross hairs.

Cody Wilson stood up and flipped the anti-gunners. proclaiming that he wants to prove that laws are unable to regulate things in the modern world. he is a crypto-anarchist, and has publicly stated that he wants to use technology to make laws unenforceable. that isn't going to sit well with many.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by flybynight » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:00 pm

I don't think that's what he has in mind at all. It doesn't matter if the laws are unenforceable. The law against murder, rape and theft are unenforceable and can only be applied after the fact. I think what he attempted to prove and have upheld by the judicial branch ruling is that home building a firearm is and has always been legal and it doesn't matter if the process is by digital, written blueprints or are from the memory of skilled craftsman
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by NT2C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:03 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:00 pm
I don't think that's what he has in mind at all. It doesn't matter if the laws are unenforceable. The law against murder, rape and theft are unenforceable and can only be applied after the fact. I think what he attempted to prove and have upheld by the judicial branch ruling is that home building a firearm is and has always been legal and it doesn't matter if the process is by digital, written blueprints or are from the memory of skilled craftsman
...and highly frowned upon by high school machine shop teachers.

No need to ask me how I know 8-)
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:57 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:00 pm
I don't think that's what he has in mind at all. It doesn't matter if the laws are unenforceable. The law against murder, rape and theft are unenforceable and can only be applied after the fact. I think what he attempted to prove and have upheld by the judicial branch ruling is that home building a firearm is and has always been legal and it doesn't matter if the process is by digital, written blueprints or are from the memory of skilled craftsman
That's it exactly. Which is why this is such a big win for home builders. It doesn't matter how you manufacture the firearm. The fact is that it's legal. Further they detailed "military" type arms. And stated that the AR15 was not one. That's a huge win going further than just home building. I'm sure it will be cited in future disputes. If it can.

I'm no lawyer. And may be way off base. But it seems there is also case law at play here. In the form of Americans freedom to make anything they want as long as it's legal. Be it a car, plane, boat, picnic table, gun - what have you. I guess what I'm saying is I think there are greater laws and rulings that are affected by this. And major industries don't want their corps affected by laws saying you can't manufacture something legal yourself. I may be wrong here - like I said. But it seems like beyond the freedom of speech and 2nd amendment rights there are far reaching business interests at play. That if they said it wasn't legal to make this legal object yourself. It would mean many other things would be illegal to make yourself too. Or could be argued that way. Again, were talking about making things that are legal already - and making it yourself. But again, this is just a very loose theory that I could be very wrong about. I've just always wondered how "making something that is legal yourself" and banning that - would affect other areas of the law.

IMHO this guy did what every other member of the gun building community would not. He took on the system, based on sound legal advice, and won us all a huge battle. I agree publicizing this is problematic. But at some point you have to stand up for your rights. And fight. Just sitting with our heads in the sand is no way to keep the hobby alive. Or more importantly our 2nd amendment rights alive.

There tends to be a common issue with gun owners. In that they are unlikely to protest anything. Protest seems to be a dirty word to people that are normally quiet, nice, law abiding citizens that happen to own guns. Maybe it's a right/left thing. I don't know. But everybody and their baby will protect and work to get gun free zones or whatever the flavor of the week is. But way fewer people are willing to get organized and do anything about gun rights. Even when the vast majority of Americans believe in gun rights. It's just a weird phenomenon. (Which I blame the media for. Or at least most of it. Who wants to be shamed on nationial TV? Who wants that known to their employer? I've worked at places where I would have gotten let go if my gun opinions were let known.)

Everytime I bring this up in a gun forum. The idea of doing anything to help fight for our rights it gets poo poo'd right away. Maybe it's paranoia. Maybe it's not wanting to go against the tide. Again, I don't know. It's just interesting to me. That Americans will not fight for gun rights the same way others will fight for gun control. I'm not right or left wing. I think independently on single issues for the most part. But I was raised with guns. Spent a tour in the MArine Corps. And have never understood that reluctance to protest anything.

I'd love to see a mass, peaceful protest for gun rights. Without anyone actually carrying their guns with them. Which I think would send an even stronger/clearer message. Or the same kind of phone campaigns used by the gun control advocates. I know the NRA urges it's members to do that. But it just isn't going to happen. And I don't believe in everything the NRA does. But you have to admit they are a strong lobby. If not, many times misdirected.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by Asymetryczna » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:39 pm

Not off-base MOAB. By lobbying I refer to influencing lawmakers/decision makers. 'Influencing the public' is an entirely different thing and often involves whimsy. Wanted to add that there are simple ways to "protest" as well that does not involve marches, bullhorns or bumper stickers.

For example, the media, anti's and etc. are quick to point out when there is a downturn in the purchasing of hunting/fishing licenses every year. I buy them whether I am going to be here or not. Even anti's I know say, "Yeah, but you're a hunter." And hunters and fisherman, most anyway, are dedicated conservationists whether they know it or not. It's a huge industry. Business drives this country. Think of it as a grey protest, as opposed to red or blue.

Homebuilding is DIY and, to me at least, seems as American as what the Constitution is intended to protect.
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:56 am

flybynight wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:00 pm
I don't think that's what he has in mind at all. It doesn't matter if the laws are unenforceable. The law against murder, rape and theft are unenforceable and can only be applied after the fact. I think what he attempted to prove and have upheld by the judicial branch ruling is that home building a firearm is and has always been legal and it doesn't matter if the process is by digital, written blueprints or are from the memory of skilled craftsman
He very intentionally named his first printed gun the liberator, after the WWII project. here is why...
And the idea was – it was a psychological operation first. The War Department, GM [General Motors], stamped a bunch of metal pistols, single shot 45 ACP metal pistols, and the idea was they would airdrop them over occupied Europe. Now the goal wasn’t really to get the citizens to actually do the fight for them. It was to basically instill a fear in the occupation that any citizen could have a firearm, and might be a location of resistance. So to really undermine their morale and then challenge [them physically]. So I thought this was the same thing, and the most fitting possible name. And in the most, I don’t know, theoretic way of achieving the event, we would call it the Liberator, we would revisit the concept and complete it. So now we put the gun, considered ‘2.0’, the gun was released to the Internet, and if you go back and look at my video I’m bringing back the WWII imagery. And this is just my kind of winking at history.
from the same interview
But I think it really hinges more upon the equality principle. And this is why we were able to shoehorn anarchism into it in the end....
source. http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/201 ... lson-full/

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:58 am

I'm no lawyer. And may be way off base. But it seems there is also case law at play here
I am not a lawyer either, but I think that to be case law, it has to be adjudicated. a settlement doesn't establish case law.

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by Dabster » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:06 pm

I'm no expert but I could see AR-15 lowers being made this way. Besides a goofy single shot, has anyone designed a modern 3-d printed firearm?
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:21 pm

Dabster wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:06 pm
I'm no expert but I could see AR-15 lowers being made this way. Besides a goofy single shot, has anyone designed a modern 3-d printed firearm?
In the videos he shows AR's he's built with the machine.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by moab » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:28 pm

emclean wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:58 am
I'm no lawyer. And may be way off base. But it seems there is also case law at play here
I am not a lawyer either, but I think that to be case law, it has to be adjudicated. a settlement doesn't establish case law.
I didn't mean this settlement was case law. But that if they'd decided any other way it would go against case law establishing the fact that citizens can build their own legal objects. Which i assume is already on the books. Basically i think there is a fundemantal rule of law - be it judgment, law what have you. That is much more far reaching than this settlement. And that they can't go against. Maybe its constitutional. Maybe its just corp backed judgments. Idk. But i think bigger factors are at play. If they had not settled in his favor it would have opened a door to tear down existing laws that are far more reaching. Like maybe if you judge that you can't build a legal firearm. Then you can't also build a car. Or further reaches of freedom of speech would be torn down. Im no expert. This is just poorly worded theory. Lol.

I actually know two very good attys. Ill ask them. And post back. Its very interesting.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by emclean » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:31 am

Cody & gun control
https://twitter.com/Radomysisky/status/ ... 2017337344
I actually know two very good attys. Ill ask them. And post back. Its very interesting.
have you had an opportunity to ask?

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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by Halfapint » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:59 pm

The release was blocked by a Judge yesterday. However from what I've read the files have been uploaded. I'm at work only getting information from a feed.
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Re: Downloadable gun manufacturing files.

Post by SCBrian » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:34 pm

The files have been uploaded for years, it's only a thing now because people noticed.
It unfortunately goes back to what emclean said, it's in the public's eye now, and their fears are being stoked.
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